| Author | Message | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 361 Registered: 6-2006  |
Yup, now he's using the arguments that Stan and that other guy were using on this forum. I had a feeling that would happen. In reading over some of his posted "attacks", I'm realizing that a lot of them might cause searching SDA's (and even main stream Christians) an eye-opening experience. The whole "attack" approach he's using could very well backfire. God know's his sheep and will reveal himself to those who are truly his. | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 156 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thanks Diana for the link. I guess I don't venture into the theology section too much so I missed it. After reading the above posts, I see it's going to be quite interesting. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1526 Registered: 7-2003 |
Bill, unfortunately, I'm not sure he's alone in that revisionist world. Some of the things he has said B has also said...but B at least acknowledged that there were 'some' within the church who believed the things I pointed out as having issue with. In trying to be 'gracious' (or making excuses for ignoring what I saw), I assumed he had to ignore those things/people to justify staying in the religion. God calls us to give up everything...and I'm personally learning how 'everything' everything is...to follow him. Remember the lengths the founders were willing to go to to justify 1844, some people will go to any lengths to keep from facing 'truth' and 'reality'. I know I've lived in my share of denial as well. Some on this board were more forthright in calling a spade a spade, and others were more tenuous wanting to give WOW a chance. Either way, honest inquiry and grace was not reciprocated with honest response. That really speaks to his integrity, not ours. When you open yourself up to someone, you risk their intentions towards you are not genuine and true. IF he believes we are brothers and sisters in Christ, scripture has a mandate for unity, not division. Stan has honest disagreements with some people's perspective and those things are debated honestly. I don't think anyone here has anything against Stan or anyone else because we disagree on some things. I've debated him on issues in the past and if he's ever in the area, I would love him to call and meet for lunch or just to say hello in person. We're going to spend eternity together and both of us will be finding out where we were 'wrong' soon enough. Being cookie cutter believers is not the goal here. Teaching people to have a personal relationship with God is (as I see it). Similarly, seeking truth is not the problem, covering up WOW's deception against 'us' is and misrepresenting the 'research' falls in that deception category. It is clear people want an answer for 'former' claims that do not require them to question their religion's teachings. It's easier to malign the messenger by selective editing than address the whole message IN ITS CONTEXT. It's disappointing that honest disagreement has become personal, character attacks. But we've seen it in other SDA defenders who have attacked Dale Ratzlaff, Mark Martin, Greg Taylor, just to name the recent ones. Long before them there was Canright and the list is extensive. People on this forum presented their positions with honesty (even disagreeing amongst ourselves), and he is skewing it or misrepresenting it in dishonesty. That's on him, not us. He could probably get a job at a tabloid with that kind of 'reporting'. Sells papers, perhaps, but doesn't get anyone closer to the truth of the story. Like Grace has said, perhaps more people will be lurkng now than ever before to 'find out' for themselves. It's a shame, that's all I can say. No one likes being betrayed, used or lied to. "We" answered WOW honestly. He can't say the same. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 946 Registered: 4-2000  |
I am surprised, yet grateful, that WOW posted my remarks on his website. I wouldn't be able to say the same thing on another SDA website. God is good all the time! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3252 Registered: 3-2004  |
WOW, Thanks for telling on your web site how you came to get the quotes and for answering some of our questions. I ask you to remember this though. This is a site for "former" adventists and those who question the doctrine and those who are transitioning out of adventism. Some of those people have had horrendous experiences and have been very badly treated by their SDA family and friends. Being human, it is hard to be nice when that is happening. Leaving adventism is like a divorce/death and one goes through the grieving process. There are 5 different stages that one goes through. I do not remember all of them. Denial and acceptance are the first and last. I do not remember the other 3. It is like this because adventism is such a close knit culture and most adventist's life revolves around the church and SDA family and friends. I hope you can understand this. So people make remarks because of what they have experienced. They come here to FAF to learn to heal and go forward so they do not become stuck in one place because that is not healthy or good for any one. When one talks about the things that bother them and everything is out in the open, it is much easier to deal with because then the person knows what is going on inside them and they know better what to pray about and ask God to help them with it or turn it over completely to God. They also know they are not the only ones who have gone through those horrendous experiences. Personally, I have not had a difficult time leaving adventism. No one shunned me or told me I was lost or going to hell because I quit keeping the sabbath. God has been good to me in not letting that happen. But it has happened to others. Each of us here are in various stages on our journey with Jesus Christ. You know, God understands that and for that I am so thankful. Because of the experiences I have had, I can encourage/pray/listen/empathize to some one else better. I do not know what each person on this forum has gone through in every detail, but I do know that each has contributed to my growth. I encourage them and praise God, especially when they discover Christ and leave the SDA church. By the way, you did not misquote me when I praised the one lady when she said she was no longer SDA. That came from my heart. As for what went on between you and the Tinkers, we have only your side of it. I am glad you daughter is doing what God is leading her to do and becoming a Methodist minister. I pray that God will use her in a mighty way. I do continue to pray for you and pray that God will lead you and use you. Our God is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3253 Registered: 3-2004 |
Wow, I forgot to say that when anyone comes to this forum and writes from the heart what is going on in their lives and minds, they do so, anonymously, because they feel it is a safe place to do so. This is a safe place and we want to keep it that way. The person writing will find that some one else has experienced what they are going through and can help them. Again, I emphasize this is a forum for "former" adventists, those questioning their beliefs and those transitioning out. We need a safe place to vent. When a current adventist reads the posts and if they do not like what is said, they have to remember that this is NOT a forum for current adventists. We all need a safe place to vent. I do continue to pray for you. Diana | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 365 Registered: 6-2006 |
The more I think about it, the more I see that Wow came in here for the sole purpose to gather "attacks" for support of his minneapolis web site. He wasn't here just to do research. If he was really had Christian motives, why wouldn't he just headlined our posts with "This is what Formers are saying" and follow it with "I'm sad that people are leaving the SDA church, how can we re-invent the church?" That's what a person with a pure heart and honest motives would've done. Deceit is really Satan's dept. Had to get that last thought out of my head. Letting Wow go now. Diana, thank you for your loving and eloquent words. You are as beautiful as your heart is. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 411 Registered: 11-2004 |
WOW, I hope you don't mind if I quote you. Here is a quote from your site: "We feel confident that any sincere seeker for truth will see through such misrepresentations but at the same time, we ourselves must be willing to sincerely look at truth as well. All is not well with Adventists and Adventism. We must look honestly at who we are and what our message is. That is what Minneapolis2008 is all about. Minneapolis2008 is for people who reject "attack theology" but at the same time recognize that in much of Adventism we desperately need to tap into the zeal and power and mission and message God designs for us to have." I am trying to understand your purpose in your attack page. You mention you are against attack theology, yet have a whole page with supposedly revealing quotes. If you view the quotes as attacks and you are against attack theology then why do you give the quotes more attention than what was intended? How does quoting former Adventists relate to your mission? I realize you believe you need to expose what you believe is great error, but I don't understand how that information would benefit you, or formers, or other Adventists. I realize you are attempting to make Adventism more gospel-centered with Minneapolis2008, but I just don't see the connection on why "attacks" from former Adventists relate to your purpose. It would make more sense to quote former Adventists in their focus on the good news of Jesus. So that comes back to my question...what is your purpose? Who does this help? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1529 Registered: 7-2003 |
I think WOW misses the point of my/our view of his selective clips. He represents those comments as the whole of the forum, even with his small print disclaimer. I have not been here for a few months, but for YEARS. If WOW had included positive comments from FAF aside from those he found offensive, perhaps the term deceptive would not come up as strongly. Does anyone remember a few years ago, there was a fire of some sort on one of the SDA school campuses (I don't remember all the details), but it was posted as a topic and people prayed for those adventist students and their families. It was followed for a day or two as articles were in the news....where is a clip like that showing how 'we' prayed for those adventists who suffered loss and sorrow...formers standing behind currents in their hour of need....bearing one another's burdens, so to say? There was no rejoicing at their grief or loss. But you wouldn't see that side of our forum from WOWs selective representation of 'us'. To take a few comments, for the pure intention of generalizing about people's mission or purpose in life... that's not honest. As I said in my post, I know of no 'stranger' ... a person I have never personally met, but only encountered on this forum ... who has done more for me during my situation than Colleen has. No one. To hear her words taken as they were on that site is called stacking the deck. He put up his own judgment scale, deemed the good things unworthy of "quoting" (because it won't inflame people towards his cause??) thereby leaving an intentionally false impression for anyone who will not follow up with their own research to explore for themselves. To my knowledge, there is not yet a scripture passage that says one has to be adventist, baptist, AoG or any of the other flavors of church-buildings out there. One has to follow God. If God leads people out of the adventist church, and those people follow God as he leads, adventists ought to rejoice that someone is following God's leading. WOWs goal is to build the adventist church in seeming indifference to God's leading that just might be to the contrary for some. That's his choice, and he is welcome to pursue it. But it seems if he wants to be deemed honest, in all of the thousands and thousands of posts he could have chosen to use, there are many many good things he neglected to post. He intentionally chose ONLY those that would turn people against FAF. It would not help his conference if he could not identify a tangible enemy...and he's decided that's us! If I drink and drive I can lose my driver's license. Those are the rules when I get a license, and no one 'owes' us the right to violate the boundaries of the forum rules either. There are other forums for other positions. I don't have a problem with that. Isn't that what Pastor O'Fill did on the Revival site a while back to a number of you? If WOW has a problem with the rules, then he should hold SDA web forums to the same standard. Otherwise, we've seen the fruit of his labor on his own site and it speaks for itself. If he choses to believe he gave a balanced, fair and accurate representation of the forum, God is his judge. We know our own hearts, our intentions and the leading of God in our lives. Rather than seeking to build up the man-made institute of the adventist church, however, it seems a higher calling might be to build up the Christ-made church of all believers, be they jew or gentile. I just don't believe God is honored by these man-made divisions. (That's not to side-step the very serious doctrinal errors I believe exist in the adventist church, but that's a different topic  ) I personally stand by my analysis that his representation of FAF was deceptive and dishonest. I hope my reasons are evident. There was a day I held my tongue so as not to appear disagreeative, but all I've usually ended up feeling was walked on (no pun intended). But that is just me, so I'll put my soap box away for the evening and head to bed. For those of you on the west coast, enjoy the rest of your evening. (Message edited by melissa on January 04, 2007) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3255 Registered: 3-2004 |
U2bsda, I do agree with your thoughts above. It appears to me it would be better if WoW had written "this is what former SDA have written about why they left and how they discovered God and what God has done for them since we left. How can we stop this exodus?" I would respond, as an SDA, to that much better. But that is my opinion post SDA. You make a good point. Diana | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3256 Registered: 3-2004 |
WoW, On your website you have an email address if we want to communicate with you. I prefer to do it this way. That way nothing is secretive and in the open. When you first came on here I never expected you to agree with things we said. But I was surprised at your reaction to things said about EGW. You know from our stories that for some of us, she was a big reason that led some of us to leave adventism. She was for me and I do consider her a false prophet. Did you expect us to defend her?? You say you have benefitted from her writings. Good for you. I no longer read them. I will read the Bible for counsel, teaching, reproof or what ever else I need. I will read other Christian writers to enlighten me, but I know they are not inspired like the Bible. You know, in none of what you posted of what I wrote, I said nothing of EGW. Hmmm??? I began to wonder and I will keep those thoughts to myself as I cannot get into anyones head. I do continue to pray for you and all adventists. Our God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 304 Registered: 8-2006 |
Thanks, Melissa. I agree totally. And, in looking at WOW's site, I find it extraordinarily interesting that he refuses to post Ramone's 5 questions and his answers to them because "it didn't seem right to post something that was only half completed", yet he's sure not worried about posting back to any comments made on this thread, mostly attacking Colleen and Richard because he was banned from the site. Those selected quotes from Colleen, Jeremy, Bill and others are only half-completed in their CONTEXT of a thread. Wonder why that is? It's easier to pontificate than to address what the bible says about those questions? Susan (Message edited by SusanS on January 05, 2007) | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 305 Registered: 8-2006 |
Since many of the members here base their thoughts, opinions and their posts on solid research regarding the doctrines, beliefs, practices, and deception of the SDA denomination,(the bible being the first source, of course), I thought I would post them on this thread. The links are also listed on the web site here under the "links" section, along with many others. www.exadventist.com www.ellenwhite.org www.truthorfables.com Susan (Message edited by SusanS on January 05, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 322 Registered: 9-2006  |
Well walk wrote every word of this, of course River done a little bit of finagling. But it did come from his words, Oh, the uses of cut, copy and paste. What is their pain? What have I as an Adventist done to contribute to that pain? Yes Adventists do plenty of rebuking the only one I can find fault with is me. pastor does something really stupid I strike back self righteously shake the dust from my feet and remove myself from that congregation I have been horribly guilty I have acted in ways that have caused people to doubt God's goodness and love I hope I have acted in such a way as to drive someone from the church It is interesting in a dead SDA Church. I have struggled and wept over all of the issues of Ellen White brought so much despair into my heart that I finally dropped my dreams. Every time Mission Spotlight plays in SS School It's always 15 to 25 mentions of something Adventist vs. 0 references to God. That is inexcusable! I get that fear From Adventist preachers who knew how to scare people but who did not know how to save people. I could go on and on but I hope you are starting to see, forces me to look closely at myself and what I believe. "I am moving to Phoenix because I love hot weather and because of the great opportunities for bogus thinking. So I would not leave the Mormon Church I would do all I could to help others get their head screwed on the right way That is why I rejoined the Adventist Church. After many painful mistakes along these lines, I am beginning to learn that my desires or feelings is very dangerous. I have been able to preach at my church a number of times. My subject matter is always California and Oregon. In fact, just now I received a call from an 85 year old lady who is a member of our fellowship she said, "You tell those young people that the Adventist Church has been dead wrong the Adventist Church has been a ministration of death instead of a ministration of life." In fact I have been focused on WalkOnWater have misrepresented always the walk of faith.   | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 413 Registered: 11-2004 |
Wow, Based on your response to my questions it is my understanding that you believe because Jehosophat was warned of enemies it is your duty to warn Adventists about enemies and that Minneapolis 2008 is about coming to God and having Him destroy the enemies of Adventism. That makes things a bunch clearer for me now. Maybe I am slow, but it just clicked for me. I had been under the assumption that it was your desire to make Adventism more gospel-centered, but it seems that the main purpose is to save Adventism and that you are wanting every doctrine to point to Jesus in order to save Adventism. Having every doctrine point to Jesus is a great thing, but I again come to purpose. If the purpose of our actions is to save Adventism then that becomes our focus. If our purpose is to have every doctrine point to Jesus no matter what happens to Adventism then the focus would be totally different. It appears as though you are under the assumption that if Adventism were gospel-centered we would not have left. I believe your ideas of gospel-centered are quite different from mine and others here. If Adventism were to become gospel-centered I do not see it looking anywhere near the same as it does now. If I were to leave my present church and go attend a church of a different denomination my pastor would be fine with that. I know Adventism because that is where I spent most of my life thusfar. I know that other churches/denominations are Bablyon and an Adventist pastor would always have a problem with a member leaving to go to another denomination. An Adventist church that is gospel-centered will have no problem with people leaving the church and following God in other denominations. In fact, if you go ask a local Baptist pastor if there were people in his church that left to go attend another church he would say that it happens often. I don't think you will find that he has a problem with it because although churches have differences, they are united in the gospel. My spouse pointed out something to me that it is not denominations that have problems with people leaving churches to go to another, but religions. Leaving Catholicism, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam, Judism, etc are all difficult things to do because one is confronted with religious leaders who will declare you lost, shun you, and some will even kill you. If you do a poll on here of formers who left the church how many of them do you think were confronted with being told that they may be or will be lost if they leave the SDA church? I know I heard it myself from someone near and dear to me, and it was also ingrained in Adventist teaching. A church that is gospel-centered will be just that - gospel-centered. The gospel stands apart from any denominational differences. The gospel is simple and the whole gospel can be told in only 8 minutes. The gospel is the creation of man, the fall of man, the need for a Savior, God's plan to redeem man, Jesus' virgin birth, Jesus' death and resurrection, Jesus' ascension, our reconciliation to God, and we are NOW seated with Him in heavenly places!! It would be great if Adventism were to become gospel-centered. However, I don't think it would look like Adventism anymore. The exclusivity or "remnant" status would have to fall away and the 3 angels messages would be left for the angels to do. The Bible would have to become the sole authority and all other writings or teachings would have to be judged through what the Bible says. Purpose and vision are important. Our purpose and vision should always be for Jesus and not for some organization whether it is good or bad. Being Jesus-centered is great! Being Jesus-centered to save an organization is not our purpose. Our purpose is to bring Jesus to the lost and dying world. Then again I guess our definition of "lost" is different too | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3259 Registered: 3-2004 |
Wow, What I am having a difficult time with is why you came on this forum, for whatever reason, as a current SDA. You knew we would disagree with you on many things. It just does not make sense to me. From reading our stories you knew we rejected EGW and that many of us do not "keep" the sabbath. We give our reasons and whether you agree with our theology or not, this is a forum for FORMER SDAs. Some of us have fond memories of adventism, some of us don't. My fondest memory is that I received a good education. I am finding that Biblically it lacked, but I am making up for that now. So, knowing you would face opposition, what was your purpose for being on FAF??? I am not believing that there was no deception. That is just me. I will continue to pray for FAF and all its members and for you. Diana | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 667 Registered: 10-2002  |
I've kept silent so far, but generally because I don't know what to say or where to start. This situation is *painful*. I've emailed WoW a few times and have one or two emails awaiting reply, but I have not looked at the Minneapolis2008 website, nor have I thoroughly figured out what's happened or what is continuing to happen. I know only that it is so painful I don't want to go any further with emailing him. You all are part of my family in Christ (FAF), and I don't like anybody misquoting anybody or accusing anybody. I know we're sometimes a bit rash, and yet I feel that many assumptions were made from the start and that whatever information was gathered was gathered to support those assumptions instead of truly listening. I'm by no means the only person here who displayed patience and a willingness to talk. And I am by no means alone in lifting up God's agape love -- His love is lifted up by all of you much more than I can express. If someone were to sit in on an incest survivors 12-step group, they would hear a lot of railing against the members' abusive parents. If they stuck around long enough, they would witness the healing. But it would be a total mistake to take their railings out of context and accuse them of dishonoring their parents. It would also be woefully ignorant of what abuse they suffered. Because such an act would be focusing on the "attacks" on their parents, the blind observer would then completely miss the healing that was taking place before his eyes. Adventism began with ignoring the Scripture, covering up a mistake (deception), and then further creating a shame-based theology which would ensure conformity to a certain criteria (the Law) by which spiritual children would be either accepted or rejected. Although subsequent generations of leaders recognized these errors, they continued to propogate them in order to preserve heritage and institution. Dissenters were hushed because by protesting they were "dishonoring" their church---their spiritual parents. Essentially this is a form of spiritual incest (I know that term is repulsive, but incest is simply a parent using a child to meet his/her own needs, and making the child feel guilty if he/she protests--it is an abuse of legitimate parental authority). This is what generations of Adventists have experienced. And just like many physical incest survivors, they would sooner blame themselves and their own inadequacies instead of accuse their parents of doing wrong. Just like incest survivors, they would have an extremely hard time recognizing that they were abused and then coming to terms with it. Many incest survivors are never able to admit that what their parents did was wrong... many never heal, but simply try to forget (and actually do). Then they--the victims--unintentionally pass on the abuse to their children. The victims become the victimizers. The cycle of abuse continues from one generation to another. Adventism's founders began the cycle and have passed it on from one generation to the next; each generation has had to struggle with denial---with experiencing the pain & problems but then being silenced about protesting them, even feeling guilty about recognizing that something was wrong from the start. This has left generations of Adventists acting like abused children, fearful of admitting the errors of their spiritual parents, and then getting angry at anyone who blows the whistle and "dishonors" the spiritual parents. So let it be said that we here--at the FAF forum--are something like a spiritual-incest survivors group. We have seen clearly that our spiritual parents passed on a cycle of generational spiritual abuse to us. But as we go through this further uncovering, we receive God's healing love and choose to forgive them and release them from having to "pay" for our pain. That was paid for by our Savior on the Cross, who has felt all of these things (our pains) much deeper than we are able to recognize ourselves. We may seem shockingly frank about what our spiritual parents did (and what our spiritual great-great-great grandparents did at the start), but we do so because we know that what is hidden cannot be healed unless it is uncovered. If it is covered up, the wound will only grow more infected. Occasionally a little bitterness will come out, but it is *coming OUT*. Some of us take longer than others, but it is nonetheless coming *out* of us, and we are being filled with God's love and forgiveness. We are being healed. And we pray for the healing of all of our brothers and sisters still suffering under the generational cycle of spiritual abuse. ***** Of the dialogue with WoW, naturally I want to step in and be some kind of peacemaker. I want to help bring grace into the painful situation. But it is very painful. I long to discuss things with Adventists who are willing to listen, and to pray with them together... but this is very difficult now in the dialogue with WoW in light of his interactions with the FAF forum. I must pray and stand back. ***** Lord, please bring Your healing presence into this situation. Everyone feels offended. Help us lay down our right to demand satisfaction for our wounds... help us forgive and stand firm in Your love, Your agape grace to all. Where things (people) cannot be moved, give us the agape strength to stand firm in Your love, even in Your tough love, toughly in love. I pray that You pour out into us a confidence that even if we remain silent, You hear our prayers! And Your hand is sufficient and mighty to soften hearts and work *all things* out for Your glory. We praise You for doing that in all things, Lord God! Father, we don't know what to do, but we trust in You. In Jesus' name, amen. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 323 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well said Ramone, well said indeed, a spirit has come in among you to upset you and to plague you, better to cut that spirit out and let it go skittering off, it is not fruitful to try to minister to a wrong spirit,and it cannot be reasoned with. That spirit has carried the man wherever he would. I ask no quarter from spirits of deception and give none. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3260 Registered: 3-2004 |
Ramone, You said so well what I tried to say in one of my posts. Thank you. One thing I did not realize is how painful the whole situation is. I want to cry and probably will when I am finished writing this. God we do need your healing presence here. Send your Holy Spirit to each of us who write here. May your name be honored and glorified in all we say and do. You are always awesome. Diana | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3262 Registered: 3-2004 |
WoW, I thought I was through with my thoughts on you, but I have one more. How does one leaving the SDA church constitute an attack on adventism? How does one congratulating and praising God for this leaving constitute an attack on adventism? I continue to pray for FAF and for you. Diana |
