| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 241 Registered: 9-2006  |
I can see the bewilderment that might incur in a persons life for one who has renounced Adventism, found Christ anew in their heart and suddenly face an array of different denominations (or) core beliefs, (to try to keep straight what I want to write about). A few years back I began to explore these questions. 1. What do I really believe? 2. What do they believe? By they, I mean the denominations that do not fall over into the occult, example, Assembly Of God, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, churches who fall under the Evangelical umbrella. I had no need to explore JW, Advent or Morman, I was not that confused. I read my Bible, not with the view of what some denomination says about it but what the Bible speaks to me, Jesus ask the question ìWho do you say that I am?î now that makes it personal, I have grown older and I know within a few short years and possibly much sooner, I must stand before my maker and my neighbor wonít have a thing to do with it and when it all boils out as far as I feel about church denominations I have the cowboys sorrow ìI rode my horse until he broke his leg and then I shot himî. I used to go to church for what I could get, now I go to church for what I can give, if all I can give nothing but a friendly handshake and a word of encouragement to some one and financial support then that is what I give. I now go to serve and not to be served and that has made a huge difference in my expectations of my church group and my financial support even. Of course I go where I find a best fit, after all, any sensible cowboy will pick the best horse in the corral. I remember one time I had an old cutting pony that was cantankerous, in gathering cattle out of the steep brushy draws, every time I loosened the reins he would go to bucking but around the herd when a steer would try to bolt from the herd he was superb, he didnít need me, all I did was loosen the reins and sit on him, he knew his job, he would bolt after a steer and turn him back into the herd and I could not be daydreaming in the saddle, he was fast and he would see the steer break before I did and be off running. I put up with his antics out on the range because he was superb at his job. My denomination may be a little cantankerous in ways since they are Armenian and I lean to Calvin more but their basic job is to gather a herd and keep them all together and not let them go running off into the bushes and have to be rounded up again. Each morning I have to mount my old cantankerous theological horse and ride off to try to gather ones who are lost in the steep draws of the world, the sick and injured who need care and they wonít come out by themselves, the work is hard and brutal but if I can round up any I am just going to have to let the church do its job of holding them. Now if my denomination breaks a leg I recon I am just going to have to get off and shoot it and transfer my saddle to another horse. Now thatís just my cowboy way and I refuse to ride a mule or a jackass. Now are you going to draw them pistols or are you just going to stand there whistling Dixie?(Clint Eastwood) (Heb 6:1 KJV) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (Heb 6:2 KJV) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (Heb 6:3 KJV) And this will we do, if God permit. If god permits I am going to ride the open range until he calls me to hang up my spurs. River | ||
| Kathy23 Registered user Username: Kathy23 Post Number: 19 Registered: 6-2005 |
Thanks for the website on Lutherans Susan. I've been Lutheran long enough that I understand and laugh at the jokes. Especially the one about if the church is burning down saving the coffee pot. Coffee is very important at our Lutheran social events. As a former chair of Fellowship Committee I've made many a pot of coffee. Quite a turnaround from the Adventist way of condemning those that drink coffee or any beverage with caffeine. River, I love the "You know you are a former adventist when....". I probably should hold a garbage can in one hand when I retrieve my mail so I can throw away all that Adventist mail on the spot. Kathy | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2006 |
We've been off the church books for a year now (it took over a year to get it done). We get three types of sda stuff in the mail: 1)"Lions, Tigers and Bears, oh no!" evangelistic propaganda (with absolutely no sda affiliation mentioned); 2)ABC bookstore slicks to sell books; and 3) Constant phone and mail solicitations for money from Campion and Enterprise Academies - even though we repeatedly tell them we don't belong to their church and we certainly don't want to support the brainwashing system they call Christian education. Steve and Diana Norris | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3165 Registered: 3-2004  |
About 1 1/2 years ago I received an e-mail from LLU asking for my current address and money. I sent them back the message that I am no longer SDA and will not donate because I no longer accept EGW and the SDA beliefs. Haven't heard a word from them since then. I have also changed my email address, so even if they tried they cannot get a hold of me. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 245 Registered: 9-2006 |
I do want to say that the ìyou know you are whenî kind of thing was meant to cheer up and not tear down. It was meant to bring a smile and not a frown. I know I have said words that, in the least at times have pricked hearts and sounded like I was downing in my words pertaining to former Adventist. I want to assure you I had no such intention. I have spoken from a non-Adventist view point but never without your viewpoint in mind. I do not blame the former Adventist for having been Adventist. I do not blame the Adventist because he is Adventist, but I do place blame on the Spirits of deceit that holds him captive, I feel hard at that thing, after all he did his best to deceive me. As I was first thrown in with Adventist, believe me when I tell you I felt a strong pull and it cast doubts on my own salvation, I think the only thing that saved me from being sucked gradually into the thing was that all my views of the Bible are from the cross and so what they said didnít fit but what they said sounded darn good and so I began to ask myself the question ìWho are these people?î ìWhat do they believe and what do they want?î no wonder the Bible warns in Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. I have too believe Adventism is a false Christ, I just have been unable to come to any other conclusion and at first I didnít want to believe that, I just have no other choice, I had come to that point before I came to this web-site and you confirmed it. Now you might ask ìWhat business is it of yours?î and I will tell you that this journey has not been without its rewards, God used the Adventist to bring me to repentance of the things that were in my own life that I needed to repent of and a coldness toward God that I had slipped into. So one morning after awhile that needed repentance did come with many tears and I knew how Peter felt, I donít recommend it to anyone. I had slipped into some never, never land of deceit myself. That set my heart on fire to know the Lord better and I was plunged into deep study of the word and a complete review of my own theology so I didnít go at Adventism with a view from my old theology, sure some but not all. Nobody but nobody is immune too deceit, the devil goes about seeking whom he may devour and he doesnít care about your education, theology, family, you, your children, anybody, simply because God created you. He hated God from the beginning and wants to rip and tear down what God made, he is our arch enemy and that is that Spirit of deceit that is behind it all. I can never again view Adventism from a view other than the Spirit of deceit that created it, I am not in fear of these spirits but I donít under estimate their power either. These spirits are at work through out the whole world, what happened to you Kathy that day at the mail box when even after ten years you had the thought ìwhat if they are right?î was a suggestion from a spirit waiting for the right time to trouble your mind, it has happened to me. This power of suggestion is real and deadly. Consider Eve. Paul warned us to consider lest we also be tempted. Usually temptation comes through the power of suggestion. The study of Adventism and the posts here has helped me to see grace more clearly than ever before and to grow a little in Christ and to expand my view of Christians from all walks of life and many other avenues of growth. These spirits of deceit work through the power of suggestion and one better believe that but the Holy Spirit of God that is within us is more powerful if we lean on him. I want to caution everyone not to take lightly the hanging on to bits and pieces of Adventism, the flotsam and jetsam, lest the enemy come in and trouble your mind, when you slam the front door on him just be sure to slam the back door too. Of course I am not talking about mail that comes to your mail box unless you hang onto it in your heart; I am covering a broad spectrum of tricks used by the enemies of your soul. The enemies will try to retake lost ground in times of trauma and stress in order to trouble your mind. Now is that ok? Now nothing anybody said brought this on, I just wanted to expound on it a little bit. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5103 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, thank you for your passionate and clear analysis and warning. You are completely right; not one of us is immune to deceit. And absolutely the spirit of deceit is lurking to regain lost ground if it were possible. Your admonition not to hold onto the "flotsam and jetsam" of Adventism is so astute. I am so thankful that you have had the courage to speak to all of us so plainly. From your perspective of never having been Adventist, you see this thing with an objectivity difficult for most of us. Richard and I have frequently observed that those who dismiss the idea that there is a literal spirit of deceit behind Adventism tend to remain "stuck" or spiritually confused. When we can admit this reality, however, and surrender that thing to God, asking the Holy Spirit to inhabit our hearts in the place it had previously been, the freedom is palpable, and the truth becomes more and more clear. I just thank you again, River, for speaking to us this way. Those of us who have been inside are frequently dismissed as "over-reacting" or "demonizing" or "having a bone to pick". Yet I know absolutely that what you say is 100% true. Praise God He Himself holds and protects our hearts and minds in Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3167 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, I, also, want to thank you for your plain speaking about adventism. I thank God that He finally got a hold of my heart, soul and mind and took me out of it. Very few people, even Christian ministers, see Aventists as they really are. The spirit of deceit is so subtle. But God conquered Satan at the cross, so that is won on our behalf and I am so thankful. I have met two Christian ministers who know what Adventists really believe. One is a Baptist and the other is an Orthodox priest. Other Christian ministers think the SDAs are just another evangelical church who go to church on Saturday. When I took my minister books by Ratzlaff, Taylor and Cleveland he had no idea what SDAs really believed. I am so thankful that you can see it and know from where the deceit comes. God is so awesome in how He teaches us. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 248 Registered: 9-2006 |
Consider this: Consider this verse real hard John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Now read. 18. The Gift of Prophecy: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. 20. Sabbath: The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. 24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary: There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. Is this hearing the voice of the savior and following him? Gods justice vindicated? Entered the last phase of his atoning ministry? Remnant church? Entered the last phase in 1844? Oh come now, give me a break. No matter how hard any of us wiggle we cannot get away from John 10:27 His Sheep, his voice. Now some will say I am proof texting, read it in context, I donít have enough room to put it all down. Who are his sheep? The ones who hear him, those are the ones whom he knows. The opposite of that is unhearing and unknowing. Jesus said that he knew who his sheep were. Its true, I donít 100% of the time but the Bible does say I can know them by their fruits, go over to the front of this forum and read the letters of resignation too families and friends written with the hopes that their honest decision will be accepted with grace and knowing already in their heart they will not be accepted but they go the mile anyway? Is that the fruits I am looking for? What are the fruits? Well, Love, joy, peace, long suffering, you know the drill. Read through the forum, the posts of heartbreak because of non-acceptance of family and friends and show me where love, joy and peace is breaking out in the Adventist church and I might cut some slack. Oh sure, out there when I associate with them, peace reins just as long as I donít try to show them things about Adventism that I donít agree with, if I do I know world war three will start so whoís keeping the peace here? Now consider this Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Mat 7:23 KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. Sure they claim the Holy Spirit, so does a lot of people, but is this the same Holy Spirit the Bible speaks of that is guiding them into the (truths) as stated in those articles of faith above? But there are differences in all denominations. True. Always has been, probably always will be, its not what is right about the Adventist, itís what is terribly wrong that bothers me. Its not up to God to get it right itís up to us. Itís the few theological differences that divide the mainstream evangelical denominations, we all agree on the atonement and we all agree on the fruit. Well, the one thing about it, when we breathe our last he better know us and recognize us from our following him around or we are in the hurt locker and a world of hurt is coming down. Heeey Jesuuuuuuuuuuuuus!!!!!!! Here I aammmmmmmm!!! Look, over heeerrrrreee Lord!!!!! The Shepard knows his sheep from them following him around all day, week in and week out, he doctors their injuries, rubs in the oil, gives them water for their feverish faces. Look, look its me Lord, over here, see my spots!!!??? ìOh yes, your that funny looking one, well what have you been eating little sheep, you been eating those briars again?î In spite of my imperfection the Holy Spirit comes around every once in a while and touches me in such a way that leaves no doubt that he knows me intimately and cares, he lets me nuzzle up to him and he speaks so, so softly and then I am content to lie down in the fold in peace. I may fall behind every once in a while in the grazing but be rest assured you will hear the pitter patter of my little feet running to catch up. Let anything get too far out of whack around here and I go running and yelping to Jesus like a scalded dog. So you Adventist go ahead and follow whatever it is you follow if you insist. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 249 Registered: 9-2006 |
P.S The Adventist ain't the only one that can publicate. We got lots of republicanaters around here. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 347 Registered: 6-2006  |
Susan, thanks for the Lutheran web site! I forwarded it to my "Old Lutheran" Dad and my "Old Lutheran" pastor (although, he's about 20 years younger than my Dad, haha) The Ole and Lena jokes I can totally relate to as I'm of the Norwegian persuasion as well.  Regarding the mail, every once in a while we get the all white publication where you really have to search for information from where it comes from. I hate those things! I keep wanting to send something back to refute it, but not sure if it's worth it. I did recently call Pacific Union Recorder and ask that our name be removed. We only got one magazine, but that was enough for me! Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1644 Registered: 10-2004  |
River and Colleen, great posts! I agree completely. Thanks for the warning, River, about how dangerous it is to hang on to "bits and pieces of Adventism." All of it must be rejected or else it is impossible to be entirely free of the deception and bondage. It is especially dangerous for former Adventists to hold on to any teachings/practices of Adventism, because for them these things have a spiritual (demonic) hold on them, and they will be under the influence of "deceitful spirits" (1 Timothy 4:1). Jeremy | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 133 Registered: 8-2006 |
Jeremy, I'm in total agreement. For that reason I think it's important to get rid of all the EGW books and all the "stuff" SDA that might be around your house. I rechecked some of the apparently innocuous kids' books and found them unacceptable. If you ever need to research EGW, you can go directly to the White Estate online. Furthermore, for me at least, it was highly important that I drop my membership, not just fade away. Who knows but what your letter read to a church board may plant a seed in the mind of someone else who is already battling cognitive dissonance. Once we're totally free, it's amazing to watch how God places SDAs in our path to speak with! Aliza | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3171 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, What I have discovered since leaving adventism is that Christian churches, generally speaking, have as their core doctrine Jesus Christ-his birth, life, death and Resurrection. They may have other things in their beliefs, but they are nothing to do with salvation. They all believe Jesus is our salvation. What God wants from me is my love and acceptance of what Jesus did for me. I cannot do this of myself, so He sends the Holy Spirit to show me the way. From my understanding of the Bible, God wants us to be witnesses for Him. We witness and do not worry about the results. God and the Holy Spirit will do the convicting and convincing. All I do is plant the seed. Thank you God that the job of convincing and convicting is yours. I do not want to interfere with that. You do a very good job and I will let it be yours. You are always awesome. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1645 Registered: 10-2004 |
Aliza, yes, thanks for mentioning SDA "things" around the house--I had forgotten to mention that. Just recently we've gotten rid of some more SDA things such as books, and even music tapes--after reading the testimony of former medium (now Christian) Stacie Spielman, that I posted on the forum before. Here are the quotes agan that I posted before from her website:
Adventism is not harmless and is not something to play around with. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on December 16, 2006) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3172 Registered: 3-2004 |
Jeremy, Thanks for the links above and for reminding us of the harmfullness of adventism. I had never seen it that way. I know the subtle deceit of the beliefs is bad and make it easier to hook a person. It is more than that I am finding. Thank You God. You are awesome. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 252 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jeremy, Unfortunately a fellow I know who left Advent-ism I think has fallen into the new age movement, both he and his wife. I wonder how many do fall into other cultish movements? I am just judging from materials he sent me to read, I trashed them so I don't remember what it was all about, not Bible though, the usual mix. River | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 378 Registered: 11-2004 |
I do find it a bit "much" to purge one's home of all Adventist materials for fear that the devil or evil spirits may enter your home that way. Why don't we purge the TV, radio, any type of rock music, and all books relating to non-Christian faiths? Are the Heritage singers songs really that much different from other Christian artists? They may have a few songs relating to losing salvation/working to be made right, but there are many Christians and Christian songs with those beliefs. And if we run into the devil or evil spirits in our home or elsewhere we do not need to be afraid. 1 John 3:8 says that Jesus has destroyed the works of the devil. The One who lives in us is greater than anything the devil can confront us with. I'm not saying we should read SDA books or listen to SDA recording artists, but to need to purge them for fear of the devil is a bit much. Many of us here have books like the 28 Fundamental Beliefs or look at the egw website to find quotes from EGW. Should we throw those out or toss our computer in case the devil or evil spirits come into our homes that way? During the first couple years away from Adventism it may be best to rid yourself from books or music but not for fear of the devil, but because you are likely going thorough a period of confusion about many different doctrines. It is best during that time to focus on the Bible only. | ||
| Ikilgore Registered user Username: Ikilgore Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2006 |
Aloha Guys! U2, I totally agree about not throwing away everything that is SDA related. I am not a Mormon, but I still own a copy of the Book of Mormon. My parents are still dealing with Adventism and they are slowly seeing the Light. They also have the red books on the shelf and the many sugar coated propaganda books as well. You guys know what I am talking about: the many versions of Steps to Christ and the last eight chapters of what ever book they are peddling at the moment! As for the Heritage Singers...to call them "recording artists" is a stretch. Have you guys listened to them lately??? I haven't!!! I thank God that my mother listens to non-Adventist music. If you pop the cd out of her car it's either a Joel Osteen (spelling??) cd or the Newsboys. Either way she is getting a good message. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5107 Registered: 12-2003 |
U2bsda, I believe that purging one's house of Ellen and also of Adventist "stuff" is something God directs us to do as He wills and in His time. I do believe that God often directs people to get rid of the stuff. I know that we didófirst we got rid of all of Ellen's stuff, and as time progressed we got rid of all other Adventist publications. It opened up a lot of shelf space for great new books! No, I do not believe we need to fear demons at all. When we are in Christ, we are under His blood and living in His victory over demonic powers (Col 2:14-15). I do believe, however, that many "formers" are convicted to get rid of the SDA stuff because they are vulnerable to the spirit of Adventism. I actually know a former SDA family who very recently had a most unusual experience with their toddler and Ellen's books. The books hadn't been on their shelves for several years, and as they bought a new book shelf and unpacked their boxes, without thinking twice they unpacked Ellen's books onto the shelves. The toddler began exhibiting completely unusual, never-before-observed fear reactions to the room where the books were. Mystified, it took a couple of days before one of them realized that the books had not been in the house before during the child's life. Whereupon, the mom and the toddler made a game of throwing them away, and then they prayed together for God to protect them and fill the house. The child has had no more fear reactions. Why this happened to them, I can't specifically say. It was real, however. I believe it had a lot to do with making certaing realities about the religion and the nature of Ellen's influence real to them. God allows certain insights and sometimes "forcefully" drives His points home for purposes we can't always see. He knows, however, what we need to understand. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1646 Registered: 10-2004 |
U2, I wouldn't necessarily say that it is due to an unhealthy fear of the devil/demons. It's not wanting anything connected with evil in your house, and not wanting to honor the spirit of Adventism or invite it into your house. Also, the Bible says:
"Are the Heritage singers songs really that much different from other Christian artists?" I don't think we even have to look at the songs, and the issue is not even necessarily with the singers themselves (besides them being subject to Adventism). As that quote I posted above says:
"I'm not saying we should read SDA books or listen to SDA recording artists, but to need to purge them for fear of the devil is a bit much. Many of us here have books like the 28 Fundamental Beliefs or look at the egw website to find quotes from EGW. Should we throw those out or toss our computer in case the devil or evil spirits come into our homes that way?" I'm not saying that we shouldn't have SDA materials for refutation purposes--that is sometimes necessary. As for the other part of your quote, here is a personal story posted by Melissa on this forum last year:
The thread linked to above also contains a very insightful story by Colleen. Jeremy |
