| Author | Message | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 112 Registered: 10-2005 |
I'm currently in a bible study Discovering God will for my life, I have been going through difficulty with husbands health physically and spirituly,,I have been watching him spiral down for awhile now,and I have prayed over the years for God to interevene and save him before he turns his back on God ,it's like I have watched him on a ladder and the rungs being knocked out from under him, and then I read romans 9 and I begin to question why I even pray,or what difference does it make God is going to show mercy and compassion on whom He desires and hardens the hearts of those He chooses,so how does one sit back and humbly acceppt God's will when you see a loved one that was strong in the Lord spiral down,can anyone give me better clarity on Romans 9? thanks,Dawn | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 77 Registered: 1-2006  |
Dawn, I don't have any trite answers. Just "on-line" friendship. My heart aches after reading your post. Praying that God's Spirit bring you comfort and peace that exceeds our understanding--even in difficult circumstances. Bob | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 220 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dawn, your post touched me. I'll be praying for you and your husband. Regarding Romans 9... This past summer I listened to a bunch of Gary Inrig's (senior pastor at Trinity church) archive sermons on the book of Romans. I have struggled with Romans chapter 9 myself, and found his sermon entitled "Hard Questions" helpful. Here is a link to some of the archive sermons on Romans (including chapter 9). There are a few sermons dedicated to chapter 9, but I think the sermon "Hard Questions" (near the bottom of the page) addresses more of what you're asking. http://trinityonline.org/cgi-bin/MediaList.cgi?section=&category=Romans Grace | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3190 Registered: 3-2004  |
Dawn, Like Bobj, I do not have any kind of answer. But like him I can offer "on-line" friendship and prayer. We have no idea what your husband is fighting, except that it is a spiritual battle and he has not learned to lean on God. You and your husband are on my prayer list. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5135 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dawn, Romans 9 does not mean that it is useless for us to pray for one another. There is a tension between God's total sovereignty, which Romans 9 emphasizes, and the repeated Biblical commands to pray and give thanks on all occasions with all kinds of requests. There is much about this subject which we cannot explain, locked inside time as we are. In eternity, reality looks different from how it appears to us. I believe that the emphasis of Romans 9 and the other Biblical texts is to give us confidence that no matter what happens, we can trust God. One of the hard lessons I'm learning is that God wants me to rest in Him and in His faithfulness even when events or people in my life are out of control. My own peace and trust are not dependent upon the choices of those I love; my security is anchored in Jesus. I have to learn to take my focus off the (sometimes crippling or destructive) issues of the people I love and look instead to Jesus, seeing Him standing between me and the other person instead of the other person between me and Jesus. When I can release the people I worry about into God's care, I sometimes experience a palpable sense of relief and security, because I know that their outcomes are not related to my helping them "see" or to my effectiveness in praying. Instead, I pray for them from a sense of Jesus KNOWING what they need instead of from a perspective of worry that they won't figure out what they need to do. Sometimes I have to be content to let my loved ones sit in their problems, praying that God will provide the people and expereinces and healing that they need and make me able to speak at the right times if He orchestrates the opportunities. There are several texts that stress the need for us to prayóbut God wants us to trust Him and to allow Him to calm our fears and our hearts, leaving the "unfixable" things in His care. Ephesians 6:18: "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints." Philippians 4:4-7: "Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it agaiun: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." Colossians 3:16-17: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitutde in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him." 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18: "Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 3:20-21: "Now to him who is able to do immeasurabley more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen." Colleen | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 113 Registered: 10-2005 |
I thankyou all for your encouragment,and I know that in order to have peace about it is to let it go to the one who is in control,but to be honest with you all I struggle with the passage that says God shows mercy and compassion to those He chooses I wonder why He cant choose my husband who has been afflicted for years and is lossing spirtual ground because of it? Dawn | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 396 Registered: 11-2004 |
Dawn, I'm sorry your husband is going through a difficult time. I will pray for him. If you go here you can read an alternate viewpoint of Romans 9: http://kenschenck.blogspot.com/2005/12/five-important-points-about-romans-9_13.html 1 Timothy 2 says "...God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." The Bible describes the devil as one who comes to steal, kill, and destroy. 1 Peter 5 says " 7Casting the [c]whole of your care [all your anxieties, all your worries, all your concerns, [d]once and for all] on Him, for He cares for you affectionately and cares about you [e]watchfully.(B) 8Be well balanced (temperate, sober of mind), be vigilant and cautious at all times; for that enemy of yours, the devil, roams around like a lion roaring [[f]in fierce hunger], seeking someone to seize upon and devour. 9Withstand him; be firm in faith [against his onset--rooted, established, strong, immovable, and determined], knowing that the same ([g]identical) sufferings are appointed to your brotherhood (the whole body of Christians) throughout the world. 10And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace [Who imparts all blessing and favor], Who has called you to His [own] eternal glory in Christ Jesus, will Himself complete and make you what you ought to be, establish and ground you securely, and strengthen, and settle you." The devil does seek out to destroy the faith of many Christians. We can trust in Him to bring us through the difficult times. 1 Corinthians 10:13 says "...But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to [c]a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to bear up under it patiently." Ephesians 6 says "11Put on God's whole armor [the armor of a heavy-armed soldier which God supplies], that you may be able successfully to stand up against [all] the strategies and the deceits of the devil. 12For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere. 13Therefore put on God's complete armor, that you may be able to resist and stand your ground on the evil day [of danger], and, having done all [the crisis demands], to stand [firmly in your place]. 14Stand therefore [hold your ground], having tightened the belt of truth around your loins and having put on the breastplate of integrity and of moral rectitude and right standing with God, 15And having shod your feet in preparation [to face the enemy with the [a]firm-footed stability, the promptness, and the readiness [b]produced by the good news] of the Gospel of peace.(B) 16Lift up over all the [covering] shield of [c]saving faith, upon which you can quench all the flaming missiles of the wicked [one]. 17And take the helmet of salvation and the sword that the Spirit [d]wields, which is the Word of God. 18Pray at all times (on every occasion, in every season) in the Spirit, with all [manner of] prayer and entreaty. To that end keep alert and watch with strong purpose and perseverance, interceding in behalf of all the saints (God's consecrated people)." In the middle of a trial we can trust in Him to bring us through. We may not be at the top of the ladder, but we can rejoice through the trial that we are still ON the ladder and know that we will once again climb up. I pray that you will have openings to share with your husband God's Word and the treasures that lie within. I pray that your husband will be surrounded by Christian brothers and sisters who will demonstrate the love of Christ. God's blessings to you and your husband! | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 661 Registered: 10-2002  |
Dawn, I'm praying for you and your husband. About Romans 9, I think we often read too much into it (and in particular we also don't read it in the context of chapters 8-11). We unconsciously isolate verses 6-29, and we miss the punchline to it all in verses 9:30-10:4. We miss the point that there was a purpose in the "election" of the individuals that Paul named, "God's purpose in election". In order to find this purpose, we must go back to Abraham, who was the first to be "chosen". Abraham was chosen and blessed, but not only for his own benefit, but so that he might become a blessing to the nations. (see Genesis 12:1-3, 18:17-19, and 22:15-18) God's purpose in "electing" the children of Israel was so that He might have "a nation of priests"... people who would intercede for the "non-elected" nations. All of these "elections" led up to the Elect One--Jesus Christ. We get particularly confused when we focus on "election" and not on the Elect One. Our election is in Him. Our election is because He is the Elected, the Chosen One. And so it is written, that God loved "the world" so much that He gave us His Son... the Son was blessed, chosen and elected in order that the world might be blessed through believing in Him. And so your husband is definitely included among those God has loved. His love for your husband is greater than you or I can imagine. No "creation" happens without God's loving weaving, and your husband was put together by God's loving hands. Ask the Lord to reveal to you how He sees your husband. Ask Him for His heart for your husband. He will show you His heart through many things, and through the Scriptures. Begin to believe what the Scriptures say about His love for your husband and for you. With prayers and in His awesome love, Ramone in Osaka | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 277 Registered: 9-2006  |
Colleen, You said well, we must hold some of these things in tension, the difference between free will and election has been argued for year on year, there is John 3:16 also, I have struggled myself with this question and taking the Bible overall I have had to come to the conclusion that we also have free will. Clearly Jesus died for all. God is not a respecter of persons. If we push the election thing too far it clearly breaks down with our finite thinking. If a poor ragged man wrote you a check for one million dollars you would probably discount it, we have heard of cases where a man died in poverty and lack of even the basic necessities and had hundreds of thousands in the bank, he did not spend the money he had. The check has been wrote, the ticket paid for yet few will take advantage, another way to put it might be that Jesus has opened the door to the prison yet we walk to the door and turn away and walk right back into the prison, in fact Jesus is that door to freedom, a good example is probably you folk here on this forum, one day you stepped out of the prison of Adventism and into the true Sabbath rest, you had to step through that door too freedom yet you could go right back down to your respective churches and say look, here is the door, you could preach your head off day and night yet few will step through and I am afraid many will perish because of it. why? Because of unbelief, thatís why. People will read the Bible and go picking and choosing scripture to fit their own ideas and thus building in their own minds a false image of God and then serve that false God. The Adventist donít have a corner on that. Thereís the story of the old preacher that went down to a certain church and after awhile he went to the Lord about it, he said ìLord, I went down there and tried to preach but they wonít let me in!î and the Lord said ìWell, donít feel bad, I been trying to get in there for years!î Iíll bet you a dollar to a doe nut that you can walk in many, many homes today and ask for their Bible and they would be hard put to find it ìWell, let me see, I know itís around here somewhere!î Dawn is not alone in having loved ones that refuse too turn, sometimes I just sit here and tremble inside with my own loved ones on my heart and fear grips my heart for them and all I can get out of my mouth is ìOh, Fatherî and the tears stream down my face and it shakes me to the depths of my soul but itís not a matter of God electing to save them, itís a matter of their own unbelief and rejection so when we speak in terms of Romans 9 God has already shown that he will have mercy by sending his own Son to die for all and he did this even knowing who and who would not accept his Son, now how is that for love, dieing for even the ones who would not accept yet he did it anyway? Truly God so loved the world. John 3:16. Christ died for all. How could God give any more than his own Son in his mercy for man kind? Go to the shortest verse in the Bible and read that and you have Godís will for all. There are too many preachers preaching a milk sop religion when there is a real hell to shun and a heaven to gain, failing to warn of the judgment to come and I think it is simply that they have built up their own false Godís in their own mind and are not true disciples. River | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 251 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dear Dawn, I just want to share with you something I've discovered this year about my husband's walk with Christ. I started working through a book called "The Power of a Praying Wife". It is a book packed with one issue after another of a husband's life. I work through 2 chapters a week; sometimes I stay on the same 2 chapters for a couple weeks. I just get on my face before God regarding different specific issues in my husbands°¶ life. Sometimes I'm on a chapter I think doesn't relate to my husband. I pray that topic anyway. Then once a week I pray with a Godly woman in my church that is also praying for her husband on those same two chapters. It is all kept confidential. Because of the prayers and time praying with a Sister in Christ, I have seen miracles in my husband I've begged God for, for YEARS. I know there is no magic in the book. It's simple. God is working on his WHOLE PERSON not just the specific things that that I could see needed changed. He°¶s also changing me through the prayers, seeing ways I can contribute to his issues. And God is not a guilt tripper, he deals with me gently so that I let Him work on me without much of a fightɆ Also, now there's another lady, my prayer partner, asking God for good things in our marriage and in my husband. I am praying with the women's minister at our church, but it has to be someone who is a mature Christian which means that real issues and real life won't make her change the subject or brush it over with some trite comment. If you don't have anyone there you'd feel comfortable praying with, I'd love to. I'm sure Colleen has my number, or I could get it to her, and she could pass it on to you. Well, just something that really is changing me and my husband spiritually and emotionally. God Bless Your Family. I will pray. Love, Lisa | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5137 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dawn, Lisa's suggestion about praying for specific spiritual issues for your husband is a very good one. Sometimes the things God wants to "work on" in our spouses are things that we can't totally see. He never grows us all at once, eliminating allour resistance and rebellion in every area at the same time. He grows us slowly and in His time. I believe it is also appropriate to ask God how to pray for your husband. I have prayed this regarding Richard, and God has sometimes clearly given me direction to pray for certain situations or circumstances in his life that I wouldn't have thought about so clearly. I also pray several of Paul's prayers for Richard and my sons. One of Paul's prayers you might pray for your husband (among whatever else God shows you to pray) is Ephesians 2:17óthat God will give him the Spirit of wisdom and revelation so that he will know Him better. Another prayer I also pray is that God will show me how to be a Godly and submissive wife. God wants us trusting in Him, even when our circumstances are unresolved. Sometimes we have to get our emotions out of the way so our husbands aren't resisting us. God knows how to reach them far better than we do! Praying for you and your husband... Also, Ramone, you make an excellent point that none of us are elected apart from being elected in Christ. Ephesians 1:4 says, "For we were chosen in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." Election is not about God choosing US aloneóit is about His choosing us in Christ. It's not about some of us being somehow more worthy or blessed intrinsicallyóit's all about our being in Christ. I can't totally express this fact, but the Bible is clear that election is not primarily about US. It's about our being in Christ. Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 408 Registered: 7-2005 |
My wife is becoming more and more aggresive and intolerant toward the gospel, and she's sticking to legalism. She's becoming more and more unwilling to believe. There is a great encouragement for me to know that the apostle Paul, before conversion manifested an increased opposition to the gospel. Because God elected Paul (Galatians 1:15), his antagonism to the gospel was no obstacle for the sovereign grace of God. Looking ar my wife I see more and more reasons to believe that she will reject the gospel. But, because I believe in individual election, I'm encouraged to pray for her, no matter what I'm seeing in her life, knowing that my only hope is the sovereing grace of God. With spiritually dead people, I must count only on a miracle, a resurrection. Any other expectation is unrealistic. | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 221 Registered: 11-2005 |
Wow - I've been so blessed reading all the insights and suggestions/advice on this thread. It's actually been quite moving for me to read everyone's testimonies on the power of prayer in a spouse's life. You put it so well, Jackob. You're right. The whole conversion experience is a miracle and we can be encouraged and have hope and trust in God's sovereign grace and wisdom (even when we can't see how it will possibly work out). Our human perspective is so different from God's perspective. Grace | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5140 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jackob, you're right about counting only on a miracle. That is exactly what is neededóthe only thing that can possibly happen. It is a miracle when any of us come to know the Lord Jesus. Even if your wife is resistant and "hardened", I know that your consistency and love will impact her in ways she may not even be able to express. Praying for you and her, Jackob. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3194 Registered: 3-2004 |
Jackob, You and your wife continue in my prayers. Yes, it is a miracle that any of us came to know Jesus Christ. But then, He is a miracle worker and I am so thankful for that. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 114 Registered: 10-2005 |
awesome encouragment here I have been blessed,I shared with a lady at work here and she gave me encourgement too to stay in the Word,in prayer,in fellowship,and honestly I can say I have been lacking in all areas lately because of the drama in my life right now I feel like the life has been sucked out of me, and I should know better that during these times is when I need to be covered in God's Word.Thnankyou all for your prayers,Lisa the book you mentioned Im going to buy and once I get going on it would you mind if I called you and you could pray with me? since I have a little of a kindered spirit here in more ways than one. thankyou River for the reminder of John 3:16 and Colleen for Ephs 2:17,good stuff going on in the house tonight!!I'm just going to pack you all in my back pocket. hugs,Dawn | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 115 Registered: 10-2005 |
lisa my email is wolfgang@mei.net | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2435 Registered: 3-2005 |
Romans 9 has become one of the most encouraging chapters of scripture to me over the last two years, especially in light of my wife's stroke, and seeing God work in her life. I still don't have full assurance of her salvation, but it is so much easier for me to trust in God's absolute soveriegn power and grace, and knowing that he wil be perfectly just, as the Judge of all the earth will do right (Genesis 18). It is so much easier to trust in God's power to persuade and draw, than my own power of persuasion. I am totally convinced that unregenerate persons have NO FREE WILL with regard to their coming to know Jesus. If free will was true, then Jesus' words in john 6:44 would have no meaning. Also John 1:13 so clearly says: "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." This passage could not be clearer. It is not by the will of man--BUT OF GOD. I am actually quite amazed that their is so much controversy over this doctrine when the Bible is so clear. Other doctrines that are so much less clear--such as eternal torment--are almost universally believed by most of Christianity without even blinking an eye. But this doctrine, that God is in charge, and chooses according to His good pleasure, is somehow thought of as so controversial. Stan | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 280 Registered: 9-2006 |
Stan, It is not a matter of God presenting himself to man by the word and the power of the Holy Spirit, it is the matter of man having the free will to receive him once he does present himself, there are many that do not and did not receive him or his word. Once God presents himself we have the free will to choose as to whether we will follow him or not. I have too say that election and free will is a useless argument, it is simply telling the same story from two different views, it is silly, it is like two people describing a house, one guy is standing in front and the other guy is standing in back of the house, one guy says it has a double door and a huge yard and the other guy says it has a single door with a small yard and then arguing over whoís right, look back one verse in John 1: 13 to John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, to those that believe in his name. Unfortunately there are many who hear the gospel and yet will not believe and some even after believing do reject God because they hate him for one reason or another and feel that he has done them some injustice. Jesus came to present himself too the world and for the worlds sake, the Pharisees, the confessed spiritual leaders of Israel gave John a raft of problems the same as they gave Jesus and people are still giving him a raft of problems. The truth is, we have today, while it is called today to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and to be saved from the judgment to come, we any of us are not guaranteed another day, not another minute, as I write this, for many it is too late, their time has run out. So I, for myself will go on preaching and praying and asking for time for my loved ones and others, my prayer is ìJust a little longer please Jesusî ìJust a few more days, I ask it not for myself but for themî I have heard many say ìOh, if Jesus would just come todayî and I think ìOh, please Lord, just another day to work at the harvest, see, here is one and there is oneî that trumpet will sound and the harvest will end, I know that, and if God takes me today my harvest days will be over, now for me to believe that I am the one doing the converting would be asinine but what God has given me is the power of love and a sound mind to present the gospel too whoever will hear it. Well, the sound mind may very well be in question as you can all attest too, Iím a nut, Iím a nut and my life is in a rut but at least it is in Jesusí rut. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 281 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dawn, You just keep on praying for that man with all your heart, I had been praying for my Son for fifteen years and one day I was on my way to the bank and thinking about him and prayed ìLord, these many years I have prayed for him, will I never see my Son saved?î and the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart these words ìHave faith in Godî just those four words and no one will ever convince me that God did not speak to me that morning. About seven years later my Son came too know the Lord. Dawn I say this with my whole heart. Have faith in God, never ever give up on your loved ones, I have faith for you, Dear precious father, encourage Dawn today, and touch her dear husband with your healing touch and heal his soul and give him strength, let Dawnís faith reach out to you oh holy father, I ask it in the mighty name of Jesus. River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 663 Registered: 10-2002 |
Amen, River. Lord, I'm praying the same. Strengthen Dawn's faith, and continue to draw her husband to You. We pray that his heart be softened. Thank You for bringing him before us for prayer & loving intercession by Your Spirit. Thank You for calling Dawn into You for such a time as this, and for calling us to the priestly ministry of loving prayer for those who do not yet know You. Thank You for loving us while we were Your enemies, for justifying us even though we were wicked, for giving us Your grace. Let this awesome agape love & grace of who You are to us soften and melt his heart, through our prayers, through Dawn's love and patience, and through all the ways we can't see that Your Holy Spirit moves. In Jesus' name, Father, amen. | ||
| Richardtinker Board Administrator Username: Richardtinker Post Number: 59 Registered: 4-1999  |
I deleted four posts that left the topic of this thread and dealt with a subject that has been discussed in the "Theology" section of the forum. Richard |
