| Author | Message | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 452 Registered: 11-2004 |
Who do you believe the new covenant is between? I've heard some say that the new covenant is between God and humankind. I've heard others say that the new covenant is between the Father and Son and the only way to access the new covenant is through Jesus. Any comments? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1690 Registered: 10-2004  |
Well, Hebrews 8 (quoting Jeremiah 31) says:
So, according to this text, God made the new covenant with the house of Israel. And Ephesians 2 adds:
Also, Galatians 3 says:
So when a covenant is based on a promise by God, there is only one party involved in the fulfillment of that covenant--since God is only one. Jeremy | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 496 Registered: 4-2006  |
Maybe the CD's available here free of charge can cast some light in this matter: http://www.sendingthelight.com/books.html | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3376 Registered: 3-2004  |
Mwh, Thank you for the website above. I have printed articles from it so I can read them without turning the computer on and then I can write and mark then. Diana | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 92 Registered: 1-2006  |
MWH Thank you for sharing the sendingthelight.com site. I bought these books a couple years ago. The author is Sam Pestes, who left the SDA ministry because he could not in good conscience preach adventist doctrines. These three books were very helpful in helping me move beyond Sinai based theology and to better understand the new covenant. I highly recommend them. They are very clear and helpful, especially for those transitioning out of adventism, because Sam grew up adventist and has "been there, done that." Sam also has a series of audio CDs entitled The Stone-Cutters Bride, a series of six or seven CDs on the covenants. I've listened to the entire series of CDs several times during the last few years, usually in the car. It would be hard to overstate how helpful these were to me. Bob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5333 Registered: 12-2003  |
U2bsda, just as God made His covenant with Abraham without Abraham's participationóand God in the forms of a smoking pot and blazing furnace moved among the pieces of the sacrificial animalsóso God made the New Covenant with humanity when Jesus, as a human representing all humanity, became sin for us and took God's wrath instead of us. Thus, when we are in Christ, we are reunited with God by the indwelling Holy Spirit, and we enter and experience the new covenant. Only JesusóGod in human fleshócould have been perfectly righteous in order to meet God's requirements, and only He could have taken responsibility for sin, since He, as Creator, was responsible for us fallen creations. The texts Jeremy used above sum it up: The covenant is between God and His people, but we His people are only able to participate in it when we are hidden in Christ, the only human who could have met God's righteous requirements in every way. Our Representative, our Head of the human race, fulfilled the covenant on our behalf and now asks us to become one with Him so we, too, can participate in its blessings and intimacy with God. It's amazing. Colleen | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 369 Registered: 5-2004 |
I also like this text: Isa 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it, Isa 42:6 "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, Isa 42:7 To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 454 Registered: 11-2004 |
Colleen, Regarding Abraham's participation - What significance do you feel the almost sacrifice of Isaac played in terms of God sacrifing His Son? It is my understanding that is was important when making the covenant was for God to find someone willing to give his son as that is what He was going to do. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 450 Registered: 9-2006  |
My opinion is that God knew already what Abraham was going to do, the question is did Abraham know what Abraham would do until it came right down to the wire. God tested Abraham, not so God could find out his faith but so Abraham could find his faith, many time we are tested in some manner so that we can find our resolve to follow, no matter what, I have no doubt that many of you folks have found your faith through hard testing, in fact more than many of us 4x4 evangelicals. It was never remotely possible for Isaac to be sacrificed for the sins of the world, but we live from faith to faith following in Abraham's foot steps and so we are his seed if so we be in the faith. Faith is the part played in the almost sacrifice, Abraham said God would furnish the sacrifice and so he did just as Abraham believed. the covenant was through faith and our covenant rest on our faith. not the IJ way, not earning the way but the true just shall, not maybe, shall live by FAITH. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3387 Registered: 3-2004 |
"God tested Abraham, not so God could find out his faith but so Abraham could find his faith..." I do not know how many times I read the faith chapter in Hebrews, but never saw that. Abraham had to know and find his faith. An AHHHH moment. Thanks River. We truly do have an awesome God. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5336 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, that is a great analysis. U2bsda, God didn't have to find someone willing to sacrifice his son. There is no such person. God chose to foreshadow His own provision for humanity through his rescue of both Isaac and Abraham. Abaraham's faith was accounted as righteousness in Genesis 15, long before there was an Isaac. His willingness to sacrifice Isaac was not related to his being a man "would trust". The point is not that God found a man who would trust Himóbut that God CREATED a man who would trust Him. Romans 4 discusses Abraham as a the model of one who believes in God. Verses 16-17 say, "For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be gauaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law [Jews], but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham [believing Gentiles], who is the father of us all, (as it is written, 'A father of many nations have I made you') in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist." Then verse 18 says, "In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "so shall your descendants be." In other words, God called Abraham's faith and his paternity and his faithfulness into beingóthe Creator of all created Abraham the patriarch. God gave Abraham the ability to trust Him; He created Isaac out of the union of two old people who not only were barren together but the wife was past childbearing age. The point is that Abraham prefigured what God would do in all His childrenóHe would bring us to life, give us faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), give us His work to do (Eph 2:10), and make of us something that did not exist previouslyónew creations birthed by the Holy Spirit. God took an ordinary moon worshiper and turned him into a patriarchóthe father of many nations. God didn't need Abraham to be willing to scarifice his sonóGod willed that Abraham would sacrifice his son, and he nurtured faith in Abraham that made it possible for him to trust God even when he could not see the outcomes of God's commands. Further, God always planned that He would send the ram to replace IsaacóGod demonstrated early on His divine provision as well as His sovereignty over the things He asks us to do. He is in controlóand He completes what He begins in us. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 451 Registered: 9-2006 |
what a beautiful picture in the story of Abraham and Isaac of the Christ to come. God declares that he will furnish the sacrifice, not man. In Genesis God cloths Adam and Eve in skins of innocent animals. Shadows of thing to come. In the new God cloths us with the righteousness of his innocent Son. Looking back from the view of the cross we can see Gods plan from the very beginning. But it's quite amazing to me how the study of the old and new covenants are so important to you folks, having been raised on it so to speak, we 4x4's will hardly ever hear a sermon on the subject, we do not take it for granted but I suppose it is taken for granted one would be aware of it which may not be the case. It probably should be discussed more in the Evangelical churches. In Matthew 26:28 of the NKJV it reads; for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. I had a chart somewhere that charts the accuracy or closeness to original language of the various versions of Bibles and the NKJV is charted as being closer than the KJV, I use the NKJV as a study Bible and KJV as a research Bible and then Zondervan Amplified Bible for clarity. I just had the thought that when I get the chance to say something useful to my Adventist friends, the new covenant might just be the tool I am looking for in addition to my usual tool which is that we may know that we have eternal life. I will have to study and meditate on the subject and pay more attention to what is said about it on the forum. Now in Zondervan Amplified Bible Mat. 26:28 reads; For this is my blood of the new covenant, which [ratifies the agreement and] is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. [Exod. 24:6-8] Exod. 24: 6 And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, half the blood he dashed against the alter. 7: Then he took the book of the covenant and read in the hearing of the people; and they said, All that the Lord has said we will do, and we will be obedient. 8: And Moses took the [remaining half of the] blood and sprinkled it on the people and said, behold the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words. [1Cor, 11:25; Heb 8:6; 10:28,29] ZA Bible. So by his shed blood we gentiles are able to be grafted in, the wall of partition was rent from top to bottom, so when God let down the sheet and told peter ìKill and eatî he was not talking about the health practices of foods, he was speaking of the gentiles. Sorry U2 I guess I got a little off course there but it did seem important, please forgive if it irked you in any way. On second thought it probably does tie in with your subject. Our Abrahamic type faith is by, in and through the shed blood of the Lamb, Christ Jesus. Without Gods furnished sacrifice there wouldnít be an Abrahamic faith and we would probably be busy muttering and whittling our own Godís do you think? River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5340 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, the new covenant is, indeed, the thing to address with Adventists. They really don't know about the new covenant. They've heard the words, but they believe that there really is only one covenant. They believe that the new covenant will not be implemented until the Second Coming when we receive our glorified bodies. Adventists have absolutely no concept of Jesus fulfilling all of the law and of our not being bound to the commandments as part of our righteousness. You might find the articles here helpful: http://rtinker.powweb.com/Proclamation2001_JulAug.pdf In this issue of Proclamation Dale published an Adventists' understanding of the covenants, then he himself wrote an article showing that the new covenant is a completely new administration from the old. And to be sure, the new is a fulfillment of the promises of the Abrahamaic covenant. I think you might get a better sense of where the Adventists are coming from after reading through that issue of Proclamation. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 683 Registered: 10-2002  |
"God tested Abraham, not so God could find out his faith but so Abraham could find his faith..." ...and so that Abraham could know the heart of the Father who gave up His only Son. |
