| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 656 Registered: 9-2006  |
It is really kind of a funny and weird thing that so many Adventist get so upset at receiving Proclamation in the mail “Sad” as many of them put it, polite word for “yer dead meat”. It is weird because so many Adventist think nothing of sending me stuff, no doubt they feel perfectly justified in doing so, weird because it sets off absolutely nothing in me, no anger whatsoever. I tend to think it is because proclamation sets off the dissonance that seethes beneath the surface in their life and they react, they are already uncertain and a great many of them believe that Adventism will save them, they confess with their mouth the Lord but what they really mean is that he will save them Adventisms way so when they read something to the contrary they react with anger and fear to that. If the magazine was from the evangelical churches there would probably be no reaction but these are former Adventist ministers, teachers and workers that are writing these articles. These people can huff and puff all they want to but it will not change the uncertainty they feel brought on by the IJ and they will know deep in the night when they can hear nothing but the beating of their heart that these people [formers] have latched onto a freedom and Joy that they do not possess. There is a saying in the Pentecostal churches “If you aren’t making the devil mad you probably aren’t doing anything, it’s not when you stir him up that you should worry, it’s when he’s leaving you alone that you should worry because you may not be having impact on his territory. Personally the uncertainty of the IJ would drive me to despair in a week. I think it is coming a time real soon in which I will begin to refute some of these Adventist beliefs but I will wait for God’s timing otherwise it will just bounce off. I am convinced that Proclamation is accomplishing much and also this forum. Thank you Lord that it is up and running again. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5663 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, I totally agree with you re: what underlies so many Adventists' anger. It is actually deep fear and cognitive dissonance that they try very hard to squelch. I praise God for what He is doing. Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 523 Registered: 5-2002 |
Anger is an emotion secondary to either fear or pain. These outbursts of anger are therefore symptomatic of underlying fears or wounds (perhaps some of both). Current Adventists have much to fear, what, with the unceasing Heavenly investigation of every deed, thought, and even motive (including everything they SHOULD do, think, and feel but do not), the impending yet horrifying time of trouble, and the threat of to-the-death persecution from family and friends. I'd be a little cranky too. Come to think of it, I was for over 35 years! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 657 Registered: 9-2006 |
While it is true that the Adventist I know are sincere and while it is true that I cannot determine who is saved and who is lost, nor would I be justified in attempting to read the soul of any man, nor would I be justified in bringing condemnation on any man, what I think I am able to do is distinguish between the preaching of the cross of Christ and some other Gospel that is foreign to that gospel, to my mind any other gospel is rebellion, whether by sincerity or any other means. Sin is rebellion and rebellion is sin, therefore if one is in rebellion to the gospel of Christ he must still be living in his sin. In James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? James 2:15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, James 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? What then will my faith profit me if I see another preaching and living by another gospel if I do not preach Christ to him, do I just say “brother it’s all good, go, be warm, be filled?” This gospel of Christ thing can be a two edged sword if we are not careful, the blade cuts both ways. What I mean by that is, we can end up preaching “former Adventism” or “faith alone” or “tongues” “baptism” or “anti-Adventism” or “covenants” or any number of things and fail to preach Christ and him crucified. We can end up saying “Here brother, have it my way and be warm and be filled.” Isn’t that in effect what Adventism really says? “Here brother, have it our way, have a veggie, have a Sabbath, have an E.G.W., have a command, “have a book!” (you knew that I was going to say that again didn’t you?)  attend our church every Saturday, observe Sabbath from sunup to sundown, don’t do this and don’t do that and be warm and be filled. But what can warm us or fill us “what can wash away my sins, nothing but the blood of Jesus. What can make us whole again, nothing but the blood of Jesus. It has been said that someone “Has a God shaped hole in his heart” I disagree with that, what he has is rebellion against Christ in his heart and it is sin shaped and it is not a hole, it is filled all the way to perdition unless he is regenerated and made new in Christ. Is God striving to come into agreement with us? I doubt that very much, more like the Holy Spirit is striving with us to come into agreement with him. So that I have come into agreement with him that I can do nothing to save myself and that his righteousness must be my justification, is that about right? It has been said “It’s not about us, it’s about him” and while that statement has merit it can also end up being a two edged sword if we are not careful because Jesus seems to be all about us. He came that we might live and so we can zero in on that statement “Its not about us, it’s about him” so that we end up disregarding one another, count one another as nothing, and fail to love one another and I believe I have seen that happen! Not here mind you, but in a church, that is why I am telling you this because if we fail to love one another and disregard one another as being significant, I believe it is no longer about him. Why I believe this? We are the body of Christ. Now many of these conclusions I am just sort of growing into but I haven’t got the concrete out just yet. IMHO River P.S. I am having fun with a working Forum! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5665 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, what amazing insights. You are so right that we do not have a "God-shaped hole"—we are completely depraved apart from the awakening of the Holy Spirit. Yes, we are unresolvedly restless until we meet and submit to the Lord Jesus. But we are full of our sin (Eph. 2:1-3). And you're right on when you say that if we fail to preach Christ, we fail in the most important thing. We must point out error—it keeps people from hearing the gsopel—but to point out error without also teaching Jesus is bankrupt. What you said reminds me of a phone call we got this morning. I have mentioned before that we know a person who has never been associated with Adventism who has a counter-cult ministry addressing Mormonism, JWs, and Adventism. This person works with another counter-cult apologist who is in a different geographic location, and they often travel, meeting each other at different conferences and addressing the facts about the cults. Today he called and said he is placing signs with the web addresses of the former Adventist websites in strategic places in the community. Within a few days, these signs inevitably disappear. But, he said, he expects that. Then he said this: "They have the right to choose, but we have an obligation to tell them." We must tell people the truth. God has given us a great responsibility in knowing Him and in knowing the dangers of Adventism. We are obligated to offer this burden of knowledge to Him as our sacrifice of service and praise and allow Him to use it for His glory. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3541 Registered: 3-2004  |
In my 12 step program I learned we have a God shaped hole in us that we (I) were trying to fill with our addiction. This was before I came to know Christ and became a born again Christian. It is not a hole, it is my whole body, mind and spirit that was lacking God. Yes, we do have an obligation to tell others about God. I ask Him to show me and give me the words to say every day. Diana | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 428 Registered: 10-2001 |
I think you made a great point, River:Quote: "It is weird because so many Adventist think nothing of sending me stuff, no doubt they feel perfectly justified in doing so, weird because it sets off absolutely nothing in me, no anger whatsoever" That should go in the response section. They bombard our mailbox with Revelation Seminar junk, billboard across the street from my church that said we have the mark, but they sure can't take what they dish. Fear=anger. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1567 Registered: 7-2003 |
I remember one day when B had seen proclamation and he read a sentence on the cover story and was outraged. What was so funny was that it was a quote that I had heard him say to me several times, yet now that it was being said in public with a bright light on exactly what it meant, he was denying it was said in the church at all. Towards the end of our relationship, he commented about proclamation and that he knew I was reading on "that website". The tone was that it was a betrayal to even read something that challenged adventism. He had tried to 'defend' some of the statements in the 'anti-SDA' stuff, but he was just quoting what others said, and I kept challenging him to read for himself. Hear the stories. I have never seen anything like it. I tended to think it is seen as 'proof' of their impending persecution, and it is disturbing that they actually might agree with some of the criticism. What fear it must generate to think they're on the road to being deceived if they agree with their persecutors. | ||
| Ikilgore Registered user Username: Ikilgore Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2006 |
Hey guys, I have downloaded several issues from the website. What I am waiting for is the first issue to be delivered to my house. My mom will probally want to read it, but my dad will probally flip. Should be interesting. I hope that God will impress upon them what he wills. I am so tired of seeing them belong to a dead and dying church that doesn't preach Jesus. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 516 Registered: 6-2006  |
I'm still amazed that my Fil had the last issue on his nightstand. It sat there for a couple of weeks, then got moved to a shelf. Did he read it? I have no idea, but I sure hope so. My real hope is that his heart is soft enough to be the tinsiest bit curious. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 662 Registered: 9-2006 |
Hang in there Ikilgore, I prayed for one of my son's 15 years before I saw his life turn. I guess that's why the Bible says in Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls. Well, that may not be what he was talking about but when you wait 15 years for answer to prayer it brings that scripture home to roost anyhow. Keep praying my friend and don't get swayed by time. I am praying you and them. River | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 25 Registered: 5-2007 |
I was threatened by the Pastor of the SDA church I attend against my will with being disfellowshipped if I continue to read Proclamation.(hasn't stopped me). If he knew I was on this Forum I would be gone in less than 60 seconds(maybe that wouldn't be so bad). I want to leave the SDA church anyway, it's only to make my wife happy that I still bodily go there(and I don't take my mind and spirit with me). Who knows if he lurks on here? That's why I don't use my real name right now on my posts. I would prefer to leave peacefully rather than be disfellowshipped but I will accept whatever God's will is regarding this. It bothers me the Unchristian attitudes I see in some of these letters to the editor that Adventists write to Proclamation. They indict Adventism by this, IF it really were the truth, they wouldn't need to feel so threated by Proclamtion. When the SDA pastor had the meeting with my wife and I last fall when he threatened me with being disfellowshipped, he waved a copy of Proclamation at me and then he said the FAF in Redlands, CA has only 2 or 3 people at their Friday night meetings and he further told me that FAF is doing the work of Satan. I didn't believe him, of course. It just shows how scared and desperate the SDA leadership is, they know people are getting wise to what Adventism is about and making like trees and leaving. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5871 Registered: 12-2003 |
Sigh. Yes, we here those kinds of things a lot. There are most definitely more than 2 or 3 people at our Bible studies on Friday! Further, Dale Ratzlafff is starting an FAF in Arizona, and Ric and Sheryl Barker are part of a Bible study in Ohio geared for questioning and transitioning Adventists. No, this isn't a small movement of disgruntleds (why not make that word into a noun?!)--God Himself is at work, awakening people to Jesus and drawing them out of bondage and darkness. Praise Him! Colleen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen do Adventist pastors lurk on here? Do you think the Pastor of the SDA Church that I attend(against my will) will read any of my posts? I'm not using my real name on this forum but he may recognise my style of writing. IF he finds this out I will probably be disfellowshipped but then maybe it will be for the best as I want to leave anyway and this will force the issue. Right now I am just waiting for my wife to tell me she's ok with me leaving the SDA church for the Seventh Day Baptist and it seems like real progress is being made in that direction. Oh well, God is in control and His will be done. Yes, Praise Him! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5874 Registered: 12-2003 |
Reb, we don't know who lurks here. Anything is possible! (Although someone who reacted to Proclamation as he did may not want to "know" as much as we talk about here.) Colleen | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 867 Registered: 1-2003 |
There are several SDA pastors over on www.carm.org/sda If you want to debate one... | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2007 |
Good point, Colleen. I doubt that he would waste his time lurking here(unless he is questioning Adventism himself which I seriously doubt). If he does, though, I am in BIG trouble. But ya know what I want out of the SDA cult so badly I don't care anymore if I am disfellowshipped. The way my wife seems to be coming around, praise God, about my transition to the SDB Church, I may not be stuck in the SDA church much longer. I will just keep praying, His will be done. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2007 |
Reb, The SDB's also believe they are doing correct by putting themselves under the 10 commandments of the old covenant. Maybe good for transitioning out of the SDA organization, but still lacks the new covenant commands of 1 John 3:23 (entoles) and Revelation 12:17 (entoles) and Revelatin 14:12 (entoles). Entoles are greek for command or commandment. This is what SDA's want to ignore. Somebody correct me if I am off base! | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 829 Registered: 10-2002  |
My friend David came to visit us today from Kobe. He's a Christian I met in a bookstore in Osaka a few years ago. I was telling him a bit about the ministry of FAF & Proclamation, and how God's been moving and all the deep & wonderful things in Him, in His faithfulness & in His New Covenant. It was a fun talk, and we both shared a lot. When we ended up looking at all our books, I showed him a copy of the "Alive" Proclamation (the last edition, Easter) and he wanted to read it so I let him take it home. Haha. Hey, who said anyone needed to be anywhere near Adventism to be blessed by it? Stay with God folks, He's moving among you. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2007  |
Hello Reb, I would like to direct my comments towards your concern about the "threats" you are getting from your SDA pastor. I will try to make my point by sharing something of my own life. But, first, let me remind you of some things you already know. The will of Jesus Christ in your life is what counts most. Your pastors words are nothing. Your first responsibility, as a Christian husband, is to uphold your wife. How you come out of the SDA Church, I have no idea because our Lord works in many ways and I don't presume to know his plans for you. Two things I do know are; focus on Jesus Christ and focus on the needs of your wife. Now, a little about myself to help make my point. My SDA grandmother led me and my brother to the Lord when I was six and he was four. Shortly after that my brother died of leukemia. Apparently grandmother didn't follow strict SDA teaching because she clearly told me my brother was in heaven with Jesus. At age twelve I was baptized and joined the SDA Church. Of course, I was told that I couldn't know I was saved until Judgment Day. This terrified me because even at that young age there were sins that controlled and dominated my life. For the next four years I struggled to get control of these sins and be ready to face the judgment that I knew was coming. Then I was told that 90% of us, in a Sabbath sermon, were going to hell. My response was very practical. The odds were against me so I decided quit the pretense and openly be a sinner. (Eleven or twelve years then passed by.) In God's own timing, he put a faithful witness into my life who had me read and reread over and over Romans 8:35-39 until it suddenly came clear that I was sealed by the Holy Spirit. From age six, I belonged to Jesus and I was under the protection of the Holy Spirit. The seal of the Holy Spirit was real and bad teaching could not change that. Even though my story is much different from yours, my point is this: You are saved by the blood of Christ and you are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Trust you Lord to work things out and do not fear anyone who is doing the work of the enemy. May the Lord bless you, Phil |
