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River
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Username: River

Post Number: 190
Registered: 9-2006


Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 7:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On thinking about my Adventist friends and acquaintances, I stated before that on the exterior they walk, talk, and act like any other Christian in day to day communication with them.
Their particular beliefs or mine is never discussed, therefore one cannot come to an understanding of Seventh Day Adventism through normal discussion with them, its almost as if it is hidden, it took me almost three years of studying them to come to the conclusion on whether to declare it a cult or just another Christian denomination with odd beliefs. (I did not know Dale Ratzlaff or any formers, I later found Dales webpage and sent him my analyses on Adventism and he was kind enough to respond. He responded in the affirmative and his statement ìyour analysis is graced with the Holy Spiritî or words to that effect, I think that was last spring). I lost my original analysis.
So now I have come to the point now that I must ask the question, yes he walks, talks, acts like a Christian but is he a Christian or is he counterfeit?
So, in view of that, in order to fit the description of Christian, what separates a Christian, in other words what beliefs force you to set aside other beliefs?
Now I would like to submit some bare essentials that I think one would have to believe in order to call himself Christian. I have attempted to break down the essentials in its simplest form.
1. Believe that Christ died and rose the third day. 1 Cor 15:1 and Romans 10: 9,10
2. Sola feida (think I spelled that right) faith alone.
3. Christ deity.
4. Absolute and complete atonement for our sins at the cross.
Now I would like to make it clear that I in no way think a person would have to have a knowledge of the above in order to be a born again Christian, the difference between a born again Christian and anyone else is rebirth. My father once said ìyou cannot see the spirit enter or leaveî and I think he was correct.
From rebirth onward there is a maturing process.
One can hold wrong beliefs and still be a born again Christian.
Now I feel I must tell you my own view point toward this in order to clarify my position.
I firmly believe in the obligation to evangelize in light of John 3:16,17,18 and in light of what we call the great commission ìgo into all the worldî I also think that some Christians, due to belief in ìelectionî take it too far right and say ìwell, God knows the elect and he will save his ìElectî so donít worry about it and themselves failing in personal evangelization.
Do I believe in ìElectionî? Yes I do. But I just have to put it down to one of the mysteries of God and I cannot take it further.
In fact, in view of my own salvation experience, I went from an absolute alcoholic, in the throws of drunkenness to church attendance every time they opened the doors in a period of from Friday night stupor and Sunday morning and nobody told me anything about Jesus during that time period nor in the months prior to that that I can remember.
Nobody told me what I must do too be saved and I did not ask anyone, how could I, being in a drunken stupor. If I had any concerns at the time it was as to whether I had enough booze, bennys (Benzedrine) and grass (Mary Jane)to last me through Saturday.
That forces me to believe firmly in election.
In light of all that, if the Adventist at large is not Christian then I have an obligation to Christ to evangelize him according to the Bible and I take the Bible seriously. It is also my firm belief that my obligation to mission fields is whatever field I find myself in at the time and God hasnít lead me to China. I have to ask myself this morning, has Christ ask me to go and I said ìyes Lord, I will goî but didnít go?
If I ask some of you, do you think in your own heart that (at large) they are Christians, if so why and if not, why not?
None need feel obligated in any way to answer this post. Any input you might want to make will most certainly be appreciated either toward my personal views or toward my question no matter whether you agree or disagree. I am even uncertain as to whether I should plague you good people with this so if you donít want to be plagued, ignore it, if it challenges you in the proper way then feel free.
River
Mwh
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Post Number: 380
Registered: 4-2006


Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 9:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At large not, because most SDA's substitute Jesus with Satan, having him carrying / being punished for the sins of the saints.
I believe many SDA's get to know enough about Jesus that they are drawn to him, maybe even being born again, then led out of the "church" and into the real Church, the body of Jesus Christ.

Personally I believe we should evangelize them, ie telling them about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, having them realize that it is He that is punished for our sin in our place and not, at any time, the enemy.

In Christ
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 5059
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River, you are asking a question I have wrestled with repeatedly for several years. This question always leads me back to the same conclusion: God alone knows hearts. Actually, this very question is one that convinces me that election is true!

Here's my analysis. A great many Adventists are not truly Christians. They are very religious and sincere and careful in their observances, and they believe they are doing "right". They are very much like observant Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. They will even talk about Christ's sacrifice for them, righteousness by faith, etc. But they will NOT have that deep understanding that comes from knowing Jesus.

Othersóand here is where my conviction that election is true centersóare deeply Adventist. They do not know the true Jesus of the Bible any more than any other Adventistóbut they want to serve Him. I look back on my experience, and I believe I was in this category. I did not have an experience of knowing I was born again and alive in Christ until I left the denomination, but as a child I used to pray to serve God and that I would represent Jesus to people.

I believe there are Adventists who do desire to serve Jesus and know Himóbut they have no idea how to make that happen. I lived many years in deep frustration and anxiety because I could not feel at peace with God, yet I prayed to know Him for years. I believe that God did accept me as His child when I was youngóbut in His soveriegnty, He allowed me to remain in Adventism for quite some time before clearly removing the veil and letting me see the whole truth. At this point I believe I had to see and experience all that I did during those years in order to deeply understand what I was leaving and whyóand to be able to understand and help those who are now leaving.

The confusion lies in the fact that today, almost all Adventists in North America would agree with your four points. No contestótotal agreement. What you wouldn't knowóbecause they don't know it eitheróis that when they agree with those four things, they don't mean the same thing you mean. When Adventists agree with your four points, they don't understand that the Jesus they say is divine is really equal to the Father. They see Him as somehow weaker, more pitying, less wrathful, more sympathetic. Underlying their understanding are Ellen's descriptions of Him peading three time with the Father to allow him to die for sinful man before the Father would agree. Also underlying their understanding is their deep belief that Jesus is representing God in an ongoing battle with Satan which Satan might win if all of us didn't help Jesus win it. Jesus started out more on a level with Satan than with the Fatheróbut the Father exalted Him to His level.

While Adventists will tell you Jesus' atonement is complete, they still believe that they can fall out of salvation by rejecting the Sabbath. They will argue that's not true, but it's just words. They still believe it.

So, are they Christian? I believe that there are some who are born again because of their desire to know Jesus. There are a great many, however, who have not surrendered themselves to Jesus because their religion has innoculated them against a relationship. Because they have an intellectual belief that they are programmed to believe is The Truth, that belief system filters all Biblical truth for them.

I believe there are many Adventists resembling the soils in Matthew 13 that were shallow and also full of weeds. In neither soil did the seed grow to maturity. The gospel is appealing, and they can rationalize the gospel with their Adventism, getting a syncretistic religion that makes them feel quite good about their status. When people persistenlty refuse the light of God's truth, however, they grow harder and harder.

I know Adventists who defend Adventism ferociously using Jesus and grace and love for God as their arguments. But they are angry, brittle people who accuse us of being led by Satan instead of God. They do not know Jesus.

I believe Dale Ratzlaff is right when he says there are two kinds of Adventists: the deceived and the dishonest. Many are some combination of the two. The deceived may be very angry about truthóbut if they are Adventists because they believe it is truth, I believe they are often more willing to accept the real truth when they finally see who Jesus really is and what He really did.

The dishonest Adventists are very hard to reach, because they can rationalize everything. They're great with words, and they tend to adopt more theologically liberal views in order to bolster their own compromise between Adventism and the implications of Scripture.

Yes, some are Christiansóbut few really know the reality of freedom in Jesus. They belong to Jesus, but they are still locked in deception. Others, though, are just plain not born again. Adventism is their identity more than their conviction. They all need to hear the gospelóand they all need to be prayed for because the reality is that they are being blinded by a very real spiritual power. And quite honestly, it's often hard to tell by talking who is one of those who belongs to Jesus and who is not. A great many of them living in deep personal moral compromise speak easily of grace and the love of Jesus and His finished work.

I'm not sure I've answered your questions, RiveróI hope this helps a bit.

Colleen
U2bsda
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Post Number: 369
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River,

From my own personal experience I know the Spirit of God is present in Adventism. There are many who do have the correct focus and although they will not cast off EGW, they have a strong relationship with Jesus and have assurance of their salvation. Personally, I was saved as a child and know that I had assurance of salvation while an Adventist. How did I come to this assurance? I had some great teachers within Adventism that taught me. That said - there is alot of garbage in Adventism and many people who are rule-focused and not Jesus-focused.

As for evangelizing Adventists I will share with them when given opportunities. However, I subscribe to what Oswald J. Smith said, "No one has the right to hear the Gospel twice, while there remains someone who has not heard it once." With 27% of the earth's population who has not heard about Jesus, I will put my focus there. That doesn't mean I neglect Adventists and sharing God's goodness with them. It just means that while sharing with Adventists I will not neglect the 27% of people in the world. That being said, I'm not on a plane to Indonesia right now. But someone is and there are more ready and willing to go but do not have the finances to go. If I cannot go, I can send a substitute. If I don't have money, I can pray for laborers to go or pray for those who are there that are willing to put themselves in harm's way for the sake of the Gospel.
Mwh
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Post Number: 382
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, excellent explication.

River I have to tell you that I'm not an ex SDA, I'm just a concerned Christian. The real gold og SDA understanding, I think, lies in the testimonies of the formers.

Jesus I long to be closer to you!
Cforrester
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River,

I warmly agree with that Oswald statement and your observation with one caveat; I feel that SDA theology has enough leaven and legalism in it to be considered a danger to themselves and other Christians. 50 years ago I would have wondered how many true converted, Christ-centered, Spirit filled Christians were among us; today with the stronger emphasis on Justification by Faith and the wide reading of non-Adventist books (and less reading of EGW) there are likely to be many. I encountered many and have friends who are wonderful Christians, and who will stop by my church if in town and thoroughly enjoy it. I have yet to hear anyone explain the Gospel as well as John Paulien at Andrews/Seminary. The book he assigned as reading was Life in the Son (non-Adventist, Robert Shank).

I'm currently operating under two guilding principles toward Adventists. First is to not directly engage my Adventist friends. They're my friends. If they ask questions I'm tentative in my answers (but honest). I refer them to my written materials. It is important to enjoy Christian unity and fellowship and not build emotional barriers. Adventists transmit a primordial fear of being deceived to children and new converts that creates a built in defensiveness toward outside ideas or correction.

The second principle, then, is to make information available in a format, style and presentation that is credible and readable. Web, printed, and video material should be top quality and avoid the sensational. The simple facts speak loudly; we don't have to shout in bold red letters.

Making information available (both Adventist related and basical Christianity) allows a seeker to review the material from the security and privacy of their own environment at a pace they feel comfortable with.

The Evangelical and "cult watch" people have their fundamentals that a Christian organization must affirm. This is why Adventists are generally referred to as a heterodox sect and not a cult. They officially meet the criterion while adding doctrines not fully understood or agreed with. That's officially; in reality it is more like Colleen has described.

Martin: as an aside, the scapegoat is not generally understood as satan dying for or carrying our sins. I think the Adventist position is plausible, but wrong. I feel that Adventists have traditionally taught that ultimately and in the end Satan will receive the full blame for the mess he's created, and will have to listen to bad Polka music for all eternity. It falls in line with the problematic interpretation that Lev. 16/Day of Atonement/1844 represents the Investigative Judgment. Because of their wierd "transfer of sins" through sacrifice, accumulate in sanctuary, cleansed in D.of.Atonement (1844) and heaped in shovel fulls onto scapegoat after the I.J. is done (whew) it sort of gets convoluted. It's also part of the problem of shifting Lev. 16 to 1844...but if I get going on this I'll never stop :-)
River
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Username: River

Post Number: 195
Registered: 9-2006


Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
You have answered my question completely and I thank you so much for that. You seemed to sense what my struggle is/has been with this, I am glad now that I went ahead and sent the post, I think it was information I needed to know. I have, in the last month or two, ask myself why? But in the end I just have to say ìLord, you knowî whether he put me in the position I am in I do not know but somehow I am in it. All I know is if he calls us he also qualifies us so I leave my calling up to him. It will take me awhile to digest this. Thank you, you are a true friend.

Cforrester wrote : First is to not directly engage my Adventist friends. They're my friends. If they ask questions I'm tentative in my answers (but honest).
Thank you, that has been my tact all along, I feel it is the only way.
All of you have been a true friend to me.
river
Flyinglady
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Post Number: 3125
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River,
I will pray for you as you deal with your SDA friends on a daily basis, just as I pray for other formers who have SDA family.
God can let you know when and what to say.
Diana
Susans
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Post Number: 240
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I pray for you as well, River.

Susan
River
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Username: River

Post Number: 197
Registered: 9-2006


Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana,
Thank you, I needed that, feeling a little bit small at the moment, seems I must depend on the Holy Spirit minute by minute mixed with a whole lot of prayer when in the way with them. I know you are right.
River
Nicole
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

river,
as a non-adventist who deals with adventists in my daily life, i am glad you asked those questions in your previous post.

and colleen,
you answers to river's questions brought me much clarity on the adventist way of thinking. it is hard sometimes to know where they stand because in talking to some of them they come across as in agreement with most of the fundamental beliefs of true christians. but you shed a new light on it (and in how to talk with them)wit your dishonest vs. deceived analogy. however, i'm still not sure where most of my husbands family stands.
River
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Post Number: 198
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 7:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ya know friends, I think in the end, it really doesn't matter as to whether the ones I minister too are saved or lost as far as my ministry is concerned, if I minister to you, or them, or to people in my church or too people on the street as long as I am ministering through the power of the Holy Spirit and in the end have helped someone with a word, a prayer or whatever.
It is unfortunately true that there are some that are direct enemies to the cross of Christ but I always recognize them right away, no problem, there is only one of my Adventist acquaintances that I know has sold out to that deceiving spirit.
The rest are just honest folk, deceived but honest and like Colleen said have an honest desire to serve Christ.
Now this guy that I speak of has turned himself over to that thing either for financial gain or position, I suspect position and I donít hold out a lot of hope for him, I will continue to be polite to him and who knows, maybe I am wrong, I sincerely hope so. At any rate, not my yob to pluck weeds, never liked pulling weeds anyhow.
I do honestly believe that when one commits totally to a deceit such as this he is in very real danger.
I once went with a friend of mine to a fellows house, the fellow was drunk and sitting on the couch, I just stood about 4 feet away while James talked to him, I forget what he went there for, I was just along for the ride, well after about three minutes the fellow slithered off the couch and started crawling around on his back like a snake, James whispered to me ìlets get out of hereî and I said ìfeet donít fail me nowî and we boogyed out of there.
Satan gets to acting up sometimes in the presence of the Holy Spirit.
One day one of my friends was reading a commentary that was just full of truth and the Adventist Acquaintance that I mentioned above Saidî lets donít do that, lets donít do thatî you see it was the spirit in him that went to acting up.
At least he didnít start slithering around, that can give you a real good case of the heebe jeebes.
There is a vast difference between a person who is influenced or taken captive by a deceiving spirit and one who has that spirit inside him. I am convinced of that.
Anyhow it is my aim and prayer to serve God day to day to the best of my ability and I know that is the same with you folk.
I think I am coming around to what I need to come around too, thanks to you all and to God.
River
Flyinglady
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River, as I see it, our job is to plant the seeds. It is God's job to water and grow the plant. So, I will witness, where ever He points and leave the results to Him.
Those experiences sound weird. I shiver just reading them. You can pray for those folks and leave them to God. He will know how to get to them.
I have written your name in my prayer list with SDA friends next to it. I pray for all on my prayer list every day.
God is doing and will continue to do awesome things as He is an awesome God.
Diana
River
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Post Number: 200
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Diana,
Don't get to thinking my whole life is weird, yes the experiences are weird but then I have been in this 35 or so years, have been involved in deliverance ministry and have seen things that not everyone has seen, God don't call everyone to this.
Thank you for putting me on your prayer list, Lord knows I need it. Yes he is Awesome.
River
Flyinglady
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River,
I apologize if I implied that your whole life is weird. I only meant those experiences. God calls each of us and supplies us with what we need to do the work He has appointed to us.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River, I will also pray for you. I am convinced that when dealing with Adventists, it doesn't matter, as you said, whether they are saved or not. They are under the influence of a deceiving spirit, whether or not they are saved, and they need to hear the true gospel. Sometimes they let you speak of it, and sometimes not.

Almost always God works softly and slowly, allowing seeds of truth to yield cognitive dissonance. Those who desire truth will eventually seek it. The word of God is what they need. Oh, yesóthey need to know the truth about Ellen. But if the truth about Ellen is not accompanied or soon followed by searching the word of God and learning about the true, Biblical Jesus, the truth about Ellen will yield cynicism and propel people toward agnosticism.

If, however, they also learn the true gospel and begin searching Scripture, they will eventually SEE.

It is a miracle of God when a person actually recognizes truth and leaves Adventism.

Colleen
River
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Post Number: 201
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 8:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote,
Almost always God works softly and slowly, allowing seeds of truth to yield cognitive dissonance. Those who desire truth will eventually seek it.

I think you must have hit the nail on the head there Colleen, and I wondered about that, over the last few years I have been able to get a few words in here and there in such a way as to work ìsoftly and slowlyî and many times I have wondered if its enough, I should have been more trusting of the Holy Spirit to have accomplished what he wanted to accomplish. That is a result of my lack of prayer no use beating around the bush about it. Itís my own impatience that gets in my way every time.

Speaking of weird experiences, my previous post probably sounded a little sensational to most of you but you do need to know these things are out there and they are no joke, these spirits of deceit are real and they are active.
Most people will spend a lifetime and never see these things ìacting upî or being ìexposedî in such a way as described in my previous post. I think they (spirits) are only allowed to do what God will allow them to do. IMO.
One has only to read through the four gospels and acts to see them in action even if one has never witnessed it, the mistake that people make in these modern times is too not realize that it is no different today than it was then and probably more so, just spend a few minutes in prayer then turn on your T.V. around 6-ish and begin to flip through channels, our children are being fed a constant diet of witchcraft, this Harry Potter type stuff is not harmless.
You see, coming from my viewpoint and having seen what I have seen and the incident I told you about being only a drop in the bucket, I only gave you a little peek, and having said that, I have never ever seen anything so ìweirdî as this Adventism thing yet to you it seems ìnormalî.
In my early years of having been exposed to a ìdeliverance type ministryî at first it ìweirdedî me out, but after a few years it became ìnormalî and not so sensational.
I think the special ability of the human mind is the ability to adjust to our surroundings otherwise it would be overwhelmed and not be able to cope and so then the abnormal becomes normal.
Just a few years ago a curse word on the T.V. or radio would not have been tolerated, now every time we turn it on, even too the evening news we are saturated with unseemly language, but just because it has become normal does not mean it is harmless.
Now letís look again at colleens statement î Almost always God works softly and slowly, allowing seeds of truth to yield cognitive dissonance. Those who desire truth will eventually seek itî.
Absolutely correct I believe but just because the Holy Spirit moves softly upon our lives doesnít mean he is powerless and it doesnít mean that he has sort of put his stamp of approval or submission on them or it and powerlessness was not what Colleen was speaking of.
Even as Christians, in some churches we have allowed the abnormal to become normal in our speech and action even to allowing homosexuals a position of leadership. A deceiving spirit has coerced us into believing that God is puny and has no real power, and that is insane, the Adventist doesnít hold the corner on deceit.
There in the garden when they came to arrest Jesus all Jesus did was speak and it knocked the whole bunch of them over like dominoes.
So we need to learn to recognize these ìseeds of truthî colleen spoke of too search for them and to grab a hold of them and apply them to our surroundings. That is just what I intend to do.
The problem even with some Christians is that we practice unseemly things until our conscience is seared over and then make the mistake of thinking the Holy Spirit has submitted to it when in actuality the Holy Spirit will never come under submission to anyone or anything on this earth. So I have to keep reminding myself that I must submit to him and his will.
So the ìseeds of truthî that I can take away from this whole conversation is that I do not need to know the condition of their souls, I need but speak as the Holy Spirit gives me utterance and that my friends has taken the load of anguish and uncertainty off that I have been hauling around here and I feel light as a feather. I thank you dear friends for ministering to me and allowing the Holy Spirit to do so through you.
River
Colleentinker
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River, isn't it awesome the way God works? We may be ministering to youóand praise God that He has taken that burden from you about what to do for your Adventist friendsóbut you are ministering to us just as much.

First, I want to comment that your burden of not doing enough and not knowing what to do for your Adventist friends sounds SO MUCH like the way I always felt about life in general as an Adventist. Now, not to sound "weird" myself (but knowing that things such as you described above are real), I believe that this feeling of inadequacy and burden you have felt (which I am inferring included some feelings of guilt and self-reproach) was your "outside" experience of their spirit of Adventism.

That feeling of not being able to trust oneself to God because Sabbath IS the sign of faith even though we know it's not salvational (crazy-making talk, but absolutely real) is typical of all Adventists I know. There's always a subtext in their lives of doubt, some fear, guilt (lots of it!), worry, and just plain inadequacy. The load of uncertainty you describe sounds so much like the load of Adventism I used to carry.

You have said that you have an unusually discerning spiritóand from your posts, I totally believe you. I believe your confusion about them and your self-doubt has been part of the spiritual battle waged to keep them in deception, to keep you from perceiving what was true about them. But God didn't leave you "blinded"óHe awoke the question in you about whether you might be dealing with a spirit. Their spirit is a deceiving spiritóand it successfully befuddled you for a while. This experience you have had gives you much greater insight into what is going on with them. What you have felt in relationship to them is very similar to how they feel about their own relationship with God. Have I done enough? What is truth? What do I need to know?

Your comment that to you Adventism appears much more wierd than the manifestations you have seen in your deliverance ministry is very insightful. You are rightówe become accustomed to what we know, and it doesn't seem "weird" to us. I know the same thing happens to children raised in severe abuseóas unpleasant as it is, it seems normal, and they don't have a sense of its being unusual or weird.

For you to say, though, that Adventism seems weird compared to these other "things" underscores the fact that it is not merely a group with aberrant ideas. That hard-to-identify, "slippery" confusion is the mark of a spiritual power, and that is why you have not been able to rest regarding Adventism. You have sensed the spiritual nature of it, but it is so subtle that it took a while for you to "see" it.

I literally thank God for your insight and understanding and your openness to really know this truth. It's a reality that a great many people don't want to know and find ways to ignore it. I am always overwhelmed when someone who's never been Adventist actually "gets it". (Mwhóyou're another one!)

Colleen
Susans
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

Your post has stunned me. I have been sitting here reading it over and over and then the entire thread twice. It's difficult to explain, but everything within me is testifying that what I am reading is profound truth. I don't really know how to express what I'm feeling at the moment.

Thank you for your post.

Susan
Riverfonz
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think there are true believers and unbelievers in most denominations.

The percentages of professing Christians who don't know even the basic truth of the gospel which is Justification by faith alone is staggering. As Cforrester said there are actually lots of SDAs who do know the gospel, and I wouldn't be surprised that in terms of percentages that there are similar numbers in Adventism as in other denominations. This is based on numbers compiled in surveys. But it is staggering about how ignorant much of professing Christendom is of the basic truths of the Reformation.

I would add to River's original list of essentials:

1.) Belief in the Triune God is essential to Christianity

2.)Salvation by grace alone through faith alone:

This is where Adventism and Roman Catholicism fall short is on jusification by faith alone, but it is also true of much of so-called Protestantism.

There is a remnant chosen by grace that is being called out of every nation, tongue, and people, and including SDAs, RCC's, and other denominations.

It just seems that SDA and RCC are more guilty than other groups of obscuring the gospel by distortion of the gospel and presenting false gospels. But there is a lot of bad teaching in other groups also.

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