| Author |
Message |
Brian3
Registered user
Username: Brian3
Post Number: 92
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 8:21 am: |     |
http://host.heartquest.tv/index.php
Am I reading more into the above than is there? I'm picking up a lot of emergent church/seeker sensitive vibes. |
Doug222
Registered user
Username: Doug222
Post Number: 524
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 9:05 am: | |
Brian,
I guess some people have a problem with "seeker sensitive" churches. Maybe its because I lack information, but I personally do not see how making the Gospel relevant to the audience is a bad thing. Even Jesus reached people "where they were," whereas the religious leaders came at them with a lot of religious ritual and theology. Personally, I have always thought that most Adventist evangelism was focused on the churched, and that an unchurched person would quickly find themselves "in over their head." There was an unwritten expectation that a person would have already had "taken some prerequisite courses."
Now, that's a philosophical view. From a practical stand point, I suspect its the same product, just in a different package--and that, I have a problem with.
Doug |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5612
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 9:12 am: | |
Brian, I see emergent vibes as well. The fact is that Adventism fits the emergent trends very well. Historically it responded to a current situation (the great disappointment) by re-formulating every classic Christian doctrine. While they have their own doctrinal core today, they can morph to fit whatever they perceive people's "felt needs" to be.
I notice that HeartQuest is being promoted as a more individual or small group event than the previous NET broadcasts. They are urging people to make their homes "registered sites", hoping to provide people with something to appeal to their more secular neighbors.
It sounds as if they are soft-pedalling the classic prophecy emphasis and looking instead to appealing to people's desire for community. It reminds me of one of Rick Rice's latest books (he's on the faculty of religion at LLU and is a major pioneer in the "open theism" idea) where he makes a case for the idea that one of Adventism's most compelling reasons for existence is the belonging and fellowship to be found in it.
It sounds as if this HeartQuest project is trying to appeal to people's feelings of isolation and emotional need, offering "belonging" and "fellowship" as reasons for checking out Adventism.
Sigh.
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1021
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 4:43 pm: | |
The contemporary designation known as "seeker-friendly" usually has some sort of easy-believism associated with it--without repentance being involved or encouraged. It draws on the selfishness of man to be the captain of his eternal destiny. This easy-believism (seeker friendly) approach has direct ties to the legacy of the late Charles Finney (1792-1875) and his "anxious bench" innovation in evangelism.
It is akin to a gospel of works. You do this and that, walk this aisle, kneel here on this step or bench, repeat after me, and then God will respond by doing his part for you. It is a "me first and God last" type of theology. Typically, an upbeat revivalist will literally tag people as being saved during an altar call. By the way, who has authorized finite human beings to make such a declaration or determination for anyone else? Salvation is a very personal matter. Salvation is from the Lord. Soli Deo Gloria (to God alone the glory)!
Dennis Fischer |
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd
Post Number: 267
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 5:48 pm: | |
Amen, Dennis. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1022
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 9:38 am: | |
The Seventh-day Adventist Church has recently issued a statement on Islam. Bertil Wiklander, president of their Trans-European region, issed a call for Adventists to commit to "honesty, fairness, and respect in describing Islamic faith." Amazingly, Wiklander's statement further recognizes Islam's prophet Muhammad as "a spiritual and social reformer at a time of confusion and ignorance...We are looking for a good relationship with Islam."
He also claims that Christians and Muslims share the same Creator-God and Abrahamic heritage. Having already deceived the Christian world, they are now trying to accomplish the same with the Islamic world. Apparently, Bertil Wiklander is an equal opportunity false prophet lover. However, the Islamic people do not generally regard Adventists as friends being that they worship on the same day as their Jewish enemies.
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5621
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 8:38 pm: | |
Dennis, what an accurateóand funnyóstatement: "Apparently, Bertil Wiklander is an equal opportunity false prophet lover."
I know that the Adventists structure their evangelism of Muslims around their common food laws, ancestor, and even much of the OT law. They also believe that, as you stated above, Muslims worship the same Godóthey just need to know who Jesus is. I remember Jerry Whitehead, the director of Muslim relations for the SDA church in the mid-90's, telling me that Adventist missionaries go and live like Muslims among the Muslims, that when a Muslim discovers Jesus, he doesn't have to stop being a Muslim. He's can remain Muslim but know he has accepted Jesus as the Messiah.
I felt intrigued and also a bit confused by this notion when I heard in 1996óI remember the first time I actually heard someone state that Muslims worship a different godóthat if it were the same God, they would accept Jesus. That was such a startling, perspective-changing idea, and suddenly the whole issue made sense.
Adventists can evangelize Muslims in this way because their own religion doesn't truly teach or understand the real God. It really exposes their lack of trust in the reliability of the Bible and its unequivocal statements about Jesus and His central role and relationship to the Father.
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1746
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 11:03 am: | |
And in Africa, the Adventists try to convince the Muslims that both the Bible and the "Glorious Qur'an" teach Tritheism (three gods)! I've posted some of the following quotes before, but they are just amazing. These are from articles by Mallam Tambaya on the official website of the West-Central Africa Division of the SDA church:
quote:"This rather intriguing topic is, more or less, a continuation of another related one entitled THE MYSTERY OF DIVINITY. Therein, in a nutshell, it is revealed that the omnipotent God is not limited by time or space in His existence and operation. Thus God is presented in terms of a single personality1 as well as in plural personalities.2 It is also pointed out that, according to the Holy Bible, the Supreme Deity is, evidently, a harmonious Council of Three Divine Beings, namely, 'the Father, . . . the Son and . . . the Holy Spirit.'3 The Glorious Qur'an, too, seems to allude to this Divine Council as comprising 'the Chiefs on High.'4 In both books, attempts have been made to describe Divinity in finite human terms. One point that is made clear in that paper is that, in whatever form He manifests Himself, singular or plural, God is the powerful Creator of the universe and that His eternal existence means that He has neither a beginning nor an end. Let us now continue this stimulating discussion and study as God's Spirit continues to enlighten us along the way through the mystery.
[...]
"Furthermore, consider their mode of operation. Since they operate as a unique Council, they never disagree on any point, very much unlike humans. On creation, for instance, they agreed for the Father to give the command, 'Let Us make man in Our image'. [...] Moreover, this Divine Council unanimously agreed to send the Word of God to become the Messiah [Jesus], according to Isaiah 48:16. Note how the Three Divine Council Members collaborated during the Messiah's sojourn and mission on planet earth:
[...]
"So also the Divine Council unanimously consented to send the Holy Spirit after the Messiah's ascension,20 which promise was fulfilled on Pentecost Day, i.e., fifty days after the Messiah's resurrection, according to Acts 2:1-4, 33. Furthermore, the Three collaborate in their loving acts of redemption.
[...]
"Therefore, unlike idols, Godhead is not three Gods in one God, but Three Supreme Beings in One God. I lack appropriate illustration. But let me use the analogy of the chemical compound H2O. Ordinary water is H2O.. Vapor is H2O. Ice is H2O. However, Water + Vapor + Ice = H2O. Similarly, the Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit also is God. But whenever Two of them, or all Three come together, they think, talk and act together as One God.
[...]
"GOD AND GODS CONTRASTED
"In summary, we have seen that in the Supreme Divinity or Godhead there are both singularity and plurality - unity in diversity per excellence! That the heavenly Supreme Council, consisting of the Three Chiefs on High, exist from everlasting to everlasting and that all Three Members play their respective roles in creation and redemption, for example, in perfect unanimity with each other. So when we read warning reminders from God like 'There is no God besides Me',25 they have nothing to do with the mysterious relationship existing within this Divine Council.
"Rather, such challenging reminders have everything to do with the contrasting relationship between the self-exising, life-giving, life-saving Creator-Godhead and the myriads of man-made, or self-declared gods. These animate and inanimate gods cannot create,26 instead they are themselves created by human imaginations or machinations.27 Worse still, they cannot save or deliver anyone."
--http://www.wad-adventist.org/documents/Unity%20in%20Diversity.pdf
And in the other article, "THE MYSTERY OF DIVINITY," Mallam Tambaya writes:
quote:"Note the singularity of the word 'name' and the plurality of the Personalities that it refers to above. In the Holy Bible,20 the Divine Council consisting three Unique Holy Personalities is called the 'Godhead' which came to be known as the Trinity.
[...]
"In UNITY IN DIVERSITY, I have outlined how the 'Godhead' or Three 'Chiefs on High' operate together and separately but in perfect harmony, without any hint of clashes or conflicts. This is because both Matthew 19:26 and Al-Imram 3:189 assert that with God all things are possible."
--http://www.wad-adventist.org/documents/Mystery%20of%20Divinity.pdf
The blatant Tritheism is just astounding (not to mention the use of both the Bible and the "Glorious Qur'an" as equal sources of authoritative revelation!)
What I would like to know is, when "Two of them" "come together" and "act" "as One God"--where is the third one off to?
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5626
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 8:01 pm: | |
Good question, Jeremy! As I read your quotes above, I remembered that as a child I used to ponder that we were to "have no other Gods besides Me", but that Jesus was to be revered, and how was I to understand "no other gods besides Me" when I had at least two Persons I was to revere? (I never really considered the Holy Spirit as I considered this conundrum...)
I really did not think of God as "One". I thought of God as "Three" comprising a sort of "family". The fact that God is One did not really make sense to me, especially when Jesus was portrayed as not really being one with the Father.
Praise God for His longsuffering and faithful teaching!
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1024
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:53 am: | |
The "oneness" of the Godhead is clearly revealed in the following statement by Jesus:
"...He who has seen Me has seen the Father..." (John 14:9 NASB).
Dennis Fischer |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3525
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 8:38 pm: | |
Thanks Dennis. I have read that verse, but never saw it like that.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5638
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 10:36 am: | |
Great point, Dennis. Thank you.
Colleen |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 29
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 9:01 am: | |
Don't forget that Muslims and SDAs also both share the same salvation by works doctrine as well.
I know a SDA pastor from Nigeria who was a Muslim before he became an SDA. He was preaching that Muslims don't know whether they are really "saved" whether their "good works" will outweigh their "sins" until after they die.
He shared when he became a Christian he had assurance of salvation.(note that this pastor was educated at a Baptist rather than an SDA seminary so maybe that's where he got the correct Christian idea of being assured of your salvation) So then he doesn't believe in the IJ?? Because an SDA that believes in the IJ has no more assurance of salvation that a Muslim does. In fact the IJ appears to be very similar to what the Muslim idea of whether one is saved or not.
Also SDAs and Muslims have the same idea in common that believers in "other" faiths are "unclean". My wife is originally from Indoesia which is predominantly Muslim and she has told me how the Muslims consider the Christians, Buddhists, and Hindus there "unclean". I thought in my mind but didn't tell her "yeah the SDAs believe the same kind of stuff about believers in other faiths.
And Adventism and Islam are also FALSE.
They have a lot in common, don't they? |
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