| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3352 Registered: 3-2004  |
http://bible-truths.com/ My pastor very seldom talks about tithing, but the sermon tonight really brought back all I had heard and learned in adventism. When I got home I did internet research and found this article. It give the history of tithing, how the CoI tithed and what Malachi is really about when the whole book is read. Please read it and let me know what you think. The pastor did not say we had to tithe, but this is how the CoI did it and God blessed them when they tithed. He also emphasized that God loves a cheerful giver, but he said enough about tithing that it brought back all those old feelings of I am robbing God and I know I am not. Diana | ||
| Bobalou Registered user Username: Bobalou Post Number: 42 Registered: 2-2005 |
Hi Diana, the tithe system is just as much OC as Sabbath observance. Both ended at Calvary. Another thing, tithe was never paid in shekels. It was always paid in grain, fruit and animals. This meant that only those who raised these things were part of the tithe system. The tent maker, shoe cobbler etc. never paid tithe. SDAs and others that teach tithing money are wrong in doing so. I believe that it is extraction especially from the poor. I for one am very much against churches that insist on their members return a tenth. Now I will go back to lurking. Take care and keep up the good work on CARM. otB | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 480 Registered: 4-2006  |
The best I've read on tithing is the book "Should the church teach tithing by Russel Earl Kelly, Ph.D." Available online: http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing The website you refer to above seems to be some offshoot of Jehovas Witnesses. They for example deny Hell and teach soul sleep. And furthermore denies the Trinity. I guess that site probably is full of many more heresies. In Jesus, Martin | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 409 Registered: 9-2006  |
Dianna, My church teaches tithing also, so do most of the rest, I would probably say though that I have to go along with Bobalou in what he says up there. I really donít have a problem with tithing if done for the right purpose which I think the purpose is to return a tenth of what God has blessed one with. I even ìtitheî a tenth to the Lord but I donít stop there either so my purpose ends up being that I try to give heavily into the Lords work. Now one might call it ìTithingî or one might call it ìgivingî or ìOfferingî but it take dollars to run a church ìgroupî I donít have a problem with a church group that believes in ìTithingî although I do have a problem with a church insisting on it. Of course as you know I have never experienced being in a place like that, the reason I responded to this is just to state my own personal opinion. Sometimes I think folks get all caught up with wording. I just wish I had more to give than what I actually have, my giving gets stretched at times because the needs are so great. By the time I write a check for this and that and the other, my gifts to a particular need seems so small I am ashamed of it, and sometimes when I write those checks I cringe at it I suppose thatís because I am not a very big supporter of the malls either. I can pass up a sale without even looking, every time I see a sale sign I snort and move on. My little wife, bless her pea pickin heart canít pass up a sale. But Dianna I would think giving should be from the heart then you can tack the word on it that you can live with. IMO. Your Pastor sounds like a good man and it doesnít sound to me like he is teaching forced tithing at all. You just got a tender spot left over from Adventism. IMO. We shall overcome. Martin, I tried the link but it didnít work for me. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 410 Registered: 9-2006 |
P.S. Martin is right, the link you found is JW. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 403 Registered: 6-2006  |
I like this question and answer about tithing by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum on www.ariel.org *** Q. I have been taught that it is our duty to give precisely one tenth of our gross income to the church. Under this teaching not doing so is thought to be robbing God of what is His. What are your views on tithing? A. Concerning your question on tithing, what you have been told is a good example of what happens when people pull certain verses out of context and then misapply what they have pulled out of context. First of all, the actual Mosaic tithe was not 10 percent but 22-23 percent. That is because there were two annual tithes of 10 percent each and a third tithe every third year. The total averages out to 22-23 percent. Second, the tithing itself was aimed strictly at the farming community, which most Jews were a member of at that time. They had to tithe from what was grown and what was raised such as flocks. Anyone else outside the field of farming would simply pay the annual half shekel at Passover. Third, tithing was part of the Mosaic Law and therefore was only in force as long as the Mosaic Law was in force. The Mosaic Law came to an end when Messiah died on the cross. Fourth, the biblical principle for today's giving is not based upon tithing but based upon giving as the Lord has prospered. From week to week the percentile might be different depending on the obligations we might have. Fifth, the Bible nowhere says we are to give our entire offering (not tithe) to the local church. On the contrary, we are told that we should lay it in private deposit and strictly distribute our giving as necessary. The certain things we are required to support would include the local church, but that does not mean they get the entire amount of our offering. There are other ministries we are obligated to support such as whom we learn the Word from (Galatians 6), Jewish ministries (Romans 15:25-27), and others we give to as we are led to give. There is no need to feel guilty if somebody tries to get on your case for not tithing specifically to the church. The verses they use are verses that deal with the Mosaic Law. The storehouse was in the Temple Compound where the food was stored and not the church treasury. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 411 Registered: 9-2006 |
Now me being comical at times, it would be hilarious to drag in a 100 lb sack of spud and 5 bushels of wheat and toss it in the little bags they pass at my church. I donít imagine my sense of humor would be appreciated though. River  | ||
| Bobalou Registered user Username: Bobalou Post Number: 43 Registered: 2-2005 |
Yes, I said that I was going back to lurking, but this subject is one that rankles me. I wonder if churches using the tithing system in place of benevolent giving is because they don't have enough faith that their coffers will fill by allowing their members to give as they are blessed. Tithing was a tax imposed on a certain group of people under law. To use the tithing system in the Christian church is reverting back to being under the law and not allowing the believer to give out of pure love to the ministry of Christ. To place the burden of tithing on those who hardly have enough to live on is usury. It is no wonder that many get discouraged and quietly leave the church. Giving to church should be a blessing and not a hardship. River, I like your thought on bringing the sack of potatoes to church.  Better yet, when old Hootie the hog has a litter bring in a squealing piglet. It would be a great lesson for the leaders to ponder. I really wonder if they have been schooled in benevolence. Keep lookin up. boB | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3353 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, You are right. My pastor pushed some buttons in me and did not know it. I did talk to him a year ago about tithing when I gave him some books written by Ratzlaff, Martin and other former SDAs. I thought I had gotten over that hump about tithing, but apparently I haven't. He is preaching a series on money and God right now. And he is not advocating a forced tithing. The website I posted is JW. I looked for who put it up, but it was late and I could not find it fast. But, I liked what he said about tithing. That is the conclusion I had come to when I studied it myself. boB, thanks for reinforcing my conclusions. I really appreciate it. Diana | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 357 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hello Friends, This is an interesting topic, as I have always had questions on how and why the Adventist church required tithing and giving as they do. It is obvious that there is no Scriptural mandate for how they do it. I have always thought that it has been an ongoing way of trying to support the huge infrastructure that is Adventism. There are so many levels of administration that an inposed giving strategy is really required to support it all. For many Adventists, failure to give 10% + all the other offerings has and does creat a huge amount of guilt. The whole idea that we are robbing God had been so ingrained in our understanding, that it was really one more type of mind control and just another type of indoctrination that kept the guilt of not being good enough or doing good enough to really be acceptable to God. We were always told that those who gave what was required would some how receive a greater blessing than those that didn't. And those of us who had problems in our lives, subconsciously attributed it to the fact that we were not paying God what was due him, as determined by what we had been taught as Adventists. Since I have been attending a large Baptist church I have been amazed at the transparency in the offerings and the giving. Every week in the bulletin they list the weekly requirements of funds that are needed to keep the ministry going. And then they list the previous weeks offerings. This is a large church with 2000+ attending weekly. There are aprox 8 pastors and many staff. The plant itself is large and there is programing for all age groups occurring on a daily basis. There has never been a required giving amount, but the offering appeal is to specific ministries, and to the special projects, and needs of the church family. The weekly budget is $41,000 and rarely are the offerings less than that amount. There is no guilt involved, just giving from the heart and how God has blessed you. Last fall, a special appeal offering at Thanksgiving brought in an offerring of $297,000. This is a church on fire for God, and it shows by people's response to the Holy Spirit leading them in their giving. I suspect that if Adventism were to adopt this model of giving, as we see described in the New Testament, there would have to be major changes in the accountability of how funds were used and spent. My suspicion is that Adventism as we know it, could no longer be sustained, as people like to see accountability. Many are so conditioned to give to LLU, AU, Quiet Hour, FFT, VOP,etc. This is why the Adventist Review and all the Union Papers are largely devoted to reporting NUMBERS. It is to keep the money rolling in to support the infrastructure and the tens of thousands of retired SDA workers. It makes you wonder what actual percentage of offerings actually go to spreading the Good News of the Gospel. It is no wonder that many members question why they should be giving such large amounts, when they see so little results come from it. Okay, enough ramblings from me for today, | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3355 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tithing is the one thing that really pushes by buttons. I will explain why. I can only guess that others have similar stories. Right after my divorce, I made some bad decisions and ended up with part time jobs, supporting my son and myself. I did not pay tithe for two years. I remember praying about it and from somewhere in my brain I remembered something I had learned in school/church about God not blessing us if we did not pay tithe. Seeing as I had worked for the government for a number of years I took out my retirement and paid the back tithe. Well I am still paying for that as I do not have that money for retirement. God has taken care of me, but as I said, I do not have that retirement money, which I could use. I know God will take care of me as he has shown in the past. I quit paying tithe in about 1985, started paying it again after I moved here to NV and stopped in Dec 2003. Any lurkers out there reading this, go to the website in post 480 by Mwh. Read it and know that God does not guilt trip us into paying tithe. It is not a New Covenant teaching. It was only for the Children of Israel. DON'T DO WHAT I DID. God does not require that. I did not realize until last night that I was blaming God for a lot things which I did at a time when I did not know that God did not require it. God has taken care of me and will continue to do so. He promises to supply our needs and I believe him. He is always awesome. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 412 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well Bob, The sermons I have heard in tithing I really didnít pay that much attention to but it seems to be a convoluted sermon on Abraham and Melchisedec but if you look at Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. (Heb 7:5 KJV) And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: This seems to be what they base it on but it doesnít rankle me a whole lot. It probably ought to be hashed out by the churches and the wording straightened up if need be. I have just never studied the thing because I didnít feel I needed to put a whole lot thought into it. I just revert to the spuds and piglets and that is about as far as I can take it, I give because I love the Lord so if you want to call it anything call it love cash or some such I really donít care what they call it as long as they call me for dinner. Ha. Like you said, I really suppose it all started when they didnít have enough faith for God to supply the need so they felt they had to hit on the stingy person or some such. I am not going to hold my breath until my denomination rehashes it though. But then again I serve the Lord and not the denomination and give out of desire for his work to continue and the Holy Spirit leading. Now if I sound loose about doctrine in this area I am not, it just ainít high on my list is all. Keep yer chin up Dianna. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 413 Registered: 9-2006 |
Randy wrote: It makes you wonder what actual percentage of offerings actually go to spreading the Good News of the Gospel. I really can't see that they are spreading any Gospel of good news Randy at least not in my concept, tithes or no tithes. River | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 961 Registered: 4-2000  |
There NEVER was a monetary tithe in Israel. The tithing laws required ten percent of the increase from CROPS and ANIMALS only--salaries, commissions, and non-agricultural profits were exempt. Also, there never were three tithes as many misunderstand. It was only one tithe used differently in the different years of a sabbatical cycle of seven years. To find support for multipe levels of tithing, one must leave the Scriptures and consult the Apocrypha--notably the book of Tobit. Dennis Fischer | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 439 Registered: 11-2004 |
Are there certain church groups/denominations that teach against tithing? Just wondering if there are any independant type groups who are totally dependent on the local church for church expenses and salary needs who teach against tithing. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 415 Registered: 9-2006 |
Yes, how about u2ís question, I certainly donít know of any, the mainstream denominations I am familiar with teach it. If I get a chance I will ask my Pastor to explain the tithing principle to me from a scriptural view point. He is very good at what he does and with wording. If I get the chance to pin him down for 30 minutes I will post the results on the forum. Dianna, I can sympathize with you, that is quite a story and it has caused me to want to know why it is taught in the mainstream reformed churches. I copied your story and will save it. Thank you for your story, it has caused me to see why I should put this subject higher on my list of things to look into. You know just from a quick view point on your situation, if you gave in faith toward God, it does stand to reason, at least on the surface that God does look on our heart for faith in Christ Jesus in whatever we do and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him. I pray Godís richest blessing on you, may he quiet your heart and give you peace. River | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 710 Registered: 7-2004  |
The reason most churches teach tithing is because most churches don't fully understand that the New Covenant made the Old Covenant entirely obsolete. It seems nearly every church wants to pick and choose what is still applicable today from the Old Covenant (tithing, entire land will be blessed if country turns to God, etc). I see it as the main risk of retaining the Old Testament (not that I'm advocating getting rid of it). It's certainly beneficial to use it to understand God's plan, how it was fulfilled in Jesus, etc. - but it sure does confuse a lot of people by causing them to think the OT is speaking directly to them instead of the Children of Israel. Which brings up another thing that has been bugging me a lot lately. Why did God let the Christian church get so far off track? I think Paul would have a lot to say to almost every church today that would sound a lot like his Galatians stuff. I think Paul would have a problem with other gospel distortions prevalent in many churches today. Yet one would think maybe theology doesn't matter so much to God, because at the same time, God seems to be present and working through most if not all Christian churches in spite of their errors. If it mattered in Paul's time, why doesn't it matter now? | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 193 Registered: 1-2004  |
My current thought as to why God seems to be blessing people no matter what they believe is that God "causeth his sun to rise upon the good and upon the bad, and sendeth his rain upon the righteous and upon the unrighteous." In other words just because you see apparent success doesn't mean it's God's truth. Jeremiah | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 711 Registered: 7-2004 |
"Apparent success" can mean a lot of things, and I'm not necessarily talking about success. I mean people who seem to be in a genuine saving relationship with Jesus and God working through them to save others, regardless of how closely their theology matches Biblical truth. Of course we can't know for sure who is and who isn't in a saving relationship, but I can no longer buy into exclusivism as the SDA church taught. And yet I feel driven to exclusivism when I see so much gospel/grace error in many, many churches. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 712 Registered: 7-2004 |
Now I'm thinking out loud here, but U2's Perfection thread got me to consider another way to answer my own question. I guess God doesn't save anyone based on their theology any more than he saves anyone based on their behavior. Anyone can read the Bible and more or less (with the Holy Spirit's help) figure out what the truth is in regard to what our behavior should be and what our theology should be. However, God uses every single born again believer regardless of how perfect their theology or their behavior is. After all, Paul called "saints" believers with bad behavior problems and bad theology. Neither theology or behavior on this earth will completely match God's intentions until we see Him face to face. But I would assume it's still each Christian's job to exhort one another as Paul did, towards truth--especially in the "big" areas such as public sins and changed gospel / anti-grace teaching. |
