| Author | Message | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 111 Registered: 5-2007 |
Anyone seen this website: http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com/ It is by "progressive" Adventists but the telling thing is they still hold on to EGW as being "inspired" and used by God to start a "radical and prophetic" church movement. On the surface the progressives/liberals seem to be more tolerant and less legalistic than the traditionals but it seems they still hold on to EGW. At the beginning of my journey out of Adventism, I had thought I could stay in Adventism as a progressive/liberal Adventist and try to reform the church from within. But I now see where Adventism is rotten to the core and irreformable. The progressive Adventists may be slathering the pig with lipstick but it's still a pig and it still ain't very pretty. (Message edited by Reb on May 31, 2007) | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 34 Registered: 4-2007 |
Reb, As a SS teacher I've been trying to 'reform from within' for probably 20 of the 35 years as an SDA with zero effect. My wife and I were discussing the Gospel message and the Baptists. My comment was that while she may disagree with some aspects of their theology their grasp of salvation thru faith alone thru Jesus alone was unshakable BECAUSE they did not have any extra-biblical 'authority' to obscure it. Faithful (to the denomination) Adventists will never be able to fully comprehend the Gospel message while clinging to EGW. Of course the moment a person utterly rejects EGW as having any relevance he no longer IS an SDA. It's only when this takes place that the Gospel can be fully embraced. I still agitate the brethren when I teach but I've given up all hope of reaching any one. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 114 Registered: 5-2007 |
They removed me as an SS teacher and nearly disfellowshipped me for agitating last year. The SDA church you attend must be a lot more tolerant than the one I go to with my wife. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2007 |
Reb, I NEVER attack cherished beliefs. I just emphasize contrary truths with scripture. For example: I’ll never mention 1844 and the IJ instead I’ll say something like ‘isn’t it wonderful that we can claim salvation now, not some indefinite point in the future, I AM SAVED’ then I’ll get them to look up one of the many verses that support that statement. If anyone objects-which seldom happens-usually just blank looks- I just quietly tell them their argument is with the Author. As I said before, to no apparent effect. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 117 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hmmmmm maybe I should try that approach. I admit when I discovered the IJ and 1844 were false I pretty much came out and said so. Probably wasn't too smart. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2007 |
yep! Gotta sneak up on them or you're toast | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 38 Registered: 4-2007 |
(Message edited by jonvil on May 31, 2007) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 558 Registered: 6-2006  |
I like you John! I've been fretting a little about a relative who is the president of a travelling sanctuary. His beliefs are so far off the charts that even our SDA family thinks he's gone off his rocker. I like the idea of sharing the good news that actually contradicts his "cherished beliefs". I'm sure he'll freak out either way I state it, but if it comes up in the future I'll give it a try!  Leigh Anne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3718 Registered: 3-2004  |
You will need to do lots of praying Leigh Anne. I will put you on my prayer list. That will be a tough one. But God can handle it. Nothing is to tough for Him. Diana | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 559 Registered: 6-2006 |
Thank you Diana - you're so sweet. You bless me! I just keep praying for the walls to come tumblin' down. As zealous as he is for the SDA church, I believe he could be the same for the grace of Jesus, if he could only see it. With God all things are possible. Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5956 Registered: 12-2003  |
Leigh Anne, it does seem that, in general, the Adventists who are the most devout and zealous for living their Adventism with integrity are the most likely to capitulate when they finally see the truth. Their integrity pushes them to accept truth when they recognize it, so it seems. With continuing prayers for you and your in-laws, Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 560 Registered: 6-2006 |
Thank you Colleen! I used to think there was no hope. However after spending a year in here I can see all the possibilities! Especially after seeing the changes that are happening in my own little family. Thank you for all the prayers. I'll continue praying for FAF and you and Richard and Dale as well. Leigh Anne | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2007 |
Colleen wrote: ‘Leigh Anne, it does seem that, in general, the Adventists who are the most devout and zealous for living their Adventism with integrity are the most likely to capitulate when they finally see the truth. Their integrity pushes them to accept truth when they recognize it, so it seems. ONLY if they question the authenticity of the EGW claim to be ‘more than a prophet’ and thus the validity of her writings. I believe it is impossible to appreciate the plain truth of scripture while looking at it through the eyes of EGW. Eliminate her and comprehension will follow. Here’s the problem: ‘Adventists who are the most devout and zealous for living their Adventism with integrity’ would be the last persons to even question EGW. Thus you’ll find ‘historical’, ‘progressive’, ‘liberal’ Adventist ALL clinging to some degree to EGW. A devout Adventist without EGW would be an oxymoron oxymoron 1657, from Gk. oxymoron, noun use of neut. of oxymoros (adj.) "pointedly foolish," from oxys "sharp" (see acrid) + moros "stupid." Rhetorical figure by which contradictory terms are conjoined so as to give point to the statement or expression; the word itself is an illustration of the thing. Now often used loosely to mean "contradiction in terms." | ||
| Sara Registered user Username: Sara Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jonvil wrote: "Adventists who are the most devout and zealous for living their Adventism with integrity’ would be the last persons to even question EGW." Yes, except for the working of the Holy Spirit, and the prayers of the saints. I just quit reading Ellen White. It wasn't a conscious decision, it just happened. I know at some point I bought a Bible concordance, (Non-SDA)and started looking up Bible study questions using that. Looking back, I see that for years, when Iwould read a Bible passage that stumped me, and didn't fit into Adventist teachings, I would get this terrified feeling. Almost panic. For instance, a text saying that the seal of God was the promised Holy Spirit. I would think "WHAT!!!). I would read it several times, get a different translation, try to read it in a broader context, desperately looking for a way to make it fit. Then I would go get A SDA commentary, or Ellen White Book, and look up the text. Then I would breathe a sigh of relief when there appeared to be a plausible explanation. And if I didnt fully agree, I would just tell myself I would research it more later, and bury the question. That's embarrassing to admit now. Sara | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 120 Registered: 5-2007 |
EGW is the SDA church's raison d'etre. Without EGW, the SDA church cannot exist. That's why even the progressives still cling to her even but somewhat differently than the more tradtional SDAs do. I am glad I don't have to go tomorrow to the SDA church I attend with my wife. The sermon is going to be about, you guessed it, EGW! I will go to the SDB church tomorrow and hear about Jesus and the Gospel. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5958 Registered: 12-2003 |
JonVil, you are right. One can "see"only when one peers through a crack in the EGW filter. As Sara said, it is an act of the Holy Spirit when anyone begins to question Ellen or feel cognitive dissonance when they read Scripture. But I take hope from the fact that God woke all of us up! Which of us wanted to leave? And most of us weren't the "I can't do it anyway so I'll ignore it and do what I please" type of Adventist, either. We wanted it to "make sense". We wanted our beliefs to fit together logically and Biblically, and we struggled when they couldn't. Praise God He draws us to Himself! Colleen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 123 Registered: 5-2007 |
So true, Colleen. Early in my journey out of Adventism, I tried the "I can't do it anyway so I'll ignore it and do what I please" approach and it didn't work. I tried I'll just believe what I believe in my heart and let what they say in SS and sermons in the SDA church go in one ear and out the other. (My wife actually sleeps through most of the SDA sermons we attend). | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 40 Registered: 4-2007 |
SARA: ’Yes, except for the working of the Holy Spirit, and the prayers of the saints’ JOHN: ABSOLUTELY! God does not leave us to flounder alone. The mystery to me is why some would rather cling to cherished beliefs than heed the leading of the Spirit??? SARA: ’I just quit reading Ellen White. It wasn't a conscious decision, it just happened. I know at some point I bought a Bible concordance, (Non-SDA)and started looking up Bible study questions using that.’ JOHN: I bought a set of SDA commentaries and soon concluded they were worthless. It was at this point that I used exclusively ‘outside sources’ in my study of scripture. I had already stopped reading EGW-the 'testimonies'were so horrible I refused to read anything she wrote. SARA: Looking back, I see that for years, when Iwould read a Bible passage that stumped me, and didn't fit into Adventist teachings, I would get this terrified feeling. Almost panic. For instance, a text saying that the seal of God was the promised Holy Spirit. I would think "WHAT!!!). I would read it several times, get a different translation, try to read it in a broader context, desperately looking for a way to make it fit. Then I would go get A SDA commentary, or Ellen White Book, and look up the text. Then I would breathe a sigh of relief when there appeared to be a plausible explanation. And if I didnt fully agree, I would just tell myself I would research it more later, and bury the question. That's embarrassing to admit now. JOHN: Ha! I’m dumber than you are! (one up-man-ship) I joined the SDA without any previous church affiliation so I accepted EVERYTHING with my mind in neutral. The idea that I needed to test the validity of SDA theology never entered my mind. For an engineer who prided himself on his logic and ability to ‘connect the dots’ (well-I thought so) to look back and see how brain dead I was (my ears are burning) I wish I could say that all this happened quickly but it took years to get where I am today. Praise God for his leading! I wonder where I’ll be a year from now? | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 561 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hey, some of my friends here were lifelong, multi-generational SDA's, and now here they are! Colleen, I agree, Praise God He draws us to Himself! For any of you who haven't visited the home page, there are some wonderful stories of our family here who have left Adventism. Here's a link - http://www.formeradventist.com/stories.html Leigh Anne (Message edited by grace_alone on June 01, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5963 Registered: 12-2003 |
JonVil--don't feel bad. We ALL are in the same boat! One of the hardest things to swallow is realizing how (gulp!) stupid I was...I simply lived with things that made no sense. At the time, of course, it seemed reasonable, but it's hard to admit the depth of my deception and blindness. But guess what? We're all in the same boat! Praise God! And some of us are more able to row at various times than others, so we hold each other up and praise God for putting us in this boat together with Him! In a year--you will be praising God for where He has brought you! Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 812 Registered: 9-2006  |
You know, when I hear this I think of Paul and his gut wrenching testimony in Acts 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. Acts 22:5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished. Acts 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. Acts 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? Acts 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. In much the same way we all have had the light shine round about us. Derelicts we are mostly, Jesus came to save that was lost. Thank God for that light that he shone round about in my alcoholic and destructive stupor. Having almost completely destroyed my family. Derelict in every meaning of the word was what I was. destruction on every hand, yet the Holy Spirit has not one time condemned me for that past. And my character after he saved me would probably be appalling to you folks, a long hard road indeed but the king of glory has stuck by me through thick and thin, Oh what a God we serve, "Lift up your heads oh ye gates and the king of glory shall come in" I praise him tonight. River | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 177 Registered: 1-2006  |
Jonvil I feel so foolish. I think it is fair to say that there were moments even in my childhood when I sensed that something was deeply wrong with what I was hearing at home and in school and at church. It was like I was paralized, and when I just had to have better answers, I took a wrong turn and read deeply into Adventist literature, wrongly believing that people I thought I could trust were actually telling me the truth--or that they even knew the truth. It just took forever, but I'm so thankful now. My trust is in the Lord, and I have no questions about following Him as He led me out of Adventism. But yes, I'm still embarassed about it. I really believed it. I've telephoned people I witnessed to as an Adventist and have apologized. I led (preached) in a couple of SDA evangelistic series, and you can imagine how I feel now. I pray that God will keep those people. Bob (Message edited by bobj on June 02, 2007) | ||
| Sara Registered user Username: Sara Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2007 |
John and Bob, Well at least we have a leg up on humility... John your back and forth comparison actually made me laugh. It was good to laugh, intstead of feeling the shame. It could be a comic book. I did such a good job of convincing my Christian friends that Adventism was just another Christian religion, that now I am having to backtrack, and tell them the "rest of the story". I mentioned EGW the other day, and my friend's husband looked at me with this amazed look on his face. He kept saying , the Adventist Chruch had a prophet??? A prophet??? You never told me that! SDA's take this prophet seriously? How come I never know that, I know lots of Adventists? Oh boy, I felt stupid, and really I guess I need to confess my deliberate deception all those years. My old party line, "We are similar to Baptists, except for the state of the dead and the sabbath." I knew even then I was lying. Sara | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5975 Registered: 12-2003 |
Sara, great point. I remember the day we told our neighbors with whom we were weekly studying the New Testament that shameful fact. We had offered some "erudite" insight about what a passage might have meant, and they looked at us blankly and then Mel said, "Where do you find that in the Bible?" Richard and I were dumbstruck--both of us realizing that we had just committed an "Ellenism" without realizing it. I remember like it was yesterday. I looked at Richard and said, "We should tell them." Shamefacedly, Richard and I told our astonished neighbors that we had a prophet....etc.... Praise God He redeems everything we submit to Him! Colleen | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 563 Registered: 3-2001 |
Well Sara, I think my line was better. I remember as a kid that I would explain SDA's as "modern day Jews." Little did I know how close that was to the truth. Doug (Message edited by Doug222 on June 02, 2007) | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 179 Registered: 1-2006 |
Sara, I recently met a man who told me that years ago his former employers, a group of Adventist physicians, had been urging him to keep the Sabbath. He told me that he had even joined a Bible study class, until he asked the pastor if he could be saved if he didn't keep Saturday as Sabbath. The pastor thought about it for a moment . . . wavered a bit, thought about it a little more . . . and then said 'no.' Almost tricked by the lipstick! Bob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5979 Registered: 12-2003 |
Bob, what a story! I'm so thankful that the pastor actually told the man the truth! So many Adventists refuse to give a clear answer to that question, hoping to trick people into accepting the Sabbath. (My MIL and FIL were just here for their weekly visit. The subject of "grace" came up...they say we are, of course, saved by grace! Further, we HAVE security--as long as we REMAIN in His grace. if one didn't know what all that actually means, he'd be completely hoodwinked.) Colleen | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 48 Registered: 4-2007 |
Colleen wrote: '(My MIL and FIL were just here for their weekly visit. The subject of "grace" came up...they say we are, of course, saved by grace! Further, we HAVE security--as long as we REMAIN in His grace. if one didn't know what all that actually means, he'd be completely hoodwinked.)' The obvious question then would be: 'Gee! What do I DO to remain in God's grace?' Which leads to... (Message edited by jonvil on June 03, 2007) |
