| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 616 Registered: 10-2002  |
A recent discussion gave me another topic to post on my Sabbath-rest blog: http://sabbath-rest.blogspot.com/2006/12/life-without-law-finding-rest-from.html Finding rest from the "fear of sinning" is a big part of His daily Sabbath-rest, I believe. I basically copied my comments from the original thread here (now in the Theology section under "Chuck Missler & the Sabbath"). I could've written better... there is a real "heart understanding" to this that I couldn't quite put my finger on. Anyhow, I pray that somehow the truth of His loving rest shines through. I can't put my finger on it or completely articulate it, but I pray that the Spirit will get through.  In His rest, Ramone | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 184 Registered: 9-2006  |
Ramone. I struggled with this question for many years, in fact I sometimes still struggle with it. I am at all times honest with myself, where it comes to that, what my church believes in unimportant for I know that the church will not stand at my side when I see God in his perfection, other peoples salvation will not suffice on that day and I have to answer the question for myself. Adventist do not hold a corner on legalism. What caused me to struggle was my own imperfection, I know that I have not attained perfection, yes I have been able to get rid of many undesirable things and yet there is still what I call ìBaggage leftî. Paul fought the same battle, listen to him as he anguished not before man but before his God (Rom 7:21 KJV) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (Rom 7:22 KJV) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (Rom 7:23 KJV) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (Rom 7:24 KJV) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Rom 7:25 KJV) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. His ìdelightî is in God, his undelight (Bad word but good word for it) was the ìBaggageî of the flesh. Itís no different with you or me, we no longer delight in sin, it has become a affront to us and yet I myself know it is ever present, what is a large problem with me may be no problem to you at all. Does it mean that I am to yield my spirit to these things? How could I when I detest them? So like Paul, with my mind serve God and with my flesh serve sin. I know it sounds like double talk but it is not. I donít delight in my flesh, my delight is in God which is the very reason I spend time with you folks, I could be doing something else but it delights my spirit to write to my brothers and sisters. What to do with the imperfections? Donít they trouble me? Of course they do, I detest them. So finding myself in this condition I find my rest in the Lord Jesus, not the flesh, he is my rest, without him there is no rest. You are right it is a spiritual thing and must be seen with the eyes of the spirit. So the Lord Christ has become my salvation and has set my spirit free to soar with his spirit this morning, oh, that we would begin to soar his great heights, far above this flesh we remain in. The more we fight the flesh the more it wins, let me explain, if we are continually taken up with fighting our flesh, it leaves God out and the flesh again becomes king, do you see what I mean? Whereas if we trust in Christ that he did indeed pay for all sins, then sin is overcome and peace and rest takes its place and again the Lord is surly King and we give him praise that rightly belongs to him and my soul is lifted up to great heights, I tell you I just feel like ìgettin out and running around the house a time or twoî my spirit leaps with joy, oh what a savior!! Oh what rest and peace and joy in the holy spirit. So when I become plagued by these imperfections, my spiritual eyes look again at the cross and my spirit again finds it wings to soar and float on the thermals so to speak, far above this world this body is tied too and I am free, praise God! Now if you disagree with some points, by all means say so, so I can think about it and bring correction if need be. This is only meant as a commentary so maybe together with all of us here we can ìput our finger on itî. In his rest indeed. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 185 Registered: 9-2006 |
Now if you will pardon, I would like to approach this thing from another direction. As I said ìAdventist do not have a corner on legalism. My church denomination is big on holiness, just the other day I heard the remark from one of the denominations ministers ìNow I donít believe in eternal security, donít get me wrong, but I donít believe in eternal insecurity eitherî now what kind of gobledegook, ill thought out double talk is that I ask you? Their favorite scripture is (1 Pet 4:17 KJV) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? Peter makes this statement just before that (1 Pet 4:15 KJV) But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Now if one thinks that he is free to do these things he is just deceiving himself. God did not save us to evil doing but to joy and peace in the Holy Ghost. As I stated above I no longer delight in these things. So a Pentecostal preacher will preach a message from this text and the people go right back home and begin to fight with the imperfection in their lives to the point to where the flesh again says ìYep, I am the kingî and the poor bloke (or) blokett spends no time with the Lord, he is to busy fighting the flesh to pay attention to him and the flesh again gets enthroned. Am I right or wrong in this folks? And the old mouth goes right to work in there ìSister so and so we need to pray for brother so and so, he comes to church with his Bible every time the church door is open but do you know he smokes them old cigarettes? Aw Sista, let us praaaya, that the Lord will help him to be such as usinísî Of course they wouldnít think of returning his tithing too him or his generous gifting to support the church. And the poor bloke that gets caught in the middle is miserable because of visible habits. Now wouldnít it be a hoot if the unseen habits and failures were displayed on a screen before the whole church? No, I donít want that to happen because I donít want to know about them or yours either. God has accepted you and thatís all I need to be aware of. Now here is the case, Joe Bob breaks a leg, and the old Sister/brother says ì well I ainít a gonna go down there to Joe Bob.s, he chews that old tobbaca and smells like a hawgî ìI just ainít a gonna do it!! But then thereís the Brother or Sister that saysî Now sister/brother, I know Joe Bob spits a little and wears dirty overhauls but I love Joe Bob and I am going to mosey on down there and see if I can help out on the farm until he gets to where he can walk and take his family a few groceriesî. And so this kind hearted brother goes down there and slops Joe Bobs hogs and wades in cow pies until his brother is healed. Which inner man would you choose for your companion? Well maybe the Lord might just choose who he likes to commune with too, after all he is a person too. River | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 229 Registered: 8-2006 |
River, I've heard 1Peter 4:17 used as a proof text in the New Testament for the investigative judgement. I thought it interesting you said your denomination has used the same verse frequently. As you said, it's not only Adventists who have legalism in their ranks. Susan | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ya, but our legalism was better than your legalism (hehe). Or did I mean "worse"...oh, nevermind... | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3108 Registered: 3-2004  |
Shall we take a vote? Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 186 Registered: 9-2006 |
Right folks, just got home from morning worship and would you believe the Pastor preached on what was done at the Cross. You will not hear a legalist sermon from my Pastor but legalism is rampant within the denomination. So what this whole question boils down to is imperfection lying over against absolute perfection the way I see it. Can we attain perfection through legalism? No. Can we attain perfection by struggle with the flesh? Again I would have to say no. So that leaves us with only one option it seems to me, Christ Jesus our perfection, so we try the law and are forced to lay it aside and look to Christ and there find rest in him. We look at the law and see no peace because we know we cannot trust ourselves. We look to our own holiness and again find no peace because; again we know that we cannot trust ourselves. At least if we are honest. So we are forced to look to Jesus, either he paid for our sin (took them upon himself) or he didnít, if he didnít we are still in our sins and stand condemned. So we must lay ourselves completely upon him, trusting completely in him for there is no other and there is no middle ground. Are you afraid you will sin if you lay aside the law and trust in Jesus Ramone? Believe me when I tell you, you will but didnít you sin in the law? You have heard the term ìPay it forward?î I would have to think that Jesus ìPaid it forwardî else you in a heapa trouble boy. He is not going to return to the cross; he worked and now rests with the father. We lay our work in his work and now rest with the father. Now I make this seem complicated for you folk that like complicated. I can reduce it down to three little words. Trust in Jesus. Or even break it down further. Jesus. As I took communion this morning I again felt unworthy of my Lord and as I waited to take it I remembered the scripture about the widowís mite where the poor widow put in all that she had and I thought Lord I give you all that I have. Due to my own imperfections itís just a bent penny, but itís all I have. I am learning to lean on Jesus and to rest in his rest and let his love have its perfect way. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3112 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, I started learning to lean on Jesus while in my 12 step program and did not realize it until lately. Do I do it perfectly, every day??? NO!!! But every day I learn more. I'll tell you, leaning on Jesus is much more fun, exciting, rewarding than leaning on me. I disappoint myself frequently. Jesus never disappoints me. So, I am learning to lean on Him for everything, no matter how small or big. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 187 Registered: 9-2006 |
Diana, Quote: Do I do it perfectly, every day??? NO!!! But every day I learn more. That is so real, no we donít it perfectly but in the learning to lean process we also learn honesty with ourselves and God and as we do that he sometimes brings things out in our souls we didnít even know existed, things buried there that he wants to heal. At least that has been my experience. And the peace and calm that he replaced it with is phenomenal. He is helping me to be sufficient in him. When we learn to accept ourselves and to be at peace with ourselves even though we are not perfect and know he has accepted us we are really learning to trust him with our very souls. You are right there Diana, itís a lot more funner than leaning on ourselves. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5046 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, good points. Diana, your experience of learning to lean on Jesus is exactly what it's all about. When we are in Christ, we no longer deal directly with our sin; instead, we submit it to Jesus. I'm learning (very slowly) that when I am tempted, if I ask Jesus to show me the truth and root me in reality and change my heart, that method works much better than trying to submerge the impulse. The hardest part of all this is choosing to submit to knowing God's will at that moment. Usually my emotions want to wallow in my self pity or indulgence or defensiveness or critical spirit, etc. The choice to submit to Jesus instead of to continue in my rationalization is the hard part. But it works; it takes the struggle right out of my own will and puts me in submission to Jesus instead of in struggle with my own sin. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 622 Registered: 10-2002 |
A comment Andrew Murray made in one of his books once really woke me up with a nice start. It went something like, "And let us approach Christ in prayer with confidence that, with such a Teacher as He, we cannot fail to learn." His ability to teach me is stronger & more powerful than my ability to screw things up, even myself. |
