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Tkmommy
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As you may know, when I really began reseaerching my "cognitive dissonance" with adventist beliefs, I held only two doctrinal beliefs...the sabbath and state of the dead. That's really all that's kept me in the sda church, I've wanted to find a more "spirit filled church" on many aspects, but if you hold strong beliefs on sabbath and SOTD then it makes it a bit tough.

I've since read Sabbath in Christ and The Sabbath and The Lords DAy, which both were excellent and opened my eyes to new light. I had never thought any other way than sabbath being instituted at creation, and both books make excellent arguments for the sabbath being instituted on Sinai. Then I struggle because I like to read opposing arguments, such as my constant referral to Bacchiochi's Sabbath Under Crossfire. He does make good points for the Creation Sabbath, but what I have trouble with is the lengths to which he goes for his support. So many obscure, historical writings. I can say he's just twisting things around to support his belief, but then I wonder if I'm just not paying close enough attention or am not getting into the "details" as much as I should.

I know Colleen stated in another thread that SB is not considered a respected biblical scholar, and that is hard for metograsp coming from an sda background. Colleen, can you give me more info on him, and why biblically he does not match up?

I really don't want to get bogged down in details but at the same time I WILL be dealing with details with regards to my husband, who I do need to talk more with about all this. Tomorrow we have a bit of a drive to pick up our new car (YEAH!) and in the car is where we have some of our better discussions. In fact, our last long drive (christmas) the topic of creation sabbath came up, with him believing fully in it....with the usual view point of how God "rested" hallowed" "sanctified" the seventh day..you know, the typical sabbatarian response. I"d love for him to read the books as I have, but he is more interested in his own current books, so I have to present a good arguement to at least interest him.
Tkmommy
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh and I meant to ask for anyone's strong biblical viewpoints on why the sabbath was given at Sinai and not creation...although I suspect they are pretty much the same as the books ! :-)
Thanks
Brian3
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 3:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you want a non former adventist perspective Steve Lehrer has several chapters about the sabbath in his book on new covenanent theology http://www.ids.org/pdf/nctbook.pdf
Mwh
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 3:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One point on the sabbath issue.

"Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you." (KJV) Exodus 31:13

"Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant." Exodus 31:16

"And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God." Exodus 31:18

The sabbaths was given as the sign of the covenant given on mount Sinai. How could this sign be in function before the covenant was given?

If God instituted the sabbath at creation, many people would have been observing the sabbath, and what sign would it then be, how could this sign separate those in the covenant with those out of the covenant?

Just some thoughts.
Jeremy
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Tami,

Dale Ratzlaff does make same good points about Genesis, but I do disagree with his interpretation of Genesis 2:3.

Genesis 2:2-3 (NASB) says:


quote:

"By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made."




So, verse 3 tells us that God blessed and sanctified the seventh day, because He rested in it. That means that before He rested, the day was not blessed nor sanctified. So, that first seventh day was not blessed and it was not sanctified. It says "THEN God blessed the seventh day"--meaning, sometime after the first seventh day, God blessed and sanctified the seventh day. But it does not tell us when that happened. We must look at the rest of Scripture to find that out.

Genesis 2:3 is an anachronism, meaning it is describing an event which happened later on. In other words, God did not bless and sanctify the seventh day at Creation--He did so at a later time. Moses used anachronisms many times in his writings. One good example of this style of writing is found in Exodus 16:


quote:

"Moses said to Aaron, 'Take a jar and put an omerful of manna in it, and place it before the LORD to be kept throughout your generations.'
34As the LORD commanded Moses, so Aaron placed it before the Testimony, to be kept." (Exodus 16:33-34 NASB.)




This is obviously describing a later event, since in Exodus 16 the Testimony (the stone tablets) had not yet been given.

In a similar way, Genesis 2:3 is also an anachronism. We have to keep in mind that Genesis (along with the rest of the books of Moses) was written by Moses after God gave the Ten Commandments (literally in the Hebrew, "Ten Words"). Genesis 2:3 is basically a quotation of the words God spoke to Israel, which are recorded in Exodus 20:


quote:

"Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy." (Exodus 20:9-11 NASB.)




Notice that Genesis does not mention the word "Sabbath."

So, when did God bless the Sabbath day and make it holy/sanctify it? The Bible answers that question for us. The first mention of the Sabbath is in Exodus 16, where God first gives the Sabbath day to man (and He gives it only to the nation of Israel). Here is what the Bible says about when God gave the Sabbath and to whom He gave it:


quote:

"Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses,
23then he said to them, 'This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.'
24So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
25Moses said, 'Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
26'Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the sabbath, there will be none.'
27It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.
28Then the LORD said to Moses, 'How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?
29'See, the LORD has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.'
30So the people rested on the seventh day." (Exodus 16:22-30 NASB.)




It may be helpful to read the whole chapter of Exodus 16, but what we see is that God gave the Sabbath (to Israel only) in the Sinai wilderness after they crossed the Red Sea. Even in Exodus 20, God spoke the Ten Words to Israel:

"Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery." (Exodus 20:1-2 NASB.)

Here are some more passages which tell us when God gave the Sabbath and to whom He gave it:


quote:

"Then Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: 'Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I am speaking today in your hearing, that you may learn them and observe them carefully.
2'The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb.
3'The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today. [...]
15'You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day." (Deuteronomy 5:1-3, 15 NASB.)

"The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
13'But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You [Israel] shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you [Israel] throughout your [Israel's] generations, that you [Israel] may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you [Israel].
14'Therefore you [Israel] are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you [Israel]. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
15'For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.
16'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their [Israel's] generations as a perpetual covenant.'
17"It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.'
18When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God." (Exodus 31:12-18 NASB.)

"Then You came down on Mount Sinai,
And spoke with them from heaven;
You gave them just ordinances and true laws,
Good statutes and commandments.
14'So You made known to them Your holy sabbath,
And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law,
Through Your servant Moses.
15'You provided bread from heaven for them for their hunger,
You brought forth water from a rock for them for their thirst,
And You told them to enter in order to possess
The land which You swore to give them." (Nehemiah 9:13-15 NASB.)

"and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, 'On the day when I chose Israel and swore to the descendants of the house of Jacob and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, when I swore to them, saying, I am the LORD your God,
6on that day I swore to them, to bring them out from the land of Egypt into a land that I had selected for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands.
[...]
10'So I took them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.
11'I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live.
12'Also I gave them [Israel] My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
13"But the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness." (Ezekiel 20:5-6, 10-13a NASB.)




So, we see that the Bible is very clear that the Sabbath was given to Israel only, and that it was given to them after they came out of Egypt, crossed the Red Sea, and came into the wilderness. The Sabbath was a given as a sign between God and Israel, to "sanctify them" ("set them apart") from the Gentiles. Gentiles were not allowed to keep the Sabbath, or else it could not be a sign between God and Israel to set Israel apart from the Gentiles.

So, God blessed and sanctified the seventh day as a Sabbath for Israel, because it was on that day that He had "rested." The Hebrew word for Sabbath (which means "intermission") is not used at all in Genesis. It was not a Sabbath ("intermission"). The word for "rested" in Genesis 2 simply means "ceased." And it tells us what God rested/ceased from: "He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done." and "He rested from all His work which God had created and made." (Genesis 2:2b and 3b NASB.) In other words, God "ceased" creating the world on the seventh day. And He did not resume creating the world on the first day of the second week, or any other day. It was a finished, completed work (just like Christ's work for us on the Cross!). It was an eternal rest ("ceasing")--not a weekly "intermission" (Sabbath). God never ended His rest--He did not continue creating the world. (And John 5:16-18 says that God does not keep the Sabbath and that Jesus broke the Sabbath.)

Notice also that there is no command for man to keep the Sabbath in Genesis (the Sabbath is not even mentioned in Genesis!), and there is not even a command for man to "rest." And there is also no mention of Adam and Eve keeping the Sabbath (or anyone before Exodus 16, for that matter). There is not even any mention of Adam and Eve "resting" at all--it only says God rested. And neither Adam nor Eve could have rested as God did--ceased creating the world--because they didn't create it. But, of course, they were able to enter God's rest (see Hebrews 4), the finished work of their Creator, perpetually--until the Fall. And we can now enter into His rest again, through Jesus Christ and His finished work (again, see Hebrews 4).

There could not have been such a thing as a weekly "rest" for Adam and Eve, since before the Fall/the Curse there was no labor for them to rest from. They were in a state of perpetual rest, until the Fall.

One other point is that even if the Sabbath was instituted at Creation (which it clearly was not), it still would not be binding for us, because it was fulfilled in Christ. Even if it was instituted before the Fall, that does not make it eternal or mean that it will last forever. Marriage was instituted before the Fall, but Jesus said that there will be NO marriage in heaven. So marriage does not last forever just because it was instituted, and given to and commanded to Adam and Eve, before the Fall!

The following is a great link on the Sabbath, including a section on Creation, by a Christian Jew: http://www.ariel.org/mshabbat.html

So, in conclusion, the Bible says that the Sabbath was first given in the Sinai wilderness, and it nowhere says that it was given at Creation.

Jeremy

(Message edited by jeremy on January 25, 2007)
Brian3
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 8:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Gen 2:3 - And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it,.... A day in which he took delight and pleasure, having finished all his works, and resting from them, and looking over them as very good; and so he pronounced this day a good and happy day, and "sanctified" or appointed it in his mind to be a day separated from others, for holy service and worship; as it was with the Jews when they became a body of people, both civil and ecclesiastical: or this is all said by way of prolepsis or anticipation, as many things in this chapter are, many names of countries and rivers, by which being called in the times of Moses, are here given them, though they were not called by them so early, nor till many ages after: and according to Jarchi this passage respects future time, when God "blessed" this day with the manna, which descended on all the days of the week, an omer for a man, and on the sixth day double food; and he "sanctified" it with the manna which did not descend at all on that day: besides, these words may be read in a parenthesis, as containing an account of a fact that was done, not at the beginning of the world, and on the first seventh day of it; but of what had been done in the times of Moses, who wrote this, after the giving of the law of the sabbath; and this being given through his hands to the people of Israel, he takes this opportunity here to insert it, and very pertinently, seeing the reason why God then, in the times of Moses, blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it, was, because he had rested on that day from all his works, Exo_20:11 and the same reason is given here, taken plainly out of that law which he had delivered to them:" Gill Commentary
Colleentinker
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, thank you for that awesome explanation of Sabbath in Genesis.

You know, one observation that really impacted me during one of our Friday Bible studies was this: Genesis and the story of creation is in the part of the Bible known as The Law. The Torahóall five booksóare known as "the Law", and Jews and Christians both understand these five books to be books of Law.

While Genesis is clearly the book of beginningsóthe formation of the nations (chapters 1-11) and the nation of Israel (the rest of Genesis), still it is considered the first book of the law.

The coming of Jesus was first foreshadowed in the first chapters of Genesis. Jesus fulfilled the lawóall of it. He is the Creator, but He is also the One to whom all things pointed. Every single shadow of the Lawófrom Genesis to Deuteronomyóis fullfiled in Jesus.

Bacchiocchi's scholarship just doesn't square with the Bible if one studies it. His book on keeping the feast days today is clearly a position not even the Adventist Church would endorse. That is a book he wrote especially for the Worldwide Church of God adherents who kept the feast days as well as the Sabbath. He wrote it because he knew he could sell it.

Colleen
Tkmommy
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks so much guys. You know, I am so impressed that you all retain such vital information or you actually go look it up and type it for my little question. You just have to be some of the nicest, considerate people I've met on the web! :-)

Jeremy, thanks for bringing up the writing time issue with Genesis. H.M. Riggle brought this up early on in Sabbath and the Lords Day, and it slipped my mind. (I really need to go back and write notes on both books!) He stated that Moses wrote Genesis 2500 years after creation, so that must be taken into consideration as far as the context of the passage. I hadn't heard that before and it does make sense. I also like the passages in Duet., especially refering to the covenant made "not with our fathers"...I thin that is a slam dunk that sabbath was not instituted at creation. Unfortunately it also talks about a "perpetual covenant to be kept through all your generations" which is used by sabbatarians like my husband to say the sabbath still exists. I believe there is something regarding a "spiritual Israel" in their thinking that qualifies us as believers to be a part of therefore we would be part of those "generations". OK, that may sound weird, but I know we have discussed it before, I just can't quite come up with texts, but as some of you are formers, maybe you know what I am referring to? Can you tell it's almost 10pm? Sheesh my mind really starts drifting about then.

Colleen, interesting, you mentioned SB's book on Festivals. I believe my friend has that book. There seems to be a resurgence of interest on the "biblical holidays" in some sda circles. We did do a Passover seder last year with some church friends. It was educational, and the shadow that pointed to Christ was woven in, and many discussions were on Jesus, not OT topics. While interesting and spiritual, I don't know why anyone would feel the need to practice the OT festivals.....and interesting that SB would write a book on it. I wonder if he himself practices these or has friends that do. I'm guessing he has friends in the WCOG, as he was a major contributor to the Sabbath Sentinel...a sabbatarian publication representing all sabbath keeping churches. (we used to get it)

Anyway, just trying to clear my mind so I can speak clearly with my husband should a discussion arise tomorrow. I really want him to take an interest to this information. Please pray for us if you get a chance.

And , again, thanks so much for your time..you guys are great!
Tami:-)
Randyg
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tami,

Just a note of encouragement, I will pray that your husband will be kind and considerate as you share your thoughts. New thoughts in the area of religion can be threatening for some people.

I found Dale's book almost overwhelming as it covers a lot of territory and in such detail. It is very thorough and is an excellent reference.

If your husband is willing to read a shorter book, I would suggest Greg Taylor's book DISCOVERING THE NEW COVENANT. This book is very well done, and easy to read, and covers the Sabbath question very well. If that piques his interest, then the deeper studies of Ratzlaff's book might be more appealing.

I know the excitement of new discovery, and I also know that some of those closest to us can become very unsettled by our enthusiasm, as they have not been so moved in there search. Remember that God listens to our prayers. We can become impatient, but remember God is in control and we have to trust His timing, and His leading.

My prayers are with you both,

Randy
Windmotion
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Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are my quick thoughts. Has anyone (Adventist or not) ever decided what it means for God to rest? It seems to be an awfully human-like concept. This is why the word "ceasing" seems to be a much better interpretation. It also begs the question, Does God continue to rest on the Sabbath every week? If not, why not?

Sensibly,
Hannah
Helovesme2
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Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

:-) Yes Hannah, and where does it say God 'resumed'? Hebrews 4:3(last part) is very clear that "his work has been finished since the creation of the world." (NIV) or, as the Amplified Version has it, "[His] works had been completed and prepared [and waiting for all who would believe] from the foundation of the world."

(Message edited by helovesme2 on January 26, 2007)
Freeatlast
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Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"You just have to be some of the nicest, considerate people I've met on the web!"

Not bad, for folks who are "just bitter" ;>)
Jeremy
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Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tami,

Exodus 31:16 (KJV) reads:

"Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant."

But the Sabbath is not the only thing that is said to be "perpetual" in the old covenant. Here are some more examples:


quote:

"And thou shalt gird them with girdles, Aaron and his sons, and put the bonnets on them: and the priest's office shall be theirs for a perpetual statute: and thou shalt consecrate Aaron and his sons." (Exodus 29:9 KJV.)

"And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations." (Exodus 30:8 KJV.)

"And it shall be Aaron's and his sons'; and they shall eat it in the holy place: for it [is] most holy unto him of the offerings of the LORD made by fire by a perpetual statute." (Leviticus 24:9 KJV.)

"And it shall be a perpetual statute unto them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of separation shall be unclean until even." (Numbers 19:21 KJV.)

"And [this] shall be a statute for ever unto you: [that] in the seventh month, on the tenth [day] of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, [whether it be] one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
"For on that day shall [the priest] make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, [that] ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
"It [shall be] a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. [...]
"And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses." (Leviticus 16:29-31, 34 KJV.)




Perhaps you should ask your husband if the above things are still in effect, since they are said to be "perpetual," "throughout your generations," "for ever," and "everlasting." Notice that the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) Sabbath is to be observed "by a statute for ever." Yet most SDAs have never observed it in their life!

But all we have to do is look at the NT to see if the covenant from Sinai that God made with Israel after He led them out of Egypt, is still in effect.


quote:

"But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8For finding fault with them, He says,
'BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT
;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10'FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11'AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12'FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.'
13When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
1Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.
2For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.
3Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies,
4having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail." (Hebrews 8:6-9:5 NASB.)




So the Old Covenant is obsolete, as 2 Corinthians chapter 3 also tells us. And Galatians 4:30 commands us to "cast out" the old covenant from Sinai.

And if there is any doubt about what the covenant from Sinai was, Deuteronomy 4:13 (along with a handful of other passages) tells us that the covenant was, specifically, the Ten Commandments:


quote:

"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." (Deuteronomy 4:13 NASB.)




All of the "perpetual statutes" of the Law have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. In fact, He has fulfilled the entire Law!

Jeremy

(Message edited by jeremy on January 26, 2007)
Grace_alone
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Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, you really have a gift. I really appreciate how simply you explain things. I learn something new every time I read your posts!

:-) You're swell.

Leigh Anne
Stevendi
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Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

You are so right. I heard this guy speak once. I tried to ask him a question on the way to his table. He said he didn't have time, he had to sell his books. Man, he was all over taking in that money! The only people he would talk with were those with cash in their hand. Not judging, I'm just sayin'.....

steve
Stevendi
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Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 3:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not sure how this fits in, but a verse that has intrigued me lately is Gen. 4:26. "It was during his (Enosh) lifetime that people first began to worship the Lord." I did some quick math and concluded that it was more than 235 years after banishment from Eden that people began to worship, whatever that means. I would be interested in anyone's thoughts on this verse. For me, it seems to support the idea that there was no sabbath rest day before Sinai.

Steve
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Post Number: 719
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 8:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In looking Genesis 4:26 up in several versions through biblegateway.com, I see that most of the real translations say "men began to call upon the name of the Lord." The paraphrases are more likely to say "began to worship the Lord." I have no clue what it really means - is "calling upon the Lord" and "worshiping the Lord" the same thing? I was more familiar with the "calling upon the Lord" reading and so I was surprised to see "worship". I guess I always pictured it to mean invoking God for things, more like in an impatient or frustrated way as the world became more trouble to live in, rather than worshiping. But then, maybe my perspective is skewed.

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