| Author | Message | ||
| Tkmommy Registered user Username: Tkmommy Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2007 |
I have read many of the testimonies of those who left the sda church and have found then inspiring. My situation is this...Although I became a member of the sda church at 16, some 19 years ago, I haven't always agreed with all doctrines. More so after college. BUT, it never bothered me to discount some of the teachings. I always liked the saying that no church is perfect because a church is made up of people. I would say over the last few years, probably to do with my kids,3 and 5, I haven't been happy in a church that I don't agree with A LOT of doctrine, and though I know in my heart these minor points have NOTHING to do with my salvation (probably why it wasn't a big deal before)it's been weighing on me. Probably about a year ago I stated to my hubby the only doctrine I found biblically strong was the sabbath and the state of the dead, and since there was no other church that had those two key points, I was "stuck" at the sda church. I would have to say my hubby has similar feelings, although he LOVES political/end time stuff, and feels SDA theology is pretty on about end time stuff.....I'm not convinced of this, yet it is not important to me anyway. Anyway, if you read my intro you know I have now finished Sabbath in Christ which I enjoyed very much and found very biblical. I have encouraged hubby to read it, although he has many other books he is reading now, so it is not a priority for him. I have brought up points (he feels strongly about sabbath being started at creation, I explained Dale Ratzlaff argued that well in the book) Anyway, I am trying to get him to understand why I am questioning, I suppose all I can do is plant seeds and pray! I really don't want us going down 2 different roads! Anyway, my question is for those of you that are formers...when did you first decide you felt you couldn't deal with the uncomfortableness or questioning anymore? Was there a time when you were OK that you didn't agree with some things? When in your journey did that change for you and wht was your next step? I'm not sure what to do next except continue to study and pray. My time is limited with the kiddos and I need all the help I can get! I also am not the best of verbal communicators, so I find discussing some of these points with hubby difficult. I REALLY want to be able to defend my self strongly. Any thoughts? Tami  | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2006 |
Tami, We have been "out" now for 2 years. It became easier to ask questions as we studied our Bibles, because we couldn't find anyone in our church that wanted to deal with our questions. It was made very clear to us that there wasn't a place for our family in the SDA church. I even had a pastor tell me this. I tried to volunteer for various ministries that I had experience in, nothing ever happened. This was during the Purpose-Driven church days when we were requested to plug into ministry. As I prayed for guidance and studied the New Testament, I began to see discrepancies and outright error between the Bible (particularly Jesus' teachings), and the SDA church. I forget who said it in this forum, but we too studied our way out of adventism. God led me in study, a couple dreams, conversations with many Christians of other denominations, prayer and personal ministry to others (this last one God used to get my mind off of my spiritual doubt and misery). And tons of reading on many different subjects (anger, spiritual abuse, doctrinal study, etc.) The most important thing was prayer. I pleaded for answers and direction and God came through huge! Persist, ask, seek, and you will over time get peace, joy, patience, and most of all close to God. Someone made the comment to me that salvation was not by denomination. I took that as a personal challenge to prove or disprove. It took a long while to understand once and for all that God is no respecter of persons, Jew or Gentile. An ederly aunt of mine was not pleased with our leaving adventism, but she did bless us by reminding us that Jesus said "I have other sheep" in John 10:16. That one really did it for me. We began to see that Jesus' church body was way bigger than anything we had ever imagined, we started looking to a church where we could worship Him and Him only, rather that a formula-based belief system. Like the song says..."it's all about You, Jesus". Steve & Diana Norris Colorado | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 852 Registered: 1-2003 |
I was so afraid to doubt, that I asked God to go ahead and kill me if I was heading down the wrong path. It wasn't the first time I had asked God to "take me out". There were a few points in my life that I had subdued the flesh enough that I considered my self nearly a perfect SDA and I knew I would back slide...I was driving my car and I asked God to just go ahead and kill me now so I could go to heaven and not backslide again. And I had kids at home!!! That's sick! But I was serious. I was living a double life and was sick of it...yet I was afraid to question the church. I was afraid of "anti" SDA sites on the internet and was warned about them. However, I prayed and asked God to show me...boy were my eyes opened. When I told my husband I no longer considered myself SDA, he told me I was in danger of losing my salvation. (Cause you know salvation is through a denomination, not Jesus!) We nearly divorced over my leaving. And the thing was...he never really tried to live SDA. I was the Sabbath enforcer, the worship enforcer, etc. I hope you and your husband can stay on the same page...It is painful, otherwise. Praying for you!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5201 Registered: 12-2003  |
Tami, the dissonance in my head gradually grew louder over a period of years. It approached critical mass as we were studying the NT, book by book and chapter by chapter, with our Christian neighbors every week. Concurrently, Richard began finding "stuff" on the internet re: Ellen, and the two thingsópure Scripture and little-known facts about Ellen's lack of integrityóbrought us to a point of crisis. It was when we read Dale's books Sabbath in Crisis (now republished as Sabbath in Christ) and Cultic Doctrine back-to-back that we KNEW that to remain would be to endorse a lie. Even though we could disagree in our heads, staying gave the public impression that the Bible and the Adventist church were compatible. We finally learned that the issue was not simply aberrant doctrine. The issue was, as Dale Ratzlaff said to us so clearly just today, "We were brainwashed!" We had been taught, essentially, that "black" was "white" (no pun intended). We could no longer stay when our presence would signal loyalty if not agreement. We could not be loyal both to Jesus and to a lie. But God clarifies, Toni, what you need to do and when. He personally guides you to Himself at the pace and in the way He intends. There is no "formula". God is faithful, and He knows what we need and when we need it. We cannot prescribe how others should react. God alone knows what He wants us to do, and He will reveal His will as we ask Him to teach us the truth. Colleen (Message edited by admin on January 04, 2007) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3250 Registered: 3-2004  |
Praying for you Tami. Diana | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 82 Registered: 1-2006  |
Tami Welcome! I will be praying for you. Looking back I think it was a process that started when I was a teenager and culminated (praise God for his faithfulness and patience) when I was age 50. There were no shortcuts for me, but as a result of my struggle to remove anything that would keep me from the Lord I found that most of the key doctrines of Adventism just had to go. Itís Jesus that saved me, on the cross, and when He said it was finished, it was finished. I think Christians are right when they say they were saved in AD 31, and equally right when they say they were saved when the Holy Spirit sealed them at the moment they fully trusted Jesus as their Saviour. I simply could not endure not knowing, not having assurance. I just couldnít bear the sense of separation from the Lord that I felt as a result of believing SDA theology. Looking back, I think there were many times when the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart, but I was always blocked by my unwillingness to let go of my SDA beliefs, so I never learned to fully trust the Lord while I held those beliefs. Since I let go of those beliefs and trusted fully and only on the Lord, God has poured His peace into my heart. I can honestly say (without boasting, just in praise) that I am resting in Jesus. I had no idea such peace could exist in this life. I never used to praise God as an Adventist, because, frankly, I didnít feel like it and I certainly had no peace or assurance. Now I find myself praising Him in my prayers and thoughts through the day. So thankful for the Lord Jesus! My heart aches for my friends who havenít yet fully trusted the Lord. I cannot judge another, and cannot speak for all SDAs, but Iím telling you the truth about my own experience in gradually giving up Adventism for the Lord, and the peace Jesus has given me. Bob | ||
| Brian4 Registered user Username: Brian4 Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2006 |
Tami, For your childrens sake sit in their Sabbath School Class or teach it yourself. The Endtime stuff is not enough to keeep your Husband in. If it is you may find yourself living hidden in a cave in fear waiting for the FBI or NSA or Jesus to come for you which ever will get there first. Just kidding of coarse. I was an SDA for 12 years an Elder and Sabbath School teacher till my youngest was 17. When I knew it was time to leave, it was when I was ashamed to be called an SDA because it ment that to belong I must believe all the doctrines of SDA and I never did. I like you think they are close on Sabbath (I believe it is non Salvational by the way) and the state of the dead, however there are so many things that are wrong and I could not in good concience continue in what I believe is false religion. Let me explain what I mean by false. To say that the word of God alone is the standard by which we should live is indeed true. However, in SDA ism you must also believe EGW to be an athoratative continuing sorce for truth. There are many other things about SDA ism that require believing a lie, such as the Investigative Judgement and the false doctrine of Perfectionism. The thing is there are many true bible believing Christians in the church in spite of the fact that the church has tried to corrupt the truth of Gods Word. It is so hard to try to change something that is so inbedded in the minds of the died in the wool legalistic EGW followers. I could not fight it any longer, there was no longer the joy of fellowship due to the constant termoil over false teachings. When the joy is gone it's time to move on. I've been out a little over a year and it has been a blessing. I feel free. I am no longer left with a feeling of fighting to stay when I know I should go. It looks Christian sounds Christian butt it's the skin of the truth stuffed with a lie. Beware of false prophets, outwardly they will appear as sheep but inwardly they are ravening wolves. I too will be praying for you Tami May the Lord Bless you and keep you. Brian | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1661 Registered: 10-2004  |
"The Endtime stuff is not enough to keeep your Husband in. If it is you may find yourself living hidden in a cave in fear waiting for the FBI or NSA or Jesus to come for you which ever will get there first." Brian, that may be the funniest thing I've ever read on FAF! It made me laugh out loud.  Thanks for the humor, Jeremy | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 762 Registered: 8-2004  |
Yes, though I've known some people who were serious about things like that, planning which cave and what to take, and considering each new conspiracy theory that came along to see if it was 'the one.' It's a sad, fearful way to live. Mary | ||
| Tkmommy Registered user Username: Tkmommy Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2007 |
Thanks all for your support! Lest you all think my hubby is stocking his cave....he is not. I think he enjoys the conspiracy theories but is not one to act on them or live his life by them...he is way too social for that! Brian, as far as leaving when there is no joy that is sooo true. That is why we agreed to leave our current sda church to attend one that does give us joy during the worship service. This is one of those more progressive churches where the sermons are based on Jesus, not sda doctrine. Sadly, a few months ago I went on an outing with a small group of friends from church and their kids. There was a friend who had recently left our congregation for Doug Batchelor's church in Sacramento. She shared with us how the previous sabbath she was disappointed to learn there was to be a guest speaker but went wnyway...turns out this speaker's sermon was on modern worship services and how they are products of society not "waiting on the Lord" Huh? Well, he felt because we are a "want it now" society that modern "praise and worship" services are geared to....people want to *feel* the prescence of the Lord *NOW* and not wait for his timing. Now, I know about the LOrd's timing form childhood, as my mom told me several times over it took 10 years to conceive me, and trust me, concerning our family history, I'm glad I hadn't come along any earlier. God's timimg was good! Anyhow, the gist was don't expect *joy* or *passion* in your worship service...that's just being selfish, and wanting *good feelings*. Do any of you think that is twisted as I do? Excuse me for wanting to experience God's presence....sadly, she agreed wholle heartedly with the message. A definite historical adventist...feelings and emotions are shunned. On another note, I have taught ss for years. Adding to my *cognitive dissonance* (love that phrase) was the use of MY BIble First! Curriculum. I had expected it to ring true to the bible hence the title. But the first week we received them I read the lesson to mykindergartneer, only to find a "Little Ellen" story on the back page. This company always includes a missionary or church history story on the back. Little Ellen? My first thought was "little Joseph Smith" I refused to read them to my daughter. Thankfully the new church does not use this stuff. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 412 Registered: 11-2004 |
Tami, I've found there to be a significant difference between expressing emotions in worship to God and having emotions be the compass in how you judge your relationship with God. From what I heard in SDAism expression of emotion is a sign of weakness. I went through several years of questioning before I took the step away from the SDA church. I didn't agree with many of the doctrines for quite some time, but we agreed on the things like the Sabbath/state of the dead, etc so I stuck around. God was slowing changing me and I learned so much from the Bible alone. Then I came to a point where I was faced with a deal breaker. I could no longer call myself SDA and believe what I did. For me the deal breaker was the purpose and mission of the SDA church. I'm sure it was different for others. Leaving was a big step for me and I made the inward decision about 3-4 weeks before I acted on it so when it came time to act on it I had no questions whatsoever that I was doing the right thing. | ||
| Godssonjp Registered user Username: Godssonjp Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2007 |
Tami, I, too, am making my way out of SDAism. I never fully agreed with all SDA doctrines since I joined the church when I was 12. I, like you, ignored some of the teachings I knew were wrong and figure God will handle the rest. So, to answer your question, yes, I was ok with being SDA and not agreeing with SDA doctrine. When I started to study God's word for myself, When I started to read some of the texts that are used to support SDA doctrines (i.e. 28 fundamentals, baptismal vows)and started reading them in context, I realized that the texts themselves had very little or nothing to do with the belief. It's kind of hard to misunderstand the context of a whole chapter or book. However, you can miss the context if you're only reading 1 or 2 verses to get understanding of a complete doctrine. For me, I wanted to know exactly how the SDA church began. My SDA pastor actually pointed the entire church in that direction. He thought it would be good for us all if we knew what the church was built on. His thinking was that we would get back to "the Truth". I figured, if the church is built on truth, I'll find it and that would settle it for me. I started with SDA material on the history of the church that I could find. Some material that the pastor suggested also. Of course, the fastest way to get info on anything is the internet. So, I also went to SDA sites that I knew of and started there. I also came across other sites, (trying to avoid them of course)that didn't talk fondly of the SDA church or EGW. This is where my eyes started to open. I orderd Dale Ratzlaff's books Sabbath in Crisis and Cultic Doctrine and read them both through in about 1 days time. (That's good for me)That's when I knew I had to make a decision. It was more than just ignoring things I don't believe. I was no longer comfortable saying I'm a Seventh-day Adventist but I don't agree with all SDA beliefs. Especially when I now know what SDA really believe. I didn't know before. When you are part of an organization, you agree to the rules and codes of conuct. You also uphold any mission or vision that the organization set forth. Agreeing to do whatever it takes to help the organization meet or fulfill it's mission. If you decide that you can no longer uphold their vision and mission or be found in violation of adhearing to the mission and rules, you are either let go of or you decide to leave in search of an organization that more suits what you believe or willing to do. For me, this was the case. I could no longer consider myself SDA because I couldn't see myself representing SDAism at the same time telling others I don't uphold certain SDA beliefs. Can you say contradicion? Tami, I'm not good at verbal communication either. However, you know what you know. Continue to study and pray and allow God to reveal The Truth to you. I was never good at taking tests. So I had to pray and ask God to bring back enough of what I studied to pass. Same goes here. The Holy Spirit will give you the words to say. Trust. I'll be praying for you. godssonjp | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 369 Registered: 6-2006  |
Tami, regarding the sermon that your friend heard, I had a similar experience with my in-laws, who are SDA. They have been passing around books about the evils of contemporary worship for about a year now. One day last spring I had a conversation with my sis-in-law about it. She told me about a group of worship singers who were singing in their own styles and not trying to respect the traditions of the church. She went on to condemn all the churches that let that awful music into their services. This lead to a tirade about needing rules in order to become perfect so Jesus will come again. So, my s-i-l controls when Jesus is coming? What I also noticed was her opinion that if you don't worship her way, then don't worship at all. (how anyone could discourage worshipping God is beyond me!) And I was left with a question. If my s-i-l can become perfect, then why do we need Jesus at all? Basically what I took from the conversation was that my in-law's worship had a direct link to keeping their Salvation. But what I'd like to know if that's true, is where in the Bible are the guidelines for worship? Where are the regulations and descriptions of songs we're supposed to sing, and how we're expected to behave? After all, the Bible says that David worshipped outside in his underwear! Blessings, Leigh Anne | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 455 Registered: 4-2006  |
"After all, the Bible says that David worshipped outside in his underwear!" Leigh Anne Where does it say that exactly? | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 370 Registered: 6-2006 |
Mwh, Great story... 2 Samuel 6:14-23 I don't imagine he was wearing tidy whities though. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5204 Registered: 12-2003 |
2 Samuel 6:14: "David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the Lord with all his might," 2 Samuel 6:20: "When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, 'How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!' " Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5205 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ooops--sorry, Leigh Anne! We were preparing our posts at the same time! (Tidy whities...you make me laugh!) Colleen | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 492 Registered: 2-2001 |
That is one of my favorite stories-- It shows a joyous relationship between a man and his God. Who's to say that the funneral service music of traditional services doesn't put God to sleep. (just joking) The next texts indicate that the comments Michal made David so mad that he never slept with her again--she never had any children. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 326 Registered: 9-2006  |
I worship in my underwear just about every morning and the Lord has never said anything about it, of course I never went outside (Too Rainy and cold). | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3263 Registered: 3-2004 |
Concerning emotions, I did not like them in church because as a teenager in SDA academy, when there was an appeal to let go of our sins and we were asked to go forward, I cried. After going forward, no one counseled me on how to find Christ and how to let go. That feeling of remorse and sorrow would pass and I would go back to my usual behavior. It got that I would not let anything affect me because I had learned that nothing was done about it and I did not change. Now, I cry in church when I hear a good, God filled sermon, when I can feel the Holy Spirit in the congregation and when I am so happy because God loves sinful me. I greet people as they come into my church and I smile from ear to ear and am so happy, from the depths of my soul. Oh, and I talk to God wherever I am from the shower to working with my patients. In the shower it is out loud and working with my patients it is in my mind. God has never told me to stop smiling or talking to him. He is always awesome. Diana | ||
| Brian4 Registered user Username: Brian4 Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2006 |
Jeremy, glad you got the humor part. So sad that many in the SDA group are convinced this is their future. River........... Too much information, I can imagine David dancing and praising the Lord. However, I do not need the mental picture of well never mind......... Just kidding The thing is worship is an individual expression of our Love, Trust, and Respect for our Heavenly Father. How we do it is totally between you and God. In a church setting there are many forms many rituals, some traditional some contemporary. What we consider traditional today, was considered contemporary in it's time. Hereís the way I see it, we have choices. Do we think for a minute that we can reject forms of worship that make us feel uncomfortable? We are not the object of worship, Christ is! If you would like to see change in the style of worship, shop around or get involved in your local congregation. I think as long as the music is Christ centered and uplifting it should be prayerfully considered. In most cases in small churches, too few people are willing to be change agents. The music program is very important to the worship service and I would like to hear a good mixture of well planned and refined selections that tie into the sermon or at least set the tone for worship. Psalm 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation. Psalm 98:4-6 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise. Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm. With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King. The text does not say ìlet us use only traditional songs from our hymnal printed in 1849 authorized by the churchî. | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 119 Registered: 10-2005 |
I thought I could stay SDA even though I never bought into EGW,and I did for over 12 yrs. But the joy in the church is what got to me, the worship was always dry and the sermons always the same,(IJ,jewlery,sabbath,endtimes scrae tactics)but because EGW was in the SS,in the pulpit and always lurking somewhere in the church I had to go. My last Sabbath at church I thought I was going to scream out loud as I watched folks go through the motions,I couldnt get out of there fast enough,and like you tami I still have some SDA teachings that I believe to be biblical but it's not enough to keep me in the church. I actually know ppl that have talked about stock piling and moving to a cave for endtime prepartion.  and dont watch tv because they think there is a chip in the tv watching your everymove. sigh....... Dawn | ||
| Godssonjp Registered user Username: Godssonjp Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2007 |
During the 22 years of being SDA, I've noticed that the Spirit is hindered tremendously. If someone shows very little emotion, that's ok. But if they stand and shout Hallelujah or clap at the "wrong" time, well, you know what happens. Everything had to be done "in decency and in order". That meant, following the program exactly as it was printed. If your too happy about something, better not show it during divine worship. It's a shame that most Adventists are SADventists. | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 345 Registered: 8-2006 |
Funny about the "decency and in order" and "God is a God of order" when you read the account of the Trial of Israel Dammon. Seems EGW was sort of "out of order" on that occasion. Susan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5227 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ha! Out of order, indeed! Colleen |
