| Author |
Message |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 627
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 3:05 am: |     |
My sister in law had an abortion about 25 years ago,
she has lived with that ever since.
My wife has worked almost her whole adult life in the diffrent wards in the hospitals and seen the helpless fetus yanked from the mother's womb and discarded as garbage, worked in maturnity wards,given birth to five children herself.
I ask her about the abortion question one day and I will never need to ask the question again.
River |
Aliza
Registered user
Username: Aliza
Post Number: 163
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 9:13 pm: | |
I, too, believed as many of you did while SDA. However, I vividly remember when my reality changed. I asked myself if there was any time while Mary was pregnant that Jesus was not truly a person. That was the turning point, even before I understood the spirit issue.
Aliza |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5610
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 9:17 pm: | |
Wow, Alizaóthat is an amazing insight. Great questionóthank you for sharing it.
Colleen |
Ikilgore
Registered user
Username: Ikilgore
Post Number: 33
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 10:47 pm: | |
Aloha Guys,
This was a pretty dark topic for the old discussion boards. Let's just get one thing straight: ABORTION IS WRONG! I am a firm believer that if you are a Christian than you should be pro-life. Just that simple. Adventist or not, there should be no way around it. I used to be pro-choice, but I have been moved away from that belief for several years now. I thank God for that change in beliefs. That's all I really have to say about that...
Isaiah |
Doug222
Registered user
Username: Doug222
Post Number: 522
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 11:15 pm: | |
Colleen,
Thanks for the recap. I had gathered most of what you just shared form your earlier post and it was very enlightening. I guess what I'm not clear on is how you connect it specifically to the abortion issue. I know that you said that you didn't "get it" until you understood that we actually have a spirit. I have seen you speak very strongly about your views on abortion now and how distasteful you find the Adventist position. I guess that is what I was trying to understand.
Doug |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5611
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 11:32 pm: | |
I'm sorry, Doug, that I didn't clarify. What has changed for me is understanding that an early-stage, unborn child is actually a person designed by God, not a fluke or social accident. Since the Psalms say that God knows all our days before one of them came to be, that He formed us and knew us before we were born, then I have to believe that life is His to administer.
Understanding that even an early-stage pregnancy is not merely "tissue" but has a personal spirit that can know and be known by God puts that fetus in a completely different category than an animal has changed everything for me. Actually, it's hard for me to explainóI've actually asked myself how my belief in a human spirit has had such a profound effect on my attitude. All I can say is that I have come to see God as truly sovereign, and since His sovereignty means that my response to Him is to be one of trust and submission (not passivity, by the way), then in all circumstancesóeven in the case of an unwanted pregnancyómy response must be the same: trust and submission.
I guess my reaction is influenced both by the realization of the spirit and also by my coming to see God as truly sovereign.
I believe (this is my "hunch" now, not based on actual research but on having lived in Adventist dorms and functioned in Adventist society) that abortion is accepted within Adventism partly as a means to conceal the high incidence of inappropriate sexual activity that seems often to flourish just under the surface in Adventism. It's a closed community, in many ways, and it's hard to be anonymous. If an unmarried girl or woman becomes pregnant, it's not only hard to hide, but it's hard to hide the father's identity AND the parents' identities. Prgnancy could cast quite a long shadow on the stellar images of many pastors', doctors', and teachers' families.
But abortion sets us up as our own "god" over life.
Colleen |
Wolfgang
Registered user
Username: Wolfgang
Post Number: 138
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 9:00 am: | |
a few years back a teacher was fired in Berrin Springs because she got pregnant before she was married,had she have had an abortion she probably would have kept her job. |
Doug222
Registered user
Username: Doug222
Post Number: 525
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 9:07 am: | |
Thanks for the clarification Colleen. Do you have similar views as it relates to capital punishment? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5613
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 9:45 am: | |
Again, I want to clarify that I will not take a stand against someone ending a "doomed" pregnancy, even though I know people who have elected to allow the baby to die in its own time. I really see God dealing individually with people in this area, and I can't make a blanket statement for all situations. I believe God's ways do not follow "formulas".
Dawn's example above, though, of the teacher who became pregnant and lost her job, brings up the point I'm really making. I believe that using abortion as a means of avoiding the consequences of one's own choices is morally wrong. God always asks us to face truth and live in reality. Part of that facing truth is not punishing another for the sake of escaping one's own feelings of shame.
As long as I didn't see the fetus as a person, it really made no sense to me why abortion couldn't actually be used as a form of "birth control" in extreme circumstances. I remember many times in the past thinking that early abortion would be a great solution to a great many problems, and I could never understand why people agonized over the idea of whether or not to have one. I now see that God actually gives life, and He gives a spirit that has eternal implications to each baby conceived.
I cannot see myself as "more significant" or "more human" than an unwanted baby. The Bible is clear that God does not prevent consequences, and part of our maturity is gained in facing them and submitting the consequences to God for redemption.
Regarding captial punishment: I do not have a clear "black and white" view of that situation, either. I do see it as completely different from the issue of abortion. In the case of a sociopath who is a danger to society, his punishment is a consequence of his repeated choices. Unlike as unborn baby who might be killed so an adult can avoid consequences, a criminal might be executed as a conequence of his own crimes and as a protection from further transgressions against people.
Again, I cannot say I am either "for" or "against" capital punishment. I understand it as a consequence for out-of-control evilóand there is biblical precendent for people repaing the coneqeunces of their sin. Romans 1 says the wrath of God is even now being poured out on the wicked as He allows them to become entrenched in their debauchery, reaping their consequences. On the other hand, do I think capital punishment can be misused? Yes.
I cannot say I am for or against a capital punishment, and I cannot say I would condemn certain decisions for abortion given extreme circumstances. I am content to leave those specific cases to God, knowing that we are all broken, and we all are faced with situations in which there is no good solution.
My complaint is with a cavalier view of unborn life. And my change in opinion did not occur because the Christians I now "hang out with" disapprove of abortion. My change of opinion came quite surprisingly as an internal conviction completely unrelated to popular arguments.
I believe we all are called to truth and reality, standing open before God and alowing Him to convict us of sin and moral laziness so we can, in turn, lay at His feet our self-serving attitudes and fear. He wastes nothingóand He forgives all sins. He redeems everything we submit to Him. And He teaches us His will, situation by situation.
We can trust Him.
Colleen |
Toria
Registered user
Username: Toria
Post Number: 91
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 3:30 pm: | |
I have been reading the above posts with some interest.
Due to a childhood illness, I was unable to become pregnant.
I have a wonderful son and two precious grandsons, all because some other woman decided not to have an abortion.
There are usually other choices.
Blessings
toria |
Timmy
Registered user
Username: Timmy
Post Number: 175
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 3:31 pm: | |
Ikilgore,
Good point, I have always believed abortion was wrong, but I could not speek my mind or protest it. They told me if the moral issues of abortion were regulated by the government, next would be the "Sunday Laws"
So now that I am free in Jesus I can fight for what's right. What's right is right, what's wrong is wrong.
Doesn't Spiritual freedom feel great!!! |
Doug222
Registered user
Username: Doug222
Post Number: 527
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 4:02 pm: | |
Thanks for the clarification Colleen. I definitely agree that in some cases capital punishment is a natural consequence for sociopathic behavior. On the other hand, I find it strange that many conservative Christians can be militantly pro-life and just as militantly pro-capital punishment. Sometimes there seems to be a disconnect. I would agree though that to some degree, we're talking apples and oranges.
Doug |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 631
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 5:02 pm: | |
Well Doug,
The criminal that has acted in such a way as to reap capital punish usually in almost all case's at least here in the U.S. did so out of choice and was sentenced to death by his peers.
The unborn child has done nothing worthy of death but is sentenced to death for being there, and by one or two people, let every purposed abortion be tried by a jury of twelve to see if he/she is worthy of death and see what the outcome is, the unborn child doesn't even get a trial, where as the ax murder get a fair trial, actually more that fair in most cases.
River |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 242
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 7:01 am: | |
I wasn't raised Adventist. I was raised in a mainstream Protestant denomination from the time I was an infant. Early in my first marriage and long before I had ever heard of Adventism, I became pregnant. I had already had one small child. I knew my marriage was falling apart and didn't want a second baby complicating my already complicated life. So I had an abortion.
Deep inside, I knew it was wrong, but I did it anyway. It was legal, after all. So, I reasoned, it must not be all that wrong. I knew all the arguments pro and con, and still made my choice to abort.
Years later, as I was studying the Old Testament in depth, I came across the verse that says:
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." Leviticus 17:11
The Holy Spirit caused me to ponder the significance of that verse as it relates to abortion. The life is in the blood. Hmmm...the life is in the blood.
The question came into my mind, "When are blood cells formed in the fetus?" I reasoned that it must be at that point then, that the fetus would become a life. And we are told all through the Bible it is wrong to take a life.
I did some research and discovered that the blood cells are formed in the fetus on about the 17th day after conception, which is long before a woman can even begin to suspect she is pregnant. That settled the question for me once and for all.
Abortion is murder. I was a murderer.
If abortion had been illegal back then, I would have not only been guilty before God, but I would also have been worthy of the same penalties that other murderers have received throughout history. Namely, a life sentence or death.
The heart is desperately wicked and my heart is as desperately wicked as the next person's heart. In all reality, I'm no better than the worst criminal. I have sinned and come short of the glory of God. I'm a dead woman walking, deserving of the death penalty. Without Christ, I would be so depressed by this realizationt that I would probably take my own life.
But thanks be to God, I have been set free by the blood of the Lamb, to whom I owe everything. Jesus paid it all. All to Him I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain. He washed it white as snow.
I'm clean by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. She that is forgiven much loves much.
I love you, Jesus! Thank you for exchanging your perfect life for my desperately sin-encrusted wimpy excuse for a life. You are truly awesome!
Honestwitness |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5619
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 2:16 pm: | |
Praise God, Honestwitness! He has rescued us all from desperate wickedness and given us His life.
Praise God for His Son, for the cross, and for the Resurrection!
Colleen |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 509
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 4:23 pm: | |
Honestwitness,
"I love you, Jesus! Thank you for exchanging your perfect life for my desperately sin-encrusted wimpy excuse for a life. You are truly awesome!"
I love how you worded that. Thank you for sharing your story. That verse I would never have thought of, but in reading it, I see the power in it! There IS life in the blood. Jesus' blood.
God bless you Friend,
Leigh Anne |
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