| Author | Message | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 426 Registered: 11-2004 |
Okay, I don't think I heard about the "shut door" when I was an Adventist. I guess it was a pretty good secret. Anyway, am I correct in that Ellen had visions regarding the shut door? If so, how can she be looked at with any credibility? Is that one of the reasons why the Bible is discounted as in error so the inspiration of the Bible is on par with her inspiration? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 362 Registered: 9-2006  |
Here is some good links concerning shut door. http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw15.htm Readem and weep. Shut the door Richard, they are coming in the window. (excerpt from an old song) heh heh. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 363 Registered: 9-2006 |
I donít care how many times it is said ìI never did believe in EGW, you did believe in her if you ever believed in the Adventist church. No matter how many times you trace the teachings of the Adventist church it traces right back to Ellen G. White, it is from there it sprang and it is from there it continues. The Sabbath teaching of Adventist springs from Ellen G. White and others who decided to go back and live by the letter of the law, and her ìvisionsî and ìTeachingsî which she declared is directly from the throne of God. You cannot separate Adventism from its roots; I donít care how modern they look today or how good they sound. Yes, some of the beliefs are borrowed from the Christian community, but there are certain beliefs one must uphold in order to put the name Christian after your name or before it. ìMr. John Doe, Christianî, and the Adventist I believe fail that test. Here is an excerpt from one of my earlier post, I donít give it to insist on my being right but no one ever responded to it and I would like your views so here it is again. Of course what I was referring to was the minimal requirements for one to take on the name ìChristianî. For instance if one is born in America he would probably say ìI am Christianî even though he may not know Christ. The word Christian though from a Bible perspective takes on whole new meaning and assumptions. So even though one may claim he is a ìChristianî does not give him the right nor privilege to call himself by that name and there are gaggles of people who do just that. Now over against this was my questioning of whether the Adventist (at large) is a Christian or is he counterfeit. One who takes on the name of Christian but is in fact, not Christian is a counterfeit. So again my quote: ìNow I would like to submit some bare essentials that I think one would have to believe in order to call himself Christian. I have attempted to break down the essentials in its simplest form. 1. Believe that Christ died and rose the third day. 1 Cor 15:1 and Romans 10: 9,10 2. Sola feida (think I spelled that right) faith alone. 3. Christ deity. 4. Absolute and complete atonement for our sins at the cross. O.K. so here is my take on this and how they relate. Without #2 number #1 is no good, it would have no purpose. Without #3 number #1 and #2 would be no good. Again, no purpose. Without #4 number #1, #2, #3 is no good. The problem is not in building the thing that I got stacked up there, the problem would be to dismantle it once you build it. For example lets look at it as a four legged stool (sort of anyway). If you add the Adventist works to it you knock the number #4 leg off and the center doesnít hold. If you subtract number #3 the center wonít hold and so on. They are all interrelated and complete. What is your take on it? References from Referred link, "These books contain clear, straight, unalterable truth and they should certainly be appreciated. The instruction they contain is not of human production." (Letter H-339, Dec. 26, 1904) "These books, giving the instruction that the Lord has given me during the last sixty years, contain light from heaven, and will bear the test of investigation." (Selected Messages, vol. 1, p. 35, 1906) I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision - the precious rays of light shining from the throne" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, pp. 63-67). I just want to ask you, how can a good tree spring up and bear good fruit if the root is rotten and full of worms and maggots and all manner of deceit? Tell me that if you can? I really would like to know. Excerpt from: http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw84.htm Sister White in the early years of the work taught the ìshut doorî view of the sanctuary service, and taught it on the authority of her visions, and in the name of inspiration. All the pioneers taught the ìshut doorî theory during those years. When sufficient time had elapsed to demonstrate that the views held were mistaken, they were modified and revised. Important passages teaching the ìshut doorî were either eliminated from Sister Whiteís ìEarly Writingsî or else explained away by notes claiming that they did not teach that view. A publisherís preface was introduced claiming that in that edition ìno changes from the original work had been made, except the occasional employment of a new word, or a sentence, to better express the idea, and no portion of the work had been omittedî, which certainly was not true with reference to the original publication of the earlier visions, and was consequently very misleading. Did the shut door teaching exist? Either that or this guy is fake. U2, I apologize for splitting off in seemingly different directions of thought here but it seems to me it all relates. It seems to me they would certainly have to have discounted the Bible in order to believe her. River | ||
| Rejoyce719 Registered user Username: Rejoyce719 Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2007 |
No doubt you did not hear about the "shut door" from Adventists. I did not either until recently and I was born and raised in the SDA church. Ellen White claimed that the door of mercy was shut to anyone outside their group, I believe, just after the "great disappointment". She insisted that there would not be any new converts after that time. That it was a trick of Satan if anyone appeared to be converted outside their small group. The SDA church has hidden this fact. This discovery is one of the main factors that showed me that EGW is not a messanger of God. I agree with you, River, that if the "Root is Rotten" it is Rotten. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3298 Registered: 3-2004  |
Rejoyce, Like you, I did not know a lot of things the SDA church taught until I decided not to be rebaptized. I quit the idea of being rebaptized when I learned of the plagiarism of EGW and having others write for her and taking credit. I do not agree with the doctrines of the SDA church. I really feel sorry for all the members who think, like I used to, that it is the remnant church. That is why we have the Prayer Circle to pray for all SDAs. Diana | ||
| Godssonjp Registered user Username: Godssonjp Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2007 |
You didn't hear about the shut door AS an adventist and you won't hear about it FROM an adventist either. Most adventists don't know that she taught the shut door. They wouldn't believe you if you told them. I told a friend of mine who is SDA and he looked at me like I had three heads. So, I left it alone. I guess James White couldn't come up with somehting to change that "doctrine" so he just got rid of it all together. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 429 Registered: 11-2004 |
Does anyone know if seminarians ever learn about the shut door? Are things kept under the rug from them too or do they know about them and are in full agreement with keeping those things under the rug? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 366 Registered: 9-2006 |
u2 who are seminarians? do you mean Adventist theological cemetery, er I mean seminary? or evangelical seminaries? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 785 Registered: 8-2004  |
I don' know how it is in seminary, but I did learn about the shut door rather early in life (at least before I was 10). I did not discover EGW's failings and foibles connected with it until much later, but I was taught that the early Adventists believed that probation was over for the whole world and only slowly came to revise that idea. Some then decided that probationary time was only over for those who had had the opportunity to hear and reject the 'Message of 1844' and that the innocently ignorant masses were still savable (which left most of the world savable and left at lest some Adventists wht the idea that NOT sharing the message might be a good thing). | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 695 Registered: 7-2004  |
I also seem to recall hearing about the shut door at some point in my childhood - maybe in academy Bible class. But it wasn't the full story; instead it was presented as a misunderstanding that they corrected later. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 387 Registered: 6-2006  |
I'm curious, does anyone here know if that doctrine was ever fully renounced by the Adventist church? I would think that just ommitting it shouldn't count. ??? | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 367 Registered: 8-2006 |
Leigh Anne, Here is a chronology: http://www.ellenwhite.org/chrono.htm I don't think they have ever "publicly" denounded it...just ignored it. Susan | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 110 Registered: 7-2000 |
River, you said; "I donít care how many times it is said ìI never did believe in EGW, you did believe in her if you ever believed in the Adventist church. No matter how many times you trace the teachings of the Adventist church it traces right back to Ellen G. White, it is from there it sprang and it is from there it continues. The Sabbath teaching of Adventist springs from Ellen G. White and others who decided to go back and live by the letter of the law, and her ìvisionsî and ìTeachingsî which she declared is directly from the throne of God. You cannot separate Adventism from its roots; I donít care how modern they look today or how good they sound. Yes, some of the beliefs are borrowed from the Christian community, but there are certain beliefs one must uphold in order to put the name Christian after your name or before it." River, as a "never-has-been" you do understand what is sda. Thank you for saying it so clearly. Have I told you, that I do love and appreciate your insights, humor and presence on FAF?? Well I am telling you now, even if I did before. Erma | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 368 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well thank you for that Erma but you all are the blessing to me, you all that write on here encourage my heart to the utmost and I thank God for each and every one of you. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5256 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, I second Erma's post above. You completely understand the essence of Adventism. I am convinced that this understanding comes from Godóbecause the deception of it is so subtle and effective. God alone can sweep away the veil of confusion and misunderstanding and reveal what is true and what is false. I am grateful for your openness to seeing what is real. I also heard about the "shut door" vaguely at some time in my youth or childhood, but I could not have told you what it was. I'm not surprised it has been ignored or submerged; it is such confirmation that she could not have received those messages from God. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 950 Registered: 4-2000  |
U2, I talked with a SDA senior pastor, in a large institutional church, who has a Master's degree from AU seminary. He had never heard of EGW's two embarrassing books on sex; namely, An Appeal to Mothers (1864) and Solemn Appeal (1870). Also, LLU doesn't instruct doctors-to-be to charge less than the non-SDA physicians and to only treat same-gender patients as Ellen White clearly taught. Adventists are notorious in selecting only their favorite thoughts from EGW and the Bible. The many negative facts about Adventism are never taught in their classrooms. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3308 Registered: 3-2004 |
Back in 1970 when I lived in Costa Mesa, CA the SDA church I attended had a series of meetings on the SOP. I bought the books and started reading them. I remember reading about the slaves where EGW wrote that God would consider them as if they never were or something to that effect. That should have turned on a red light, but it did not. When my youngest brother found that comment, and he is married to a black woman, he did not like it. From what he tells me and the way I understand it, he started studying SDA beliefs and as a result he had his name removed from the SDA church. So, Dennis, I agree that many negative facts from EGW/about adventism are never taught in the SDA classrooms. BTW, I have never heard of those two books either. Diana | ||
| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 68 Registered: 7-2004 |
I've been doing quite a bit of research and reading through all the historical writing on the Shut Door. I have some of it written up in notes on my experimental wiki. I have most of the quotes in full from EGW along with many of the other citations - some also in full text. On the seminary, and undergrad ministerial: Yes, it is mentioned, but trivialized. It is more associated with Millerites and simply referred to as part of the errors that were transmitted over. We were also taught that EGW and our pioneers "briefly" believed it but that EGW quickly corrected it from vision. This is not entirely accurate - our pioneers took the more general Matthew 25 related shut door from Millerites (of which they were a part), blended it with Sanctuary "doors" and came up with a much more extreme teaching. We were known as "Sabbath and Shut Door Adventists", as compared to "Open Door Adventists". On her correcting from vision, I find no evidence during the period of December 1844 (first vision) through 1851 where she is strongly refuting the error, and much evidence to the contrary. As to whether or not she is blatantly supporting, teaching and confirming the extreme Shut Door (probation closed for the whole world except those who received the Midnight Cry and readied themselves for the Bridegroom), the reader must decide. In my opinion she is believing and supporting the error during the early days and it appears that she is using "visions" to support it. Certainly, James White, as editor, published materials that strongly, strongly taught that probation was closed. (See The Present Truth article entitled "The Shut Door Explained" from Dec. 1849) This alone is probably not the "slam dunk" that proves EGW a false prophet. That she was nutty, maybe. But taken with everything else, it's a solid piece of evidence. If you read much of the stuff they were publishing from 1840 ya just shake your head. I would hope most of us would have rejected this group of fanatics who taught that all the other churches were fallen Babylon that God had rejected. That, of course, would gain us their contemnation as the "evil servant" of Matthew 24. Oh well... | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 951 Registered: 4-2000 |
Diana, Actually, Ellen White's views against normal sexual activity made her look real good in her day. However, the anti-masturbation and anti-marital sex social movements were short-lived in Victorian America. Now her radical sex books prove that she was not a prophetess from God. By the way, here is my favorite quote from Ellen White on masturbation: "Such are just as surely self-murderers as though they pointed a pistol to their own breast, and destroyed their life instantly." (taken from AN APPEAL TO MOTHERS) According to Ellen White, masturbation was not only sinful and unhealthful, but it was actually a "crime." Dennis Fischer | ||
| Rejoyce719 Registered user Username: Rejoyce719 Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2007 |
So true Dennis. She was so dramatic with her false statements. Also, Flyinglady, I read many years ago the statement about slaves, that they would "mercifully not be raised again" and was shocked even then when I believed every word EGW said. I can remember thinking that surely the slave with such a terrible life is not going to simply be forgotten by God. I began questioning in my own mind as I came across some of these outrageous statements, but still felt that there must be some explanation. Now I know there is no explanation other than EGW was not a prophet or messenger of God. U2 I have ministers in my family and often wonder if they know about the "shut door" from seminary. If so, how they can remain SDA ministers. | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 70 Registered: 10-2006 |
Rejoyce719, How can SDA ministers remain? Money, benefits, and in too many cases, conference-control over their retirement, including encouragement to get their pastors to sign a waiver for Social Security, putting their wages in conference hands. Oh yeah, one other reason. Just pure laziness and/or fear of standing up to authority figures in the church. Steve | ||
| Rejoyce719 Registered user Username: Rejoyce719 Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2007 |
Thanks for your insight Stevendi. I am sure you are right. It must be a terrible feeling to live a lie. |
