| Author | Message | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 422 Registered: 11-2004 |
I read somewhere lately that in the last 10 years there has been a move away from the do's and don'ts of the Sabbath to more to just keeping the spirit of the Sabbath. Has anyone witnessed this change? I have noticed some of that in my own family. I had thought they were just doing things more liberally around me to show me that the Sabbath isn't a burden. Well, I guess the do's and don'ts are still there but the subjective interpretation of what is okay to do has changed. For instance, someone in my family may go window shopping online or in an actual store on the Sabbath, but not actually buy something. Someone may not actually watch a sports game on tv, but they have no problem watching the ticker or every moment of the game online. To me this smacks of hypocrasy since my denial of the Sabbath made them concerned about my salvation. I should mention that the examples I mentioned are of people who are church leaders. I've been out of the church for 8+ years now so I don't remember things being like that when I was still an Adventist. When I am around them on Sabbath I sure don't know what is okay or not okay to do anymore so I just follow their lead and I am often VERY surprised at what they will do now. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5248 Registered: 12-2003  |
U2óthe attitude you describe is very prevalent in our area of Southern California. The Sabbath is non-negotiableóat least in terms of idealizing itóbut Sabbath behaviors are completely subjective. It seems that as long as one "honors" the IDEA of sacred time/day and "thinks" about the day as special, different, a day for only pleasurable things instead of drudgery and demands, then they are honoring the spirit of the Sabbath, and they are within the realm of Sabbath-keeping. It's an attitude born out of the impossibility of keeping the day being amalgamated (gotta love that word!) with the deep fear that just perhaps it IS one of God's requirements. It's more than schizy. If it IS one of God's requirements, then it must be observed as He wishes. Yet the lack of direction for the day in the NT creates cognitive dissonance. It is almost a never-never-land of confusion, fear, and satisfaction at "having the Sabbath". Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 675 Registered: 10-2002  |
Colleen, what you said is awfully familiar but not so much in a Christian context --- rather, it is something common in Japan with ancestor worship, emperor-worship, Shinto & Buddhism. At times of government oppression in the past, the state got more controlling with specifics, but generally it's socially unacceptable to *completely* disregard some of the basic things like ancestor worship. But if you do it a little different, it's not so bad. It's a little more flexible, I think. The main thing is that you *DO* something. Casting it off is unacceptable. I don't think Adventists consciously realize it, but there may be a spirit of idolatry behind this with the "Sabbath day". It demands some kind of acknowledged reverence (worship), although it is not picky about particulars. In the Bible, however, when God had commanded worship (of *HIM*) on specific days, months, or years, He laid things out very specifically. It was specific because ceremonial purity was essential (essential for representing the *shadows* properly!). I know Adventists may look at this Sabbath-day-flexibility as obeying the "spirit of the Law", and to that rationale I don't know what to reply... except John 4 & Colossians 2. And to pray, above all. | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 106 Registered: 7-2000 |
"I don't think Adventists consciously realize it, but there may be a spirit of idolatry behind this with the "Sabbath day". It demands some kind of acknowledged reverence (worship), although it is not picky about particulars." Well said, Ramone. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 356 Registered: 9-2006  |
I can just see Moses now appearing on the scene of today ìThat is your attempt at keeping the Sabbath?î he would probably laugh so hard he would fall off his donkey. Amalgamated, now there you go again Colleen with them big words, bout the time I am getting cognitive dissonance down but it does sort of describe Adventism, it is an amalgamation of something and it makes my amalgamation of cognitive dissonance to go into convulsive synthesis which causes disjointing of the molecular structure of my saliva glands to permeate me which causes me to become cross eyed and begin to drool excessively. It's more than schizy? Almost a never-never-land of confusion, fear, and satisfaction? ìAlmostî might be a little understated there Colleen. U2, if you try to follow their lead, I dare say you might find yourself at the feet of your own donkey. Yeh, I know I need help. River | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 423 Registered: 11-2004 |
When it comes right down to it I must admit that the Sabbath-keeping of Adventism is worshiping a day. If one rejects the day they are considered lost, but as long as one considers the day holy they are okay. It doesn't actually matter how I kept the Sabbath, but just that I believed in the Sabbath. I do get frustrated quite often when I am around my family during Sabbath. I'm happy that we are not all sitting around discussing EGW (I wouldn't be around them if that was the case), but it is difficult to see them treat Sabbath-keeping so flippantly when my rejection of the Sabbath put me in the lost category. I may spend Friday night to Saturday night doing more Sabbathy things and going to my church, yet that doesn't matter because I no longer believe their version of Sabbath rest. I DO still keep the Sabbath. Now my Sabbath keeping is resting in His complete work in me. And that rest is now 24/7!! Praise God!!! | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 384 Registered: 6-2006  |
Who recently said "Jesus is your Sabbath!"? Was that you, U2? I just love that and will remember that if I get confronted with the "lost" issue. (Thankfully my SDA family hasn't confronted me in a long while -they probably think it's no use!) I agree that Sabbath enforcement/keeping is a way worshipping the day as well. If you asked the question "Could you give up Sabbath? Would you give it up for Jesus? (Worshipping him on another or other days)" how would the average SDA answer that? Is the Sabbath equal to or as important to Jesus? I think it would be really difficult for an SDA to answer, especially if they have the contstant tape of EGW playing in their heads. Leigh Anne | ||
| Godssonjp Registered user Username: Godssonjp Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2007 |
I've talked with friends still in the church who aren't sure if Sabbath keeping is a requirement for salvation. However, they still keep it "just in case". They'd rather be safe than sorry. Amamzing. They don't even keep the Sabbath out of obedience. Rather, they keep it to be "safe". | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 781 Registered: 8-2004  |
Godssonjp wrote, "They keep it to be "safe"." Are they forgetting (or are they ignorant) that "Whatever is not of faith is sin"? I'm so glad ours is a redeeming God! When I first grasped that WHATEVER is not of faith is sin, I suddenly realized that a lot of my life that I'd thought was 'alright' and 'just normal living' was not living by faith, and therefore was sin. This drove me to my Savior - for there's no way to 'manufacture' faith - and what an awesome, sometimes terrifying, freeing, and blessed journey He's taken me on since! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 331 Registered: 6-2001  |
I remember discussing this point with someone, and they said in the NT, the spirit of the law is emphasized over the letter of the law, so they felt comfortable not keeping some of the specific details of the Sabbath. I pointed out, that where the spirit of the law was emphasized, it was emphasized as something that was in addition to the letter of the law. i.e. Matt. 5. Don't just not commit adultry, don't look at women lustfully either. Scripturally, Hannah | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 357 Registered: 9-2006 |
I was always the self sufficient sort until the day I finally realized that I could not save myself, nothing I could do, and I think that that might have been the day I finished my journey to the cross to lay prostate, exhausted from the struggle and that was when I really began to know a little of the love of God. I think as long as we feel that there is something we can do to save ourselves it keeps us from knowing the savior in a special more personal way. Only when we get self out of the way do begin to see him. Adventist doesnít hold the corner on that but they sure got a big chunk roped off for themselves the way I see it. River | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 158 Registered: 7-2004 |
I think the idea of watching the game online or window shopping online is like the old "you can wade your feet in the water, but not swim". Water is not "bad" just the enjoyment of swimming in it on Sabbath. Just as the internet can be whatever you want it to be, and is not bad to be online, but are you doing Sabbathy things? It's just that life is much more complex now and Ellen somehow didn't have the foresight to see what her adventist people would be facing in this century, so she didn't get to advise on internet etc. (isn't that strange that she couldn't see that far ahead?) Soooooooooo......I think that the really historic adventists feel that all these liberal adventists are all going to hell! Several years ago one of them told me the adventist church's probation had closed and it was apostate. If I were still one, I would be happy to see them being "normal" because the historic adventists really made me nauseous. I never was able to put a loving God with all the junk Ellen dealt to me and that I had to listen to! | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 424 Registered: 11-2004 |
Maybe my walk was unusual, but I didn't have many dealings with historic Adventists. Most of the Adventists I knew were more liberal and I lived in several places in the US. I am only now learning about the beginnings of Adventistism and things like Canright and the Damon trial. Hannah, you made a good point. When Jesus talked about the spirit of the law it was in addition to the letter of the law. I am very grateful that I can be around my Adventist family on the Sabbath and the day can pretty much look like my normal day. Some things do cross the line for them though. If I turned on the tv Friday night to a non-Christian station my family will scatter quickly!! So, I do not wish to offend when I am around them on the Sabbath, and find in doing so that I end up "keeping" the Sabbath better then they do  | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 358 Registered: 9-2006 |
A friend of mine recently had wanted his carpenter/daughter to measure for some cabinets, they were too busy on Friday to take measurements so she called and said ìDad, I will come over in the morning to measureî but he decided not to let her even though she lives about 250 wiles away and was leaving. What sounds like too me to be the misery of all that, is too how to decide what is legal and whatís not, now that would drive me plumb crazy. Now before somebody says it, I know I ainít got far too go. Now I try not too work on Sunday, but then I try not too do too much during the week either just to be on the safe side. My wife says to me ìWhen are you going too do such and such?î and then she says ìI know, one of these daysî. I was listening to a song on CD, it goes something like this ìHow can I get excited when I got leavin on my mind.î | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 48 Registered: 10-2006 |
After 50 years of adventism including 12+ years of adventist school (hell on earth), I've never, ever seen an official rule book on sabbath-keeping. I've never met any two adventists who had the same understandings about sabbath-keeping. I did get into it once with a sda pastor who I played Frisbee with on Saturday at his house, which even included getting the ladder out of the garage and climbing on the roof to retreive the Frisbee - more than once. A week later, when I suggested having volleyball games Saturday afternoon at the church before sundown worship, the whole church turned on me like a bad case of leprosy (especially when I retorted that I played Frisbee at pastor's house). By the way, the purpose of my suggestion was for those who wanted to invite friends and neighbors who weren't members of the church. What a sick, stupid, anti-Bible, nongospel bunch of chicken dung. This kind of stuff disgusted Jesus and it disgusts me for His sake. The problem with this kind of legalistic nonsense is nothing is ever good enough for those who profess it. In order to keep the 4th commandment to their satisfaction, you would have to break the first three! Galatians 1-5: What! Have you lost your minds? After discovering God's love in His Son Jesus Christ, you are ready to return to your salt mines of fleshly works to prove yourselves acceptable to God, and better than anyone else? The Gospel according to Steve. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 359 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well, I've never heard it explained just like that but that about covers it. If you ever run across one of those official rule books be sure to cop me one, I would sure like to get a look at it. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3290 Registered: 3-2004  |
It has been about 3 years since I associated with SDAs. That was here in Las Vegas. On Sabbath they thought nothing of going to a restaurant to eat and pay for it that day. We drove quite a distance to go to the Valley of Fire on sabbath after church and eating out. I was mildly surprised, but was not judgemental, because I made no semblance of keeping the sabbath myself other than going to SS and church services. I do not know how many of the SS class read only the NT the year of 2004 like I did. I pray some of them did and have the cognitive dissonance that will cause them to question the SDA doctrine and then study it for themselves. God had used my 12 step program to de program me and I did not realize that until after it happened. Thank you God. You are AWESOME. Diana | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 494 Registered: 5-2002 |
Don't watch TV on Sabbath. Use the internet ticker... Don't watch a movie in a theater. Buy the DVD and watch it on your HOME theater... Don't cook or wash dishes on Sabbath. Let the heathens in the restaurant do it for you... Don't eat bacon. Eat a soy-based extrusion manufactured to look as much like it as possible... Don't gamble on the stock market. Double down your tithe and God pays off at 7 to 1... Don't watch a sporting event live during Sabbath hours. TiVo it and watch after sunset... Don't eat pork. Eat a veggie wrap using a tortilla with lard in it... Don't eat much sugar. Unless it's a Little Debbie snack cake... Don't disobey the health message. Except butter, eggs, cheese, and clean meat... The more things change, the more they stay the same. Pass the cognitive dissonance please! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5254 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ha! You made me laugh, Freeatlast! Hannah, I love your comment that the spirit of the law was IN ADDITION to the letter of the law. I'd never thought of it that way before. You're totally right! It strikes me that the lack of Sabbath "rules" (everyone's supposed to understand what to do with the day...) underscores Adventism's idolotry of the day (good point, U2). Adventists have plenty of health rules that are easy to define. They don't, however, have any concrete suggestions for "how to worship God". You know, everyone's just supposed to KNOW what it means to "worship God". It's an ATTITUDE, a certain "reverence", an awe of "nature", etc. There are no rules for itóbut neither is there an real understanding of Who God really is or why He should be worshiped, feared, reverenced, etc. (Admittedly, some Adventists have more of an idea than others about why they should worship God, but it is really a very nebulous idea for most.) They treat Sabbath exactly the same way that they treat God. Everyone KNOWS how they're supposed to "think" about Sabbath. Everyone knows it's "holy" (nothing else besides God is holy). Everyone knows it's to be "acknowledged" and "special" and "reverenced", etc. The way Advetism treats the Sabbath, it's almost a fourth member of the Godhead. It's eternal, holy, worthy of honor and reverence, and one's life is to be lived in anticipation of it. You know the adage, "It's what you DO, not what you SAY, that shows what you really think and value"? Well, that adage describes Adventism's attitude toward Sabbath, I believe. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 949 Registered: 4-2000  |
SABBATH RULES You can download about 30 pages of Sabbath rules from www.adventist.org, the official SDA Church website. Dennis Fischer |
