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Message |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 202
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 5:47 pm: |     |
Susan,
These "profound truths" Colleen has brought to us are "Stunning" aren't they? It has helped me tremendously. Got to get ready for church.
River
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Cforrester
Registered user
Username: Cforrester
Post Number: 56
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 8:33 am: | |
River, I share your observation about the lack of knowledge of "the basic truths of the Reformation". I would use language like Paul did about the Galatians. It astonishes me. It perplexes me. It befuddles me. I guess that's one reason I love the movie Luther - it gives an insight to just a sample of the issues that spawned the reformation.
Your #2 item is paramount to experiencing Christ. While I could see someone with some confusion over the trinity still experience Christ fully if #2 was settled, I think having #1 settled while not understanding #2 leads to all sorts of wrong conclusions and mental conditions. I'd be interested to hear how you feel those two are interrelated; I suspect you're on to something there.
Colleen, I love your circular logic/double talk description about the Sabbath. So true. Great thread. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 203
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 10:03 am: | |
You have said that you have an unusually discerning spiritóand from your posts, I totally believe you. I believe your confusion about them and your self-doubt has been part of the spiritual battle waged to keep them in deception, to keep you from perceiving what was true about them. But God didn't leave you "blinded"óHe awoke the question in you about whether you might be dealing with a spirit. Their spirit is a deceiving spiritóand it successfully befuddled you for a while. This experience you have had gives you much greater insight into what is going on with them. What you have felt in relationship to them is very similar to how they feel about their own relationship with God. Have I done enough? What is truth? What do I need to know?
Colleen,
I know that what I am looking at in your previous post is truth, deep penetrating truth. What you said above there makes perfect sense, I guess you could term it ìbackwashî from the thoughts and emotions of those around me.
In an earlier post I told a little of what itís like to live with this ìconditionî and it was suggested by Raven, I think it was that I should maybe consider this ìconditionî as to possibly the being the gift of discernment, at least I think that is what she was referring too, and I have been looking at that possibility, now I know I have one of the gifts of the spirit, I wonít say which one, it really doesnít matter, only too say it is one of the gifts spoken of in 1 Cor 12:6-11 and I can tell you that God does did not announce too me that he was giving this gift or how to use it.
Now is the ìotherî the gift of discernment of spirits spoken of in verse 10?
I just do not know for sure, after this statement was made I began to try to look back over the years when this first started.
I remember I was sitting in church on a normal Sunday morning and I was deep into worship and out of the blue I heard thoughts clearly and distinctly, the thing, whatever it was, was cussing God up one side and down the other and the first thing I thought was ìMy God I am lost, I just got unsavedî and I looked around and nobody was looking at me and I was petrified, when the church service was over I went home begging God to please save me again, that Sunday night I believe it was, that the Holy Spirit used me in the other gift and I felt so relieved because I then knew that I had not ìgot unsavedî that morning or if I did I got ìresavedî after morning worship.
I was afraid to tell my Pastor or anyone about this stuff so I just plowed on in my own independent way. You know us males, never ask directions.
Now in retrospect it is so comical, but I was inexperienced in the things of God and certainly not mature at all in the word.
In looking back I think it was from that day on that I entered into this ìconditionî of being able to see, pick up on (whatever you can call it) the thoughts, emotions of others around me. You might call it ìbackwashî.
A few months later my Pastors put me up there to preach the Sunday night message, my pastors believed in training young people up for the ministry and that was the reason I was up there. Now as I was bringing my message I was looking out over a full house, there was a lady sitting in the very back row and I could read her thoughts and it was a spirit of jealousy, ìWhatís he doing up there?î and all sorts of stuff was emanating from that woman. You talk about the heebe jeebes, try that one on.
But I had no other choice but to soldier on and I just looked at the ones who I knew I would receive friendly fire from after that. A person repented and received Christ that night. No feather in my hat, it was Gods miracle, not my poor sermon. It was not as if I was up there gleeping about myself, I had never spoken before that many people in my life and I certainly didnít leave there wanting more of that.
I honestly do not know whether this is a spiritual gift of discernment or not. Or just what it is, I do know that it can be very troubling to my spirit at times such as when being around Adventist and I think the thing that troubles my spirit the most is the lack of confidence in their own salvation and the constant pressure on their lives. This just grieves my spirit to no end and leaves me deeply troubled. Itís nothing they say, it just emanates from them is all I can tell you.
I do want to say this, from my perspective the gifts of Spirit doesnít give one an ìupî on anything, it just brings responsibility with it.
I have come too the point to where I just must depend on the Holy Spirit entirely if I am to have any peace of mind at all and you have helped me to come too that and I am deeply indebted to you all.
River
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River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 204
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 11:24 am: | |
Cforrester,
Quote:
Your #2 item is paramount to experiencing Christ. While I could see someone with some confusion over the trinity still experience Christ fully if #2 was settled, I think having #1 settled while not understanding #2 leads to all sorts of wrong conclusions and mental conditions. I'd be interested to hear how you feel those two are interrelated; I suspect you're on to something there.
Of course what I was referring to was the minimal requirements for one to take on the name ìChristianî.
For instance if one is born in America he would probably say ìI am Christianî even though he may not know Christ. The word Christian though from a Bible perspective takes on whole new meaning and assumptions. So even though one may claim he is a ìChristianî does not give him the right nor privilege to call himself by that name and there are gaggles of people who do just that.
Now over against this was my questioning of whether the Adventist (at large) is a Christian or is he counterfeit. One who takes on the name of Christian but is in fact, not Christian is a counterfeit.
So again my quote: ìNow I would like to submit some bare essentials that I think one would have to believe in order to call himself Christian. I have attempted to break down the essentials in its simplest form.
1. Believe that Christ died and rose the third day. 1 Cor 15:1 and Romans 10: 9,10
2. Sola feida (think I spelled that right) faith alone.
3. Christ deity.
4. Absolute and complete atonement for our sins at the cross.
O.K. so here is my take on this and how they relate.
Without #2 number #1 is no good, it would have no purpose.
Without #3 number #1 and #2 would be no good. Again, no purpose.
Without #4 number #1, #2, #3 is no good.
The problem is not in building the thing that I got stacked up there, the problem would be to dismantle it once you build it.
For example lets look at it as a four legged stool (sort of anyway).
If you add the Adventist works to it you knock the number #4 leg off and the center doesnít hold.
If you subtract number #3 the center wonít hold and so on.
They are all interrelated and complete.
What is your take on it?
River
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Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans
Post Number: 248
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 4:49 pm: | |
I think I now know what I was feeling last night as I read Colleen's post. I saw Colleen, that what you said had so perfectly described my personality, experience and state of being which I was both born with and adapted to by my environment and lived under until I did two things simultaneously: I left Adventism and went into therapeutic Christian counseling.
I have said before that I believe Adventism has a great attractiveness to certain people, many like me who live with burdens of self doubt, perfectionism and feelings of inferiority. I think cultic systems attract the same type of people (I'm a convert, remember) because of the feelings of specialness and uniqueness that such a system provides-until the cognitive dissonance sets in (if it does and that's not always the case). Until then, if you can bear up, you can stuff down those burdens. Even if you can't, you think it's normal, because you yourself are dysfunctional. The true spirit of deception that undergirds this cultic system is so subtle because you think it's how things are supposed to be, and you don't always question that status quo.
Anyway, I guess it's been so long since that has been me, because of the Lord healing my mind, spirit, and personality, that I knew it deep down, but couldn't put my finger on it. What stunned me and left me speechless was seeing a shadow of what I used to be, but no longer recognized. It was amazing! I praise God He has freed me from that!
River, I believe what you are describing is intuitive at the least, and probably discernment. I have a co-worker who is a Christian and at times throughout her life, when she is around people, touches them, or sees them, she gets feelings, she sees things like a darkness surrounding them or she feels a spiritual force of some kind. She doesn't talk about it much to anyone, but when her office mate and she were talking to me one morning and they told me this, I said whoah. My co-worker said when she first met me, she saw a bright presence around me. She told me that was God's light. I myself am very intuitive,and pick up on feelings, emotions and "vibes" of others, but I've never experienced anything quite like that
Who is to say what God gifts us with? His gifts are to be used for His glory, and He dispenses them to whom He chooses.
Blessings,
Susan |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 205
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 7:36 pm: | |
Susan,
I think what you are describing about your co-worker is a form of spirit-ism or to put it more bluntly, a self imposed form of witchcraft, they use the name of God freely but I think if you probed deeper into her life I doubt if her bible theology would hold up. What I am describing is usually accompanied by burden and a deep need to pray for someone or a situation.
In fact I donít remember a time when the need for prayer for someone or some situation did not accompany it.
Now I do not know the person nor am I judging her but stop to think about it, if you have the Holy Spirit dwelling within you, you had no need for her to tell you anything, remember the Bible text where a girl started following Paul around Acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation.
They were indeed servants of God but she was not and they had no need of her assistance in any way. Now your co-worker may not act in such a way as this girl did but at the opportune time she will probably tell people something about themselves thereby influencing them in some way.
Your sufficiency is ultimately in Christ Jesus and you had no need whatsoever of the information she gave you, sure it might have doctored you ego a little. Personally if I meet someone who sees a bright presence around me I am going to look for a fire extinguisher or an exit.
Now she says she is a Christian and who am I to say she is not but I will say that it has the marks if divination.
I do hope that I have not confused you in any way for that was not my intention so I want to clarify a dab, I think it is one of the gifts Paul mentions I just canít pin point it, there are several gifts mentioned, I am not sure that I have handled it correctly but I know of no time when I mishandled it either.
I had rather be uncertain about it than let myself get in the way so I havenít ever prayed about it or ask God to show me. I probably should have come to think of it but I didnít.
Quote:His gifts are to be used for His glory, and He dispenses them to whom He chooses.
That is correct and he will not share his glory with another.
Now I have shared some of my experienceís for the purpose of letting you folk know the these spiritual forces are real and not to build myself up as having any special abilities that someone else doesnít and I wanted to make that clear. If I had special abilities I would have seen what Colleen saw about the situation, it just goes to show she has a maturity that I do not have. Me, I spend most of my time just stumbling around until someone helps me get straightened out. If I spent more time in prayer I probably wouldnít suffer near as much, I do know one thing, if it is a gift he has given me he will not recant unless I try to take his glory and I donít intend to do that.
The problem with Adventism is that I think I does attempt to take a way his glory and it has had me weirded out for some time now, it just gives me a lowdown junkyard dog bad feeling and thatís leaving the EGW stuff out, if you put that in it gets worse but with you folks help I am beginning to be able to cope.
Blessings back onya.
River
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River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 206
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 10:41 am: | |
You know, I just feel a need to try writing about this Spirit business since I guess I was the one who brought it up.
I have really never tackled the subject in a meaningful way but I will give it a shot.
Yes, a spirit of deceit is at work in Adventism, it is real and it is active and the Holy Spirit of God reveals these things but what is revealed can be backed up by the Bible.
However they cannot be visibly seen, so where does that leave us?
Well, we have the gifts mentioned in 1 Cor 12:1-12 so we are not defenseless.
As I mentioned before I have had at least one of these gifts for a period of about 33 years, thereís no use saying which one it is here, again I canít see it matters.
The point I want to make here is that in my experience, every single time this gift has been used, without fail, it was Gods timing, and for his purpose I had nothing to do with it except to yield my will to the Holy Spirits will at the time just as in Romans 12:11 ìas he willsî I do not carry this around like a side arm or something or better words might be that I stand ready, to me it is like being on standby for God whenever and where ever he chooses.
Now we had an earlier thread about the gifts of the Spirit and I really donít want to get off into that subject again unless someone really wants to hack it out.
Now due too this thing with Adventist and due too what I suspect at this time that God has placed within me the gift of discerning of spirits and I intend to pray about it and try to work it out but that may take time.
What I want to write about is folks about getting off into any form of spirit-ism, I really want to caution about that. There is a huge difference in operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit of God and spirit-ism and the number one big difference is that the Holy Spirit is the operator of his ìgiftsî, Paul used this word to describe something, I will, and I think, without taking liberties with Gods word, term them ìadditional responsibilitiesî that God, in his wisdom and placed within us for his purpose and his glory.
Where as spirit-ism is always accompanied by the human operator and will not be within the bounds of scripture. It may begin with the looks of the scriptural gifts but is human-ism. One cannot force the Holy Spirit to do his own bidding through the gifts.
It is a fact that sometimes honest people who really do desire to be used of God mistake what is human-ism for the gifts Paul spoke of and make a mess of their own lives as well as the lives of others, more especially in the Charismatic type churches. I have seen people acting out of ignorance, interrupt worship service or interrupt the peaceful lives of others; believe it or not a good Christian can survive rebuke or correction, admit his fault and proceed on. Adventist donít have a corner on ignorance but a good Pastor will throttle these sorts of goings on and council them or something to that nature.
Now I do not, on the other hand want to discourage anyone from the Gifts they are gifts in the sense of that God will bless you down to your toes if he has given you one and you yield to the Holy Spirit for his purpose, you cannot out give God.
So in dealing with this Spirit of deceit thing we are not left defenseless, we have the scriptures and the Holy Spirit within us and according to James 1:1-8 we can ask wisdom and it will be granted if we ask in faith believing.
It does seem to me that almost everyone on this forum has a ìrow to hoeî and many have been hoeing it for years and years.
I did want to write about this and I hope it what I have said makes sense to you. Many of you are ìgun shyî about Sabbath; I am ìgun shyí about misuse of the gifts. Guess we are all ìgun shyî about something or other.
River
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5076
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 12:57 pm: | |
Very interesting, River. I understand what you mean about being gun-shy of the misuse of the gifts. That makes complete sense. I really believe that God turns into strengths the areas in which we have been most deceived and wounded when we finally admit our deep brokenness and give the wound up to Him.
My take on 1 Corinthians 12 is that every believer has been given a gift or gifts of the Spirit. And I completely agree with you that they are for God's glory, and He is in charge of them. I even have wondered if sometimes He might give certain gifts to His children in certain situations and times of their lives because they are needed in the current circumstances.
Sometimes I even think we are not completely aware of the spiritual gifts God gives us. They seem so "organic" to our existence that we aren't always aware that we are actually exercising a gift of the Spirit within the body of Christ. I do believe that God sometimes builds spiritual gifts into us at the very places where we have been most brokenóand where we have allowed Him to bring us to repentance and healing.
Coming from an Adventist background, I believe one of the hardest things for those of us who have been weaned within a spirit of deceit is to allow God to work among us and minister to us through our fellow believers. We have a tendencey to be suspicious or even arrogant, leading with a feeling of "well, THAT can't be right. Where do they get their authority (or ideas, or confidence, or insight...etc), anyway?"
But as you said, River, God does bless us as we allow Him to build the gifts of His Spirit into us. And you're rightówe have no business swaggering our gifts around as if we are "all that". God uses us as He will, and He glorifies Himself through everything we give to Him.
Colleen |
Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans
Post Number: 249
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 4:35 pm: | |
Hey River,
When my co-worker told me what she did, I immediately thought about psychic phenomenon and New Age "aura" type manifestations. I really didn't place much thought into her statement that she saw a light around me. She has said when she was around someone evil their face would be hidden by blackness.
I have never, ever asked her about that or want to talk with her again about those things. She is a charismatic Presbyterian (ha) who speaks in tongues and she listens all day long at work to speakers like Joyce Meyer. Now while I am not disparaging Joyce Meyer or my friend, I think you have a very good point about humanism or some type of spiritism.
Anyway, thank you for your concern. I didn't mean to compare your experience to hers in any way. I happened to think of it when you posted what you did.
Susan |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 209
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 5:35 pm: | |
I knew what you meant Susan and I don't know the lady, I'm sure she has a kind heart, it just smacks of humanism or ignorance, maybe a little of both and maybe I am altogether wrong, although I think your first instincts were probably right.
By the way I didn't know there were any Charismatic Presbyterians, now see there I learned something new today, who says an old dog can't learn? |
Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans
Post Number: 250
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 5:47 pm: | |
She does have a kind heart, but she is a little different.  I like her, though. From what I understand there are charismatics in every denomination, even Adventism. I had a very good friend from my home church who used to say what the Adventist Church needs is the Holy Spirit! She was a tongues speaker and had a radio program where she preached. I went to the station one day to hear and watch her, and she preached just like one of the old timey Pentecostal preachers! It was great.
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River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 211
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 6:16 pm: | |
The Pastor that came to our house and prayed for me the night God delivered me of alcohol was an old timey brush arbor, Oklahoma, Pentecostal preacher, when that woman prays the rafters start shaking and the every devil in hell starts looking for a hole to pull in over the top of them. now there is the real McCoy. and they don't much exist anymore. I miss her terribly at times, she took the time to nurse me and spoon fed me on the word of God and the things of God, I had forgotten how to live, she would council me night and day, she is getting up there in age now. The best. They just don't come any better.
River
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