Archive through June 09, 2007 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 6 » Ever Wonder Why » Archive through June 09, 2007 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02

Post Number: 37
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 8:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have often wondered why the Bible is so vague. Why so many things have been left to individual interpretations. Why so much confusion abounds.

I surmise it is intentional. That God permitted, allowed , intended , designed it as it is so that the scripture mysterys and understanding must be by way of The Holy Spirit alone. Otherwise, perhaps the Bible would not have survived the centuries.
Sometimes , I get so frustrated.
I believe that so much of these issues could have been expounded on in much more detail in scripture.
Perhaps, (as I am discovering) it is because we bring preconcieved notions to our readings.
Or we don't listen.
Like someone said recently, don't read topically, read contextualy. It is in fact the contextually method that had a lot to do with my sensing the SDA doctrine construct was just not right. Something was wrong.

I maintain this much.
I don't think you have to be an Einstien to understand scripture or to be a Christian. In fact , I often marvel how some of the simpler people I have met, seem to intuitively get it right the first time. They are spared this confusion. Like a child. They simply latch on and find peace of mind in Christ. Making my intellegence appear foolish.

Nature uses pain to tell us when something is not right. Hmmmmm ............
Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra

Post Number: 448
Registered: 10-2001


Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jim,

I think it is like a puzzle, the more pieces you put together, the more you can see the big picture. It's a process to knowing God more intimately.

How boring would it be otherwise?
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02

Post Number: 39
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra,

I am very much amazed how the word of God is constantly unfolding. How from day to day I see something for the first time even though I have read over it before.

My point is , The basics are not even safe from misunderstandings. It seems there are no absolutes. Depending on what group you talk to. You can undermine, spin or cancel everysingle precept in scripture. Go far enough and you find groups or People who will write thier own scriptures or others who invalidate scripture as a collection of tribal desert dwelling traditional stories.

The Bible is software for the mind.
I acknowledge it's varibles.
I guess I am still rubbing my bruises from realizing how long I have been caught in the snares, I feel like so much was for nothing, so much could have been avoided.
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 6009
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jim, I have had the very same question. Like Sabra, however, I'm finding that the more I ask God to teach me truth and to help me know Him, the more the pieces are fitting together.

The reason it seems vague and confusing so often is that we read the Bible with our own personal "presets" and worldview. As long as what we think to be reality is our framework for interpreting Scripture, we will be confused.

The more I read the Bible in context, whole chapters and books at a time, the more EVERYTHING I read in the Bible makes sense as a unified whole. When we allow God to shape our worldview and teach us, humbling our minds and education before Him, He reveals reality and truth.

I totally know that feeling of rubbing the bruises and feeling so "stupid". I've learned that the snares and deception, though, is part of what God uses to accomplish His will in our lives and to prepare us for the work he created in advance for us to do (Ephesians 2:10). God wastes nothing, and He redeems everything we submit to Him.

What you are learning as a result of UNlearning will yield huge dividends in knowing God, experiencing Him personally shaping your heart and mind, and understanding truth and reality with depth and perception you would not have had without this painful experience.

God is so faithful!
Colleen
Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra

Post Number: 450
Registered: 10-2001


Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know Jim,

I was thinking this morning on my way to work, how all of my "regrets" turned out in my life.

If not for them I would not be where I am now.

It is true, at first you feel like you have lost so much but it is amazing how God works it all out! I wouldn't trade one thing for where I am now and you will get there too, just keep pressing forward.
River
Registered user
Username: River

Post Number: 848
Registered: 9-2006


Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra and Colleen, great stuff, I am fast learning that I have no future nor past as far as this world is concerned, what counts is presence.
River
Bigal
Registered user
Username: Bigal

Post Number: 65
Registered: 9-2006


Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I second Sabra's words. If it took 40 years for me to arrive at this place I am currently in then so be it. Either God needed me to take this journey or he kept making it possible for me to accept Him at every opportunity. Meaning, I probably rejected His invitation on many occasions along the journey. I thank God for His faithfulness with me.

Alan
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1093
Registered: 4-2000


Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 8:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My wife Sylvia was talking with an old Catholic friend this evening in her home. The Catholic lady felt that sincere terrorists who do evil for their supposedly "good cause" will be saved. Sadly, this aberrant idea is akin to the SDA view that God will somehow save all the heathen if they simply live up to the "light" they have.

Sylvia tried to encourage her Catholic friend to read the Bible daily. However, she seemed to lack any desire for reading God's Word. Sylvia carefully reviewed her busy schedule with her, but the lady still had an excuse for every moment of her day--not even enough time for reading one verse daily. Truly, the historic maxim of "regeneration precedes faith" comes to light here. We cannot choose what we do not desire.

On another occasion, Sylvia encouraged the same friend to personally pray to Jesus. Her Catholic friend thought that would be a good idea. So, the next time my wife was at her house, she was watching TV and visiting with my wife while playing with her rosary beads. Finally, she got tired of counting and exclaimed, "This is enough praying for today," and she abruptly put the rosary back on the end table. Apparently, she considers praying as simply another physical or tangible thing to do. Somehow the concept of having a personal relationship or friendship with Jesus seemed very hazy and remote to her. Does this story remind you of another religious group that specializes in many visible, noticeable things to do?

Dennis Fischer
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 6014
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, what an interesting window into a very familiar experience—but with different details.

You are right; we absolutely cannot choose what we do not desire. Only God can make our hearts able to say Yes to Him. Even our faith is from Him. It's not even a spark in our hearts since by nature we are objects of wrath.

Only when God makes us alive do we finally have the ability to choose. Before that, we are dead in sin.

Praise Him!
Colleen
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02

Post Number: 42
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 7:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In a related matter.

Scripture and insights have often stated taht the purpose of trials are meant to build up and strengthen, to gain experience etc.

But , in my own life, many of the trials ended up creating stress and scars, fears, avoidance, withdraw, cocooning. The pattern was , if it hurts, avoid it.
When I was injured in accidents, it was a blow to my sense of security, a trauma. Why did God allow this to happen? When my wife left, same reaction.

In the years gone by. Each crisis brought a renewed effort to demonstrate religon, Gain God's approval, Gain His protection so I could avoid being hurt , injured or insecure.
This dynamic in my thinking has been a byproduct of SDA constructs and my own logic thinking.
To know what is happening, to know why, does not automatically free one from the pattern.
The key out requires reasoning, resolution, correction and practice.

So, my question forks into this:
How does one move towards a profit from a trial and gain strength from it rather than trauma and continuing injury as has often been my reality?
I hope this question is not off the wall.
It really does have a lot to do with how I have learned to think. It is part of that SDA midset, yet I shall not blame SDA. I have to make this correction myself without blame.
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj

Post Number: 197
Registered: 1-2006


Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 7:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jim

There is a book by Larry Crabb entitled Shattered Dreams that deals with some issues related to pain's role in our growth. I've loaned it to several freinds in the last couple years. There's a chapter entitled "A Strange Wedding Toast" that I thought was particularly in helpful.
Bob
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil

Post Number: 55
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is how I maintain my perspective during trials

I find my strength through trust in God:

(1) I am utterly convinced of the goodness of God – God DIED for ME!!!

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

(2) I live with the absolute assurance of salvation – God PROMISED!!!

Act 2:21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Tit 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

With these beliefs always foremost in my mind I remind myself that I’m not in heaven (YET!), but
in a sin-sick world where bad things happen to good people.

Rom 14:8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.


I once heard a pastor say ‘God is in the cancer’. NO! NO! NO! The SIN that grips this world is in the cancer and in all the tragedies that befall us. God is NOT the author of sin, Satan is. Directly or indirectly Satan is the cause of all our sorrows. The wonderful news is that God has rescued us from the sin within us so that we no longer contribute to those sorrows.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


The better news is that God is going to return and rescue us from the sin (and ALL the sorrows) of the world.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Meanwhile we continue to live in this sin-contaminated world beset by disease and automobile accidents and broken relationships but with an eager expectation of that day when Jesus will come in glory to take us home.

Rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 6016
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good question, Jim. For me the process of having trials become venues of slow growth instead of their being occasions of hardening or emotional/psychological "splitting" and self-defense has been directly related to learning to trust God.

I have realized that if I hide from pain, I will also dull myself to joy. I can't "stuff" my shock and fear and anger and hurt without also "stuffing" my ability to laugh, to feel love and to experience pleasure even in the beauty of sunrise, of music, of the fragrance of gardenias and the taste of fresh strawberries, etc.

The secret, though, is trusting that Jesus is walking with me through the pain. I remember a moment a few years ago that "turned the light on" in my head, and since that moment, my experience of God's relentless consistency and presence has increased.

The moment was a Sunday morning class at Trinity church called "Walk Through the Old Testament" taught by Eizabeth Inrig. I don't even remember exactly what we were discussing that morning, but I remember her saying, "God is the ultmate value in the universe—not the life of a child or even the saving of nations, but the glory of God Himself."

I hardly knew how to think about that, but i was riveted to those words, and my entire worldview began to shift that day. I had always believed (based on my Adventist heritage) that creatures' free will was the ultimate value in the universe. God would "humble" Himself to allow demons and humans to put Him on trial if we needed to understand His ways. God would nevr intervene or interfere with our choices or circumstances if our freedom would in any way be impinged. In fact, our freedom was so important that we could delay His will. Why, Jesus would have come long ago if we had been more diligent in spreading the gospel to the whole world and had "finished the work".

It had never dawned on me before that day that—in spite of Jesus' words that the Father knows the hour of His return—we hadn't prevented Jesus from coming back. His plans and hopes were thwarted because of our disobedience, and to preserve our free will, He was willing to be thwarted in order to honor our "freedom".

There is NOTHING in the Bible to suggest that what happens to us is going on in order to give Satan his freedom or to give us ours. In fact, the Bible teaches exactly the opposite. God is in charge of everything, and even evil cannot function apart from God's permission.

Job never knew why he suffered. Satan "caused" Job's suffering, to be sure, but it came through God's permission. Satan was simply not allowed to do anything God did not permit.

When we are in Christ, when we are born again and His adopted sons and daughters, what happens to us is happening, in a sense, to Jesus, because we are His body in the world, and His Spirit resides in us. In this world, we quite literally "take the arrows" for Christ. " Hebrews 12:1-12 is very clear that when we are sons, we are disciplined. If we are not true sons, we are not disciplined. No one likes discipline, yet it produces a harvest of righteousness.

2 Corinthians 12:7-10 has Paul explaining that, in order to keep him from being proud of the things God had shown him which he was not permitted to tell, "there was given me a thornn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me."

Notice that? God gave him whatever this persistent, unresolvd torment was--but it was "a messenger of Satan". In other words, God allowed Satan to harass him, to "torture" him in some way. Yet this was not sadistic. Here's what Paul says, "Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me, But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient or you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.…That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficuties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

We suffer in order to learn to trust God. And God redeems this suffering and uses it as strength with which we, then comfort other people (2 Cor 1:3-7).

God is the ultimate value in the universe, and He wants to be intimate with us. That is why He sent Jesus. God sent Himself to us to take our sin and to give us His life. Jesus has entered into a marriage covenant with us, and we are betrothed to Him. He takes all of our pain and sin and brokenness, and He gives us all of His righteousness and riches and glory—and His promise that all this will happen is the Holy Spirit who has connected our formerly dead spirits to Him forever.

So when we suffer, our response is to be submission to Jesus, not struggle to "fix" it. Often what God asks us to do as we submit is to recognize our own attitudes of control, resentment, and the feeling of our "rights" being trampled. We have no rights except the right to become the sons of God (John 1:12).

Natural humanity has no "rights" except to die. We are born into the domain of darknes ( Col 1:13). Only in Christ are we made alive. In Him we share His inheritance. As His body we are for His glory. As His children we are to worship Him, regardless of whether we are in trials or times of rest.

On a practical level, I have learned that I have to pray that God will teach me the truth. I pray to see as He sees, to know as He knows, and to love as He loves. I pray that He will give me His wisdom and the mind of Christ, and I thank Him for what He is teaching me and doing both in me and in my circumstances and in my loved ones that I cannot see.

Growing from pain means being willing to walk through the pain instead of avoiding it, and it means submitting to the Lord Jesus and asking Him to be all I need.

I don't have this all "figured out". But I am learning that He is faithful, and that I survive better when I ask Jesus to glorify Himself through whatever I am going through.

Colleen
Marysroses
Registered user
Username: Marysroses

Post Number: 21
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

_________

My wife Sylvia was talking with an old Catholic friend this evening in her home......
_________

Hi Dennis and all,

I felt moved by this post to share something of my personal experience. Before I do, I'd like to say that this will not be a common thing for me to do, as far as commenting directly about my own beliefs. I am not offended by your post, or other similar ones, I joined this forum familiar with the perspective of most posters, and I know I will continue to see these kinds of things now and then and thats ok. I also did not join this forum with the intention or desire to debate doctrines or issues having to do with my faith, this isn't an appropriate place to do that even if I was inclined to do so (I'm not anyway). I have appreciated everyone here and their support in dealing with my SDA past and SDA relatives. I have been blessed by reading about everyone's experiences and want to continue to feel welcome here.

that said..

I really felt for that poor lady! I have been in her shoes. Of course I do not know her or what was in her mind, but I have acted exactly the same way when experiencing exactly the same kind of 'encouragement'. I get the feeling even sometimes now on this forum; that prompted me in the past to respond in a disinterested or vague way. Hopefully I have learned better ways of responding. The feeling though, is intimidation. Its easier to deflect the conversation with disinterest or vagueness, than find ways to bridge the gap we can feel.

As Catholics, we have many differences in beliefs from our protestant brothers and sisters. We also have things we share, a belief in God's goodness, That He is our Creator, in the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, That Jesus is truly God and truly Man, that He was born of a virgin and died for our sins. That He conquered death and rose again. That He will come again someday for His people. (I don't want to quibble about the details, but we can probably agree we do have some beliefs in common.)

What I did not have in the past, and what I still fumble with, is some kind of adequate vocabulary to communicate my beliefs and experiences to my protestant brothers and sisters. I had fear that in choosing inadequate words that would be misunderstood, I'd just get myself deeper into a conversation I wasn't comfortable with anyway.

(this post is starting to feel that way..... hmm... oh well, I'm going to try anyway.... please be patient with me)

A couple of my personal experiences....

I don't know that lady, but for me, when quizzed about daily bible reading, I'd dissemble rather than try to explain that because I was attending daily mass, every day I heard readings (and a homily on them) from the Old Testament, the Epistles, and the Gospels. DAILY! (Because readings are on a cycle, if a person attends mass daily for 3 years, they will hear about 95% of the bible read aloud, then the cycle begins again.) Does hearing 'count' as reading? I don't know. Our way of worship originated when few people could read.

Another question that gets a fuzzy responses... do I pray to Jesus personally... Do I know Jesus as my personal savior....

This is where vocabulary is so difficult. There are so many more forms of prayer in Catholicism. Many protestants are not usually familiar with some of them. Of course I pray to Jesus, directly. Thats one way. We also have formal prayers (the kind you memorize) directed to Jesus. We also pray to Jesus as we experience him in the Eucharist (communion). We also pray to Jesus as we think of him in symbolic ways unique to Catholicism such as his Sacred Heart. The Sacred Heart is his Divine Love.. God is Love.. nothing unscriptural about that, (Love was often portrayed as fire in medieval art) but, now, HOW do I explain THAT? I'm not even going to try. better to deflect the conversation.

Do I know Jesus as my personal savior? I can absolutely answer this question YES! Why wouldn't I say that to someone I don't know that asks? These days, I do. In the past, I wouldn't. why not? For the simple reason that while it is true, it can definitely leave a wrong impression. The vocabulary again. That way of asking, and way of affirming my confidence that Jesus is indeed MY savior, that I do know him and can depend on him uses words that carry a lot of 'baggage' for those of us on the other side of the Tiber river from you guys.

Do those words mean exactly the same thing to me as they do to the asker? Probably not, which is one reason I always avoided a simple 'Yes'. Then I noticed, they don't always mean EXACTLY the same thing to various groups of protestants that use them, either. I do believe in Jesus and that I have a personal relationship with him, not dependent on externals. I do believe that by his death we are reconciled to God. I believe that God's grace is freely offered, and there is nothing I can do to earn it. There is nothing in these statements contrary to the Catholic faith, either. At times though, I have felt that saying yes to that question was a denial of my faith, something I would never do, not because the statement contradicted my faith, but because I was afraid of being misunderstood.

Do I disagree with the idea of eternal security? yes, but do I think that I have to earn my salvation with works? No. Do I worry about my salvation and feel insecure? As an Adventist, yea, all the time, as a Catholic, no.

So much can be bound up in a few words.... How do I as a Catholic communicate my Love for Jesus and JOY to fellow Christians who sometimes missunderstand us so much?

Are there Catholics who go through the motions caring little about God? of course, but isn't that true of some people anywhere they claim church membership?

MarysRoses
Stevendi
Registered user
Username: Stevendi

Post Number: 124
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 6:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Marysroses,

I have so many Catholic friends who have taught me about quiet and lifelong faith in God. Yes, some seem to have more faith in their Church than a personal faith in Christ (so do a lot of other churches), but I believe God draws us to Himself in as many ways as there are of us. As ex-SDA, I could not personally join up with any denomination that insists on more than a "supporting authority", but the Word does say that there is one body of Christ, that there are many parts that serve many services to God. How do you ..."as a Catholic communicate (your) love for Jesus and JOY to fellow Christians..."? Do what the rest of your Christian brothers and sisters do or at least should be doing - talk about your Jesus and what He does for you, what He means to you personally.

Good Catholic people have been the recipients of a lot of unfair judgement, criticism and mistrust. We can all live in Christ and with each other in spite of doctrinal differences, those nonessentials that serve to separate us from one another. Does not the enemy know that he can use religious differences to keep us apart and from sharing our spiritual journeys - the very thing that Jesus wants us to do to encourage each other in His grace,mercy, love and most of all His holiness, not ours? We all have the same Saviour. Let us talk about THAT.

Your Brother in Christ,

steve
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02

Post Number: 46
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jonvil, Colleen, River, Thank You.

It occurred to me last night that I do not deserve anything but loss and suffering because of my sins, my past , bad choices , willfull disobedience, pleasure seeking , on and on.....

Yes , I see others who seem to get away with any and all behaviour with impunity.

I see others who have confidence, health and strengths that allow them to revel in pleasures and even meet challenges that we all face with out so much as a blip of discomfort.

Then I look at myself, I sometimes feel beat down, broken spirited, I reap my sowing, I am weakend by my suffering and fears. Somehow I sense that a dynamic is inverted and I should be climbing out of this beat down feeling.
My separation was the worse thing I ever experienced. The emotions of abandonment and rejection in the face of my problems seemed to me to be even more cruelty.

But God has shown me mercy, pushed me beyond what I thought I was capable of. Hope would almost be lost and then on the new day, something out of the blue would revive my soul.
But the battle is ongoing. So much to keep learning. Much to overcome. Tasks to be accomplished. Things to learn.

I feel like a spoiled child. I saw how Paris Hilton was hauled away crying. I felt sorry for her. She is a sinner who just had the props kicked out from her life. I can imagine the mindset she is experiencing....And,yes , that cruelty factor as the media and self righteous talking heads make sport of her loss. As if to say , it's ok to revel in the losses of others.
She has reaped consequences.

So, in this way, I am ashamed of myself when I moan and groan about woe is me.
God has been good to me and thousand times. He has rescued me over and over.

Yes it is about trust.

I have a heavily marked Bible. (Years of Topical study) I almost feel like I need to buy a new Bible jsut to help me read contexually.

This morning I was reading in ACT with a contexual mindset. As a story line.
Amazing, as if I had read it for the first time !!! I am looking forward to see how it turns out ! It is a new communication when read as a whole.

MaryRoses,
I was a Catholic till I was recruited by Dale Brussett at the age of 18. I am 52 now.
I attended Catholic schools in Louisville KY thru grade 4. But we moved to FL, my mother remarried and I drifted after that. Catholic in name only. Baptist mother. So church attendance stopped for years. A SDA Aunt invited us to teh Dale Brusett series and it was mesmerizing and I felt I had found the truth. That begun my entrapment. Tried for decades to be a good SDA.
You know the story............

I think back, I recall how I felt at peace in the Catholic Church. How it was bigger than me.
In Louisville they had the classic stately churches, tall marble pillars, paintings, stain glass, statues, Priests and Nuns. I felt like I was safe.
My wife went back to her Catholic church a year or so now.
I have thought about it. But the idea of confessing my sins to a priest as a mediator is a hard idea to get past.
That said, I have always respected the Catholics. Still do.
Catholics make good SDA, but SDA's make poor Catholics. (I think)
But I miss being a Catholic if for only that sense of things being so settled and so much bigger than me.
I just cannot see myself going back unless I am going with a conviction and that Christ is first.

This is the same issue I have with all churches as I continue to search for a Church. I am no longer willing to be compelled by any doctrine other than what Christ leads me to see and understand. I will not accept a teaching by virtue of tradition or pressure from a group.
Don't get me wrong. I respect the authority of all clergy positions and the Churchs. But this is about my personal walk with Christ.

I miss being safe. I miss the Catholic paternal ambiance sp , the incense, the beauty.
If only life were simpler...........
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 6019
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jim said, "I miss being safe."

That, Jim, is what we all experience, I believe, as we see everything we thought was "real" disappearing and falling apart around us. I SO relate to that statement.

The great paradox of TRUTH is that everything we physically see and touch is fading away and destined to perish. The only things that last are the unseen things of God. That is the miracle of our new birth: the unseen God of Creation indwells us and gives us hope and a future.

Eternity and safety and permanence and that unflinching, protective care of a Father really is ours only when we are in Christ. The reassurance of Jesus and the certainty of being God's true child (Romans 8:14-18) becomes more and more real as I submit my control and clutching to Him. If I allow Him to loosen my tight grip on everything I cherish, I find that He gives me more safety, more comfort, more support and even tangible love through others also alive in Him that I ever would even have imagined if I were designing my own life.

God your Father now holds you, Jim. He is more secure, more protective, more hope-full than any tangible institution or human relationship. And when we are in Him, even our human relationships finally have the possibility of being "greater than the sum of the parts." The living God makes us alive and hides us in Himself. We are more secure than we have ever been, even though our tangible world crumbles.

Jesus wastes nothing, and He redeems everything we submit to Him. Praise Him!

Colleen
Olga
Registered user
Username: Olga

Post Number: 66
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm quoting you JIm: "In fact , I often marvel how some of the simpler people I have met, seem to intuitively get it right the first time. They are spared this confusion. Like a child. They simply latch on and find peace of mind in Christ. Making my intellegence appear foolish. "

I just want to share my experience this past week....

My 3 children have just finished a week of Vacation Bible School at the Methodist church we've been visiting. I volunteered for part of the time and it was wonderful...we did the same last year but this time it seemed different. The last 3 days, God has touched me through my children's experience. My oldest who didn't feel like singing at first won't stop singing when around me. The other day I was checking e-mail and the middle child came in singing the words: "Jesus, Lamb of God, worthy is Your Name..." it caught me off guard and I bursted into tears right in front of him! He didn't say anything and kept singing; he left and all I could say was one of the themes the kids have been learning: "God is Real!" We got caught in quite stormy and freaky weather on all way back home yesterday, and again, my middle child was reassuring his 4-year old sister not to worry about the weather because: "God is Real, He's AWesome and He's always with us..." Everytime I hear them sing now and dance to the songs they've learned, all I seem to be able to do is cry and thank God at the same time for being so Real to me and my children and for meeting us right where we are. I recognize God's answers and his leading as I deal with my children. God uses them to teach me these simple lessons (it is good they don't have any of the SDA baggage....they just get Jesus and to them His name is awesome, real, and just a happy spot in their lives).

I hope what I wrote makes some sense! it's just I'm thrilled when these things happen as they confirm to me how real God is, how simple the Good News is and how He does care about every detail of our lives...our part is to really give it all to Him as Colleen always reminds us.

Olga
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris

Post Number: 1313
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Marysroses,

I felt compelled to respond to your very thoughtful and thought provoking post with a bit of my own personal experience. A significant part of my transition out of Adventism was facilitated by going to work for a Catholic healthcare organization. Up until that time I had been completely insolated within an Adventist culture and school system. The Catholic believers I encountered in my job were my first real contacts with believers outside of Adventism. The experience blew me away. These were not people who were planning how to hunt me down and kill me at the end of time. These were people who were passionate about carrying on the work of Christ by caring for the poor and sick.

For the first time I saw biblical values being lived out in an institutional setting. The posted core values of the hospital formed the acronym C.H.R.I.S.T., but more importantly these Christ centered values were lived out in daily practice. I saw this not only in the way that we treated our patients, but in the way that I was treated. My boss and his wife were well aware that I was an Adventist. They were also well aware that Adventism was on a list, put out by the local of Diocese, of groups that are actively hostile to Catholicism. And yet, when my wife was on total bed rest during her second pregnancy, it was not the SDAs, in the SDA ghetto that we lived in, who came to care for my family. It was my boss and his wife who came to care for our older child and bring us meals. Why did they do this? The answer is, “Because that is what Christ would do.”

Because of my personal experiences with the incredible practical love of Christ being demonstrated through Catholic believers, my perceptions of Catholicism have dramatically changed. Do I agree with all of Roman Catholic theology? On the basis of scripture my answer has to be a resounding, “No”. Do I believe that at certain points Roman Catholicism contradicts the essentials of biblically based Christian faith? My answer must be, “Yes” (especially pertaining to salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone). But here is how my perception has radically changed: I now see Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism as branches arising from the same tree with the same roots. In contrast, I see groups such as Adventism as illegitimate shoots not connected to the same roots.

Despite my strong disagreement with many aspects of Catholic theology, I now believe that we Protestants have more in common with Roman Catholicism than we do with groups such as SDA, LDS, and JWs who have historically denied or corrupted the very nature of God. For this reason, I now embrace many individual Roman Catholics as brothers and sisters in Christ. I know this statement will probably be controversial with many on this forum and I understand why. Be that as it may, I cannot deny that the Spirit of Christ is being lived out in a very visible way by many of the people that I work with. I am learning each day from my co-workers and someday I sincerely hope that the love of Christ will be lived out in my life in the practical way that I see it being lived out in their life.

Despite our difference, I do think that there are things that we can learn from each other. If others on this forum believe that I have made grave errors, I sincerely solicit their feedback. However, as I stand now, I feel a certain solidarity with many of my Catholic brothers and sisters. I pray that they will come to truly understand the nature of real grace, but I applaud them in their sincere desire to serve Christ in very practical ways.

Chris
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 3752
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After I decided not to be re baptized into the SDA church I got a job doing home health with the local RCC hospital. I have not worked for nicer people. I also did PRN work. One day I went in to treat a patient and she was crying. I asked her what the problem was and she told me she had just found out that her husband had been admitted to the same hospital. I went to the nurses station. On of the female RCC chaplains was there so I told her about the lady and she went in to see her and talk to her. I met some lovely Christian people there.
Diana

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration