| Author | Message | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hi all, This is my first post, and some of you are gonna jump on me and try to get my story right away! Give me a little time, as I want to get the exact details squared away with the wife! OK, on to the subject. This tactic of "balancing statements" I think is truly deceptive, as it would make anyone look like the SDA-redefined-definition of a prophet as long as you made conflicting statements, and lots of them. Here is a list of questions one might ask a White-devotee that he/she likely never thought of. I assume anyone that uses "balancing statements" has faith in the one who introduced him to them. And as we all know, faith in anyone but the Savior is utterly deadly. 1. Did Ellen G. White ever recommend the use of balancing statements? 2. If not, where and when did the term arise? 3. Who exactly originated this term? Are they inspired? 4. How does a person know if he has the exact right blend of balancing statements? 5. Do all 25,000,000 words that Ellen G. White wrote have to be accounted for when balancing statements? If not, is their faith involved? 6. Are balancing statements merely contradicting statements? Can this be proven? 7. Does a prophet of God contradict the Bible? Is it okay for Ellen G. White to do this? 8. Give valid examples of balancing statements between conflicting statements of Jesus and Paul. 9. Did early church believers (50 AD) have access to all New Testament books, to balance things? Did they err in salvation issues? 10. Because Ellen G. White has opposing, confusing statements, we are to believe the same of the Bible? 11. Could anyone look like a prophet using balancing statements? 12. Do balancing statements get Ellen G. White out of trouble for adding to the book of Revelation? 13. Can a "vision from God" (Early Writings p. 125-126) be somehow balanced 40 years later with mere statements, assertions, or plagiarized material? 14. When balancing statements, can you take two conflicting statements and merely arrive at an "average" statement? If not, what exactly are the rules, who wrote them and by what authority? 15.What other denominations or institutions subscribe to the "balancing statement" technique? 16. Are balancing statements a method for the faithful to maintain full faith in Ellen G. White? 17. Shouldn't balancing statements only come from the Bible? If not, prove why. 18. Who decides what sources balancing statements come from? See number 17. 19. Isn't it odd that a church that pleads with new prey to come out of Babylon (confusion), into the SDA organization, would need to resort to "balancing statements"? 20. Would this technique really hold up in a court of law? 21. Do "balancing statements" sear the conscience? Prove it. 22. Should any of us that do not know all 25,000,000 "prophetic words", hence "balanced statements", even be reading Ellen G. White material? How can we trust we are reading it correctly? 23. Do "balancing statements" leave any room for the Holy Spirit? Prove it. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5901 Registered: 12-2003  |
Welcome, Larry. Glad you're here! Yes, the Adventist defense of Ellen certainly raises a LOT of questions! You ask some good ones. The problem, bottom line, is the spiritual veil that blinds Adventists (as it did us all) to actually admitting the fallacies our their own defenses. They actually BELLIEVE their rationalizations. Logic is powerless against their obfuscation. Sigh. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3670 Registered: 3-2004  |
Larry, Welcome to FAF. We are glad you are here to join us. When you are ready tell us about your journey toward Christ and out of adventism. About me and EGW-she is a false prophet and if anyone tries to convince me other wise I tell them that that is between me and God. If they want to believe her, that is between them and God. Welcome again, Diana | ||
| Toria Registered user Username: Toria Post Number: 135 Registered: 2-2006  |
Larry, Welcome to the forum. Happy that you joined us. Blessings Toria | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 73 Registered: 5-2007 |
Welcome, Larry. You raise some really good points. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks. Here are a few more: 12b. Do balancing statements get Ellen G. White out of trouble for preaching a different gospel (sanctuary doctrine)? 24a. How do "balancing statements" fit with this Bible verse: God is NOT the author of confusion. 1 Corinthians 14:33 24b. How do "balancing statements" fit with this Bible verse: No lie is of the truth. 1 John 2:21 25. Might we also apply the "balancing statements" technique to Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, and Mary Eddy Baker with equally pleasing results? How do we know this is not acceptable? (Message edited by Larry on May 26, 2007) | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2007 |
24c. How do "balancing statements" fit with this Bible verse: All liars - their place will be in a fiery lake of burning sulfur. Revelation 21:8 24d. How do "balancing statements" fit with this Bible verse: They perish because they REFUSE to love the truth and so be saved. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 24e. How do "balancing statements" fit with this Bible verse: If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases His glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner? Romans 3:7 (Message edited by Larry on May 26, 2007) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1080 Registered: 4-2000  |
Larry, Excellent thoughts on the so-called need to "balance statements" from Ellen White. I printed them out for my already overloaded files on EGW. Based on the "balancing statements" concept, we would be required to read every word attributed to Ellen White before making any theological conclusion. My personal NASB Bible has 1,749 pages. The White Estate claims 100,000 pages for Ellen White. This is not a balance, but rather an obvious imbalance in authority. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3674 Registered: 3-2004 |
NASB 1749 pages vs EGW 100000 pages. Yes, that is an obvious imbalance. What will they think of next to keep EGW as their prophet??? It never ceases to amaze me!!! Diana | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2007 |
Dennis, Thanks for your comments. If one has to read and know "every word", should that not also include the statements and writings the Estate will NOT let you see? hmmm, gets muddy very quickly doesn't it? I understand that the White Summit also made liberal use of the term "hate site" when addressing the truth sites. Isn't there a law, here in the USA against religious hate sites? Shouldn't the SDA organization have persued that mode if these truly are hate sites? Seems like that would be a far easier course for them to take instead of trying to aquire the domain name from Dirk Anderson. 26. To form a "balanced view" of a site such as www.ellenwhite.org, wouldn't a logical, non-fanatical person want to know what the whole site contained? Isn't that the standard applied to Ellen G. Whites writings? Are there now two different standards? Also, is there ANY faith involved with believing www.ellenwhite.org is a hate-site without actually checking it out in its entirety? Can the SDA brand of faith not stand up against this information? | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks Diana, The interesting part of EGW's 100 thousand pages of stuff is that alot of it is not even hers, but purloined! Perhaps somebody could help me with the formation of point number 27. It involves this phrase: Fanaticism is not logical - they are so certain of their beliefs that they stop thinking and say "I believe it and that's it" also called "taking a stand". I am at odds with how to incorporate it into a "balancing statements" point of contention! Everybody feel free to add your own points of contention. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3678 Registered: 3-2004 |
There is an SDA on CARM, who also writes on another website-Christian Foundation, who is going over some of EGW's books. He is saying she did not plagiarize. He writes that his work will be published. No matter what happens, she contradicts the Bible and made prophecies that did not come true. It is interesting to read the way those folks dance around and try to justify these things. Diana | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 142 Registered: 7-2000 |
Larry, welcome to FAF. I am not sure where to post this, but this thread is as good as any or better than another place. It is unbelieveable the lengths the Adventist church go to adjust the falsehood at the root of the denomination. I understand some people's sensitivities about offending our Adventist friends by speaking the truth,strongly about EGW. However, dismissing or sidestepping and not addressing it says much about my self adulation and people pleasing ways. I need to question my resistance to honestly and look at what is behind my appeasing ways and attitude. A strong opinion obviously. Where do we draw the line ? I want my physician to sensitive and I need him/her to straight forward should they detect any serious medical condition that my affect my life. My favorite TV show is 24 hours. I love Jack Bauer's kill and destroy stance. This says a lot about my mindset. I have to also confess I have watched the American Idol competition more than a few times. I find it interesting, no surprises, that people appreciate and welcome the brut force honesty Simon Cowell spurts week after week when he accesses the performers. However, Paula Abdul's sweetness and non judgmental attitude are quietly discounted. I suspect people politely dismiss her opinions. She tells them what they all wish are true but I suspect they know she is not helping them improve so they do not take her seriously. Similarly, the Liberal religious communities and churches are so sensitive and people pleasing that they love their congregation right into hell. They sanitize scripture and never mention hell and sin and the blood of Christ. Is this good? If God, through the scriptures warned us to beware of false prophets/teachers should we be less candid about identifying them and the fruit about their works. False prophets and false teachers are just plain and simple-FALSE. They are controlled by evil spirits, period. My understanding of scripture magnifies the seriousness about who and what is leading the false. I am unsympathetic toward them. I have personally experienced the ill effects of the fruits of a false prophet, ELLEN G.WHITE, one of the founders of the SDA church. Because I understand, from scripture, mind you, that false prophets are led and directed by evil spirits, I shudder at the thought and will not simply say Mrs White was innocent or misguided or a product of her time or a begnin christian woman. NO! Because God poured His love into my heart by the Holy Spirit whom He gave me, He leads me to be caring and loving to people deceived by the false prophet I know, Ellen G. White. Recently, I read an article-sermon- by Ray Stedman, Pastor of Peninsular Bible Church in California, now deceased. This has stirred latent boldness or passion in my heart to not be afraid to say, with reverence from the Lord, what need to be said. Ellen G.White was as FALSE as false-prophets come, so with much fear and trepidation I type/say/write, she had to be led by an evil spirit. 1BELOVED, DO not put faith in every spirit, but prove (test) the spirits to discover whether they proceed from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world. 2By this you may know (perceive and recognize) the Spirit of God: every spirit which acknowledges and confesses [the fact] that Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [actually] has become man and has come in the flesh is of God [has God for its source]; 3And every spirit which does not acknowledge and confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh [but would [a]annul, destroy, [b]sever, disunite Him] is not of God [does not proceed from Him]. This [[c]nonconfession] is the [spirit] of the antichrist, [of] which you heard that it was coming, and now it is already in the world. 1 John 4:1-3 AMP Ray Stedman says, "...behind the false prophet or false teacher is an evil spirit. Men simply do not speak out of their own intellectual attainments." Erma | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 143 Registered: 7-2000 |
Here is the link to the site and a few excerpts you may find interesting. http://www.raystedman.org/1john/0161.html …behind the false prophet or false teacher is an evil spirit. Men simply do not speak out of their own intellectual attainments. Quite unconscious to themselves they are being guided -- and misguided -- by an evil spirit, a "spirit of error" John calls it, an anti-Christian spirit which is behind these false prophets and teachers. There is a true Spirit, the Holy Spirit of truth, the Spirit of love, and just as he speaks through men, so evil spirits, false spirits, the spirits of error, also speak through men. When you hear men and women talking about religious things or values, do not gullibly swallow everything they say, especially if they appear to be attractively setting forth something about love and sweetness and light and concern for others. Especially test that line, for it is the usual approach of error. Recognize that behind the individual may be a spirit of error . But if we are going to follow the words of Jesus Christ we must accept what he says is the explanation of the power behind evil in the world. He makes clear that it comes from a host of evil spirits. We have seen this before, in Paul. "We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, wicked spirits in high places" (Ephesians 6:12 KJV), against the very headquarters of evil that is at work, affecting the minds of men. Part of the blindness of our generation, resulting in chaos and anarchy that is increasing on every side today, is a direct result of man in his arrogance and pride saying, "I reject the whole concept of evil spirits and demons . It is intellectually unacceptable to me." The blindness of that attitude precludes any defense against it. If we are going to be Christians we must look at the world as Christ sees it, we must understand it from his point of view. We must recognize that the pronouncements of men in this field of religion and spiritual teaching, no matter whether they be professors in seminaries or colleges, or whether they be pastors behind pulpits, or whatever they may be, are not a result of their keen logic or their academic training or their perceptive thinking, alone. These men are oftentimes unaware of the twist that is given to their thinking by the activity of evil spirits, spirits of error. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1812 Registered: 10-2004  |
Wow, Erma, thanks for your posts. And Ray Stedman is absolutely right that false prophets are led by an evil spirit--that's what 1 John 4 says! Jeremy | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2007 |
God is the author of ALL truth. Satan is the father of lies. Anyone who claims that knowledge was revealed to them by a ‘guide’ and that knowledge contradicts the Bible or is proven false, did not receive it from God. The guide, therefore, must either be imaginary (deluded), a lie ( a deliberate falsehood in an attempt to establish credibility) or Satan. Any of these answers would justify repudiating all of her writings. Demonic influence makes me extremely uncomfortable to use as an explanation for the inconsistencies found in her writings and I find it difficult to accept that someone could maintain such a flow of falsehoods over so many years so… I lean to delusional. JonVil | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1814 Registered: 10-2004 |
JonVil, So you're saying that you think EGW "hallucinated" her spirit guide? Then where did those hallucinations come from? Where did the voice and words of her "hallucinated spirit guide" come from? Do you think it is possible for someone to hallucinate a "spirit guide" that has a special "message" for them, without having input from demonic powers? These are just a few questions that came to mind.  Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 26, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5905 Registered: 12-2003 |
Bmorgan, wow! Thanks also for the Ray Stedman quotes; he speaks about this issue with a clarity and conviction that I can't ignore. This passage was especially significant: "…behind the false prophet or false teacher is an evil spirit. Men simply do not speak out of their own intellectual attainments. Quite unconscious to themselves they are being guided -- and misguided -- by an evil spirit, a "spirit of error" John calls it, an anti-Christian spirit which is behind these false prophets and teachers. " Jonvil, I totally understand your reaction--and yes, any of those reasons are reason enought to discount Ellen as a valid source of information. Lies and deception, though, only come from one source. We don't need to feel ashamed, fearful, "stupid" (that's the feeling I first had!), or disoriented to face the truth of the dark core of what we came from. We are all born into the domain of darkness (Col 1:13), and we all were by nature objects or wrath, under the influence of the spirit who is now at work in the disobeident (Ephesians 2:1-3). Being under the influence of a false prophet is not at all surprising. Everyone is under the influence of SOME sort of evil before they say Yes to Jesus and follow Him into the light. There is great freedom and also deep understanding of the confusion we knew when we finally accept the reality of the issues of evil and good that surround our past and God's call on us to follow Him into a new life. Colleen | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2007 |
Jeremy, I’m not by any means an expert on this subject. I do believe that a person can live a delusional life without necessarily being demon processed. My position is that regardless of the source the results are to be ignored as worthless. If I refuse to read any of her writings I cannot be further influenced by her. She’s DEAD- let’s leave her there. JonVil | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 111 Registered: 10-2006 |
JonVil, Thank you, that's been my position for some time now - "she's dead", like the wicked witch of the West. She is dead and gone. There has been nothing new since she died, except SDA efforts to cover up, rewrite, and lie in an attempt to restore and maintain their authority and of course, keep the money flowing. I just don't see the point of discussing whether or not she was delusional, deluded, or possessed. She's dead - why resurrect her to put her on trial? I choose to spend my energy on the Good News. I appreciate the efforts by many to disenfranchise us from her deceptions (whatever the source), but it is a spiritual rabbit trail to spend undue time and energy on a dead woman. I think she herself might say - instead of spending time on me, how about spending time on the dead Adventist church. For her list of the sins of Adventism, see notes in SDA commentary on the 3rd chapter of Revelation. If Ellen was their Adolph Hitler, then they are the Nazi brigades reinforcing and forever inventing anew her "work". Ellen White - WHO CARES? I don't need answers and insight into her writings and life in order to solidify my position, or for that matter, to try to influence someone else of my convictions. I apologize if this sounds a little pontificatingly smug, but for God's sake - leave dem bones alone! Just my humble opinion. steve | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3685 Registered: 3-2004 |
Stevendi, I completely understand what you are saying. The only problem, for me, is that she has had such an influence on SDAs. But again, I am finding, on CARM, that talking about EGW's faults make the SDAs protect her more fiercely. They do not want to hear what she has done. As well, they do not want to hear what the Bible really says about Jesus Christ. I have to remember that is the veil talked about in the Bible. So, I just pray for them that God remove the veil. He will do that in His time. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2007 |
Stevendi, I feel that the ‘why’ she wrote distracts from the ‘what’ she wrote. Let those who are still questioning make up their own minds based on the presentation of the historical record without the hysteria of attributing motives. I’m convinced that the honest seeker of truth in this matter will see thru the mental gymnastics used to ‘explain’ away the glaring incongruities found in her ‘inspired’ writings. It’s an individual journey and we each must draw our own conclusions based on the facts as revealed by the record. JonVil | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 550 Registered: 6-2006  |
(Jumping in with my own humble opinion) Being in a family that is fiercy loyal to EGW, she is very much alive to them and many other SDAs that I know. They keep her alive by having every "red book" they can get their hands on, they keep her alive by preaching her words in church, and they keep her alive every time they keep some kind of "law" or rule that isn't in the bible. My own fil refuses to watch his grandkids play basketball at their academy because EGW said it was "sinful". EGW has such a hold on many of my loved ones, that to just say she was delusional or poorly directed, or mentally ill diminishes the damage that she continues to wreak on sincere people who truly want to obey and follow God. I just get the feeling that her influence tends to be so strong that even some formers are afraid to deny her for fear that she might have been right. I say this with all due love and respect. My heart aches for my family who has this giant EGW pillar that hinders them from a real and intimate relationship with Jesus. Leigh Anne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 788 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: I just get the feeling that her influence tends to be so strong that even some formers are afraid to deny her for fear that she might have been right. I say this with all due love and respect. My heart aches for my family who has this giant EGW pillar that hinders them from a real and intimate relationship with Jesus. Thank you Leigh Anne. That’s why we don’t “Leave dem bones alone, if the Adventist would have left “dem bones” down at the graveyard then there would be no problem. Ever time someone says E.G. I start howling false prophet like a coyote whose had his hind end rubbed with gasoline and set afire. As the quote goes in the great John Wayne move “The Searchers” “step over that ar piece a farwood” River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5911 Registered: 12-2003 |
The reason I've spent any time at all on the source of Ellen's "inspiration" stems back to the conversation I had with our younger son, then 11 yrs old, as we were getting ready to transfer him from SDA school to a Christian school. He was upset and worried, and I sat him down to talk about it. Praying as I spoke (I had no clear idea how to make this plain to him because he was both stubborn and fearful of change), I asked him questions. As I walked him through why we didn't want him at SDA school (he was very clear about that subject), I asked him what was wrong with Ellen White. He replied, "She was a false prophet!" Praying, I asked the next logical question: "If she was a false prophet, where did her visions come from?" I assure you, I had never even had this thought or question before. Without even a pause, he replied, "Satan!" I was blown away--a completely NEW idea to me, and both revolting and deeply convicting. Now I was tense and felt shaky inside. Praying for God's words, I opened my mouth and literally heard myself say something I had NEVER thought, and as I spoke these words, I felt overwhelmed and shaken: "Well, because her visions came from Satan, Satan has a claim on Adventism. This claim is why they cannot clearly teach the gospel, why they can't resolve conflicts well, why it's hard to have good, deep, lasting friendships,"...etc. My son was satisfied and relieved, but I was a mess. I told Richard, and he thoughtfully agreed it was so. About a month later he led us in prayer and asked God to take away the spirit of Adventism from our hearts and put the Holy Spirit in the place where it had resided in our hearts. That moment all my emotional attachment and backward glances to the church ended. Richard said it marked for him the moment when he KNEW he was born again. Adventism has a spiritual claim on Adventists. We realized that if we had been Mormons, we would have had to renounce the evil influence and claim of that cult, because we KNEW it had an evil spirit. We realized we had to do the same with Adventism. Lies are never netural; they come from the father of lies. We had to acknowledge the spiritual claim Advemtism had on us and surrender it to Jesus. It is real. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1820 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thank you for your very good posts, Leigh Anne, River, and Colleen. The issue comes down to whether we are willing to believe God's Word or not. 1 John 4:1-3 says that false prophets are led by an evil spirit. The question we have to ask ourselves is: Do I believe 1 John 4, or not? If EGW did not have demonic input, then yes we should say that she's dead and has no more influence, etc. But since she did have demonic input, then the evil spirit(s) that guided her is still at work and influencing people tremendously! And if we do not RENOUNCE that demonic spirit behind Adventism, it could still influence us. In order to be completely free of its hold, we need to acknowledge it and renounce it and let Jesus set us free completely in the Truth/Himself. Jeremy |
