| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2007 |
I know the SDA position on Hell. Is there a concise study on this available. I find it difficult to think Hell is eternal as in being immortal and burning forever. It is so out of balance in fathoming a short life of sin vs an eternity of punishment. I am not convinced hell is eternal other than its results are eternal or permanent. | ||
| Richardtinker Board Administrator Username: Richardtinker Post Number: 81 Registered: 4-1999  |
Hi Jim, Yesterday our pastor preached a powerful sermon on hell. He is going through the Gospel of Mark and preached on Mark 9:42-50. You can view the sermon at http://www.trinityonline.org/cgi-bin/MediaList.cgi?section= Richard | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2007 |
http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php Please see the above link. Richard, I have pondered both positions. I must say , I am convinced that Hell is NOT eternal. I remain so. The above link , especially the conclusions spell out much of my own thinking. I cannot concieve of a Loving , just God as being willing to apply a unending conscious pain punishment. I have not closed my mind on this one. But nothing I have seen so far suggests otherwise. I cannot access audio links. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6036 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, one of the problems with the article on the link above is that it assumes "eternal life" and "eternal death" have to do with consciousness. Nowhere does the Bible suggest that death means non-existence. Non-existence would be never to have existed in the first place. This issue is clouded by our (I say "our" to indicate those of us who were Adventist) being taught that spirit = breath. We learned that humans were physical, not possessed of something spiritual that transcended the physical. John 4:24 says that "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." John 3:5-6 says that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. "Flesh gives birth to flesh, and spirit gives birth to spirit." In other words, we have spirits which are different from our flesh--our brains being firmly connected to our flesh! Colossians 1:13 tells us that we were born into the domain of darkness, but God has transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son. Obviously, this birth and transfer is not referring to our physical bodies. We are still unglorified, unresurrected humans. What marks us, however, is the condition of our spirits. We are either spiritually dead, by nature objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), or alive and hidden with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3). Our bodies remain here within time on earth. Our bodies are still decaying, waiting for the creation to be released from its bondage to decay (Romans 8:18-21). Being spiritually dead does not mean our spirits do not exist. Before people are born again, their spirits exist—they're just slaves to evil (Ephesians 2:1-3). After we are born again, we are released from our spiritual bondage to evil and made alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:4-6). Our spirits do not depend upon our bodies for existence any more than heavenly spirits (angels) depend upon bodies (see Hebrews 1:14). It is our spirits that make us in the image of God. God is Spirit—and our spirits, that part of us that does not depend upon our bodies for existence—are the parts of us that reflect God's image. Spirits are what set us apart from animals. People who are not born again have spirits—but they are dead spirits, and those spirits do not cease to exist at death any more than do the spirits of the born again. In his sermon on Sunday Gary mentioned Matthew 10:28: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." He pointed out that the word for "destroy" is the same word used to describe wineskins when new wine is poured into old wineskins. The new wine will "destroy" the wineskins by causing them to burst. He explained that those wineskins do not cease to exist: they simply cease to have a function. They now exist as pieces of leather decimated by the expanding wine which caused them to burst. They no longer can function as wineskins nor do they resemble our knowledge of wineskins—but they are not annhilated. Their substance still exists. A person destroyed in hell will be experiencing eternal death—but nowhere does the Bible define death as non-existence. Ecclesiastes 9:5 says "the dead know not anything", and to be sure, their physical bodies die. This passage, however, was not written as a statement of propositional truth. It is not from a didactic passage. It is part of a description of the hopelessness of life lived apart from God. To a person far from God, death is hopeless—and it is, to be sure, the end of a spiritually dead person's ability to contribute meaningfully and to respond to the Holy Spirit's wooing. The Bible is clear that to reject God's Son is an egregious decision with eternal consequences. It is also clear (see Revelation 20) that the wicked are resurrected for their final punishment. Not only their dead spirits but also their bodies will suffer the consequences of sin. And nowhere does the Bible suggest that death means non-existence. To suffer in hell is NOT life. It is a straw-man argument to make this assumption. Life is only possible as a gift from God. Only in Christ does a person have life. Even on this earth people do not have life if they do not have Christ. We cannot conclude that a "loving God" would not punish people in hell. On the contrary, the Bible is very clear that we ALL deserve death...and death means being unable to have relationship with God. Because of the serious implications of death, God "left the sins committed beforehand unpunished" in order to come Himself and be both the one who justifies us and also be be the Justifier. Jesus died in order to demonstrate His justice (Romans 3:25-26). The consequences of rejecting the Source of Life, when we have been made in God's image with spirits which are immortal—the essence of our likeness to God which sets us completely apart from animals—must be as serious as the benefits of accepting this offer of life. We cannot walk away from God without experiencing ulimtate suffering. This fact is why Jesus died. He died to save us NOT from non-exitence—that would not be suffering. He died and rose again to save us from eternal suffering. He died to give us life—which is ONLY possible in Christ. Apart from Christ we are dead, whether we are spiritiually dead now within time or spiritually dead when we enter eternity. Death is not defined by existence. It is defined by being unconnected to God. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1867 Registered: 10-2004  |
Richard, thanks for the link. I watched the sermon last night, and it was great! Jim, I highly recommend the (fairly short) book The Problems of the Afterlife: What Destiny Awaits Unbelievers? by Samuel Fisk. It can be purchased at exadventist.com's store for only $2.95. As Colleen said, the important thing to realize is that the Biblical definition for "death" is not "non-existence" but is "separation." Spiritual death is our spirit being separated from God. Eternal life is being connected to God eternally (starting with our spirits right now), and eternal death is being separated from God eternally. Jim, you wrote: "It is so out of balance in fathoming a short life of sin vs an eternity of punishment." That would be our human logic, but Jesus tells us that "whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" (Mark 3:29 NASB). Jesus says that they are not guilty of a temporal sin--but, rather He says that they are "guilty of an ETERNAL sin" which requires "ETERNAL punishment" (Matthew 25:46). Also, when we sin, we are sinning against an infinite God. It is not some light thing deserving of light, temporal punishment. You can be sure that Hell is far worse than what anyone experiences on this earth. If not, then the Christian martyrs who were burned alive suffered Hell themselves and Jesus' death saved them from nothing! Jeremy | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 52 Registered: 5-2007 |
I read what both of you wrote. Thank You The arguments presented depend upon redifining definitions and context. I am not being closed minded. But I do not agree with any of these conclusions or definitions. I just don't see it. Stretching way too far in reasonings, for me to hang on. This is twisted to my understanding of our English language. Please provide scripture that defines these terms of existance vs non existance. This subject is important. It defines our perception of God. A default to this is to invalidate all religon. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1868 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jim, Ephesians 2 says:
Paul says that we were dead--but we certainly were not non-existent. We very much existed. And in Romans 6, Paul says we died to sin and are alive to God. Before we were saved, we were dead to God but very much alive to sin. So being spiritually dead (having a dead spirit) does not mean that we are non-existent. Also, with words such as "destroy" or "destruction," we must use the Bible's own definition of those words. First of all, even in English the word "destroy" does not necessarily mean to annihilate. And the Greek word that is translated "destroy" (Matthew 10:28) or "perish" (John 3:16), etc., in the New Testament does not necessarily mean annihilation. This Greek word, apollumi, can simply mean to render useless. This same Greek word is used in Matthew 9:17, Mark 2:22 and Luke 5:37, where Jesus says that if you put new wine into old wineskins, the wineskins will burst and be ruined/perish. The wineskins obviously are not annihilated, only rendered useless. The same Greek word is even used to speak of living people!:
The word apollumi is also used to speak of the prodigal son. Was he annihilated or only "lost"? Again, let's let the Bible itself define for us what it means by "destruction" as it relates to the lost. In Revelation 17, we read the following:
So here we see that the beast will go to "destruction." The Greek word used here for "destruction" is apoleia, the noun form of the verb apollumi ("destroy"), discussed above. And if we keep reading in Revelation, we will find out exactly what the definition is of that "destruction" that the beast must face. The next mention of the beast after verse 17 of chapter 17, is in chapter 19 verses 19-20:
So here, we are told that the beast (and the false prophet) are thrown alive into the lake of fire. And in the next chapter, after one thousand years have passed, we read:
Notice that after one thousand years of being in the lake of fire, the beast and the false prophet are still alive, and that they will be "tormented day and night forever and ever"! So, now we finally have the exact definition for the "destruction" mentioned in Revelation 17. According to Revelation, "destruction" means being "tormented day and night forever and ever" in the lake of fire. You can't get any clearer than that. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 12, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6037 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, in Matthew 25:46 Jesus says, "Then they [the wicked] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." The Greek word for "eternal" in both cases is the same. These statements are parallel. If we're going to take language seriously, then we have to say that both the punishment and the life are "eternal". If the punishment is eternal—only as long as something lasts (which the text does not say)—then we have to assume also that the eternal life could also have a cut-off point. It is interesting that Jesus is the one who said this, and He didn't say merely that they go to eternal death. He said "eternal punishment". We also have to conclude that Jesus intentionally used the word "punishment" which is a noun naming something active, not passive. Punishment does not "happen"; it is inflicted, and it is a consequence of disobedience. Non-existence is not punishment. Also, regarding "life": Genesis 2:17 God told Adam, "But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." God cannot lie, nor does the Bible lie. So what died when Adam and Eve ate that fruit? We were taught that in that day they began to die...but the God clearly says when they ate it, they would die. The subsequent details of the story show that something DID die...they were no longer comfortable in the presence of God. They experienced fear and shame; their spirits died—yet they did not cease to exist that day. They were now the living dead, as we are when we are born. Revelation 19:20-21 says, "But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf.…The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider onthe horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh." Now look at Revelation 20:10. "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Then, Revelation 20:11-15 describes the second resurrection when the wicked are raised for final judgment. The sea and death and Hades give up their dead, and each person is judged. "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Now go back to 2 Corinthians 5:1-10. This passage describes the death of a believer. Notice that Paul refers to "we", or "us", being housed in earthly tents which will be destroyed. Verse 2 explains that we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly—as opposed to earthly—dwelling because when our earthly tent is destroyed, we will be "unclothed". We do not want to be found naked, so we long for our heavenly dwelling. Further, he says that as long as we are in this earthly tent, we are away from the Lord. The Holy Spirit is given to us as a guarantee that we will one day be clothed with our heavenly dwelling. In spite of this desire not to be "unclothed", however, "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please Him whether we are at home in the body or away from it" (v. 8-9). This passage is clear that the "first death" is a separation of the spirit from the body. When our earthly tent dies, our spirits are "unclothed", and if we are alive in Christ, our spirits are with the Lord. We remain in some way not fully explained in Jesus until we are given resurrection bodies. Death as we know it is the separation of the body and the spirit. The texts above from Revelation show that death and Hades (commonly understood to be "the place of the dead") are thrown, at the end of all we know, into the lake of fire "which is the second death". This time when death is thrown into the lake of fire is when death as we know it is destroyed, and it occurs after the second resurrection. The wicked dead are resurrected to experience their final punishment which, according to Jesus, is eternal. After all the wicked are raised to life, death—the temporary separation of body and spirit which Jesus called "sleep"—is destroyed. Never again will humanity experience the dissolution of its physical body, thus separating body from spirit. Notice also in the Revelation 19:20-21 text quoted above that the beast and the false prophet are thrown "alive" into the lake of fire. The rest of the wicked they had deceived were killed--their bodies ceased to be alive, and their spirits were separated from them. Notice that in Revelation 20 the devil was thrown into the lake of fire at the end of the millennium, where the beast and the false prophet had been since 1,000 years before, and "they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." IOW, the beast and false prophet are still suffering in that lake of fire when the devil is finally thrown in 1,000 years later—and they will all suffer "for ever and ever". Notice at the end of Revelation 20 it says that death and Hades—the dissolution of our mortal tents which "unclothes" our spirits—are thrown into the lake of fire—where, incidentally, the beast and the false prophet have been suffering during the millennium. This lake of fire where living beings are thrown to be punished IS the second death (Rev. 20:14). Finally, after death is forever "taken out", the resurrected wicked will be thrown into the lake of fire to suffer, as Jesus said, "eternal punishment". I know that many people argue that even though the wicked obviously suffer "for a while" in the lake of fire, they will eventually be annhilated. The Bible, however, does not ever say such a thing. Jesus Himself said more about hell than any other Bible writer, and we need to take him literally. The second death is described as a place where living beings—body and soul united or re-united in resurrection—suffer. We know, based on the passages in Revelation 19 and 20, that living beings suffer for 1,000 years in this second death before the devil joins them and they suffer "for ever and ever". This suffering in the lake of fire is what Jesus described as both body and soul being destroyed in hell. This fact does not make God cruel. On the contrary, the reality that sin is so completely destructive and abhorrenet to God that He cannot be in its presence, that those who rebel against Him MUST die (all of us), and that the death we MUST die is the lake of fire—this fact makes God's own sacrifice of Himself as a means of saving us from this death simply astonishing. Jesus suffered the effects of being forsaken by God as He hung—still in a living body—on the cross. His agony did not happen after he died. His agony occurred as He hung, body and soul united, on that cross. When he died, his body stopped—and He commended His spirit to His Father. This death—this separation of body and spirit—Jesus defeated at the resurrection. Never again does the malfuntion of our physical bodies and the unclothing of our spirits have the last word over humanity. Now, resurrection is assured—for both the righteous and the wicked. The righteous will be resurrected to eternal life—intimacy with God Himself without end. The wicked will be resurrected to eternal death—body and soul in the lake of fire, suffering, as Jesus said, eternally. God alone has the power to give life and to destroy life. God destroyed all the life on earth except that which survived in His own rescue operation at the flood. According to Genesis 6, God destroyed the earth because wickedness had run rampant. The flood foreshadowed the final judgment when again God will destroy the lives of the wicked. The final judgment will, like the first, have a way of escape—but this time the way of escape will not be an ark. It will, however, be a singular, specific means of escape. The way of escape is the Lord Jesus. He has come to save us from this final death of body AND soul—which the Bible describes as eternal punishment. God is not cruel and capricious; He Himself became our sin, suffered our suffering, died our death, experienced the unbridable distance between himself and His Father from Whom He was separated by our sin, and He offers us a way to live in spite of our natural, intractable, inherited sin. God has done an astonishing thing—He has offered us HIMSELF as the means of escaping His own wrath. I can hardly take it in. I stand in complete humility before my God who took in Himself all my sin, all my suffering, all my death—and has given me Himself instead. I just have no words to say. Colleen | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 495 Registered: 11-2004 |
Yes, I agree that something can exist and be dead at the same time. The part of a person that connects with God is dead until it is reborn. There are alot of dead men walking around on this earth - they are spiritually dead. Death came the day Adam and Eve sinned. They lived on in their bodies nearly 1000 years, but spiritually they had died. I think this coincides with the feeling of nakedness they had. 1 John 3 "14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Jesus came to give eternal life - not just to our bodies, but to the part of us that was dead to God. When we are born again we passed (past tense) from death to life. We have eternal life now. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 862 Registered: 10-2002  |
Real quick note (I don't want to get into this one)... Colleen, you wrote: "Non-existence would be never to have existed in the first place." Then what is "creation"? Isn't "creation" the calling into existence of something from nothing? If we say that non-existence means never existing in the first place, then we trip up our definition of creation. It would suggest that "creation" is not making things out of nothing, but making things out of things which already existed. But I know no one is making that argument. Instead it seems that the argument is simply that a spirit cannot be "unmade" by God. There is nothing in Scripture that says God is unable to unmake something, nor that He is unable to return something to a state of non-existence. The question is simply, "What is 'hell'?" Is it being unmade/returning to non-existence, or is it continuing existence in punishment? (Some would object to calling it "existence", but we're splitting hairs already) I have no objection to arguing eternal hell if it's from Scripture, but in arguing these things (whether re-defining "creation" or talking of what God cannot unmake) we are going beyond the written word. I know we *base* our ideas on Scripture, so some would be offended by my merely saying it is not Scriptural. But we need to make sure we are not taking things from texts that are not in the texts, and check how we read in-between the lines. Our ideas are fine for speculation but not to be dogmatic about. Often we reach very far in our arguments disproving the other side... "If they say this, then this means this". Examples of this are the annihilationist's claim that eternal hell diminishes God's love. No, God IS love, and if hell is eternal, then it's exactly what is necessary and in the best love in the universe. Conversely, the eternal hell believer often says that the annihilation position diminishes God's justice. No, this is not a Scriptural statment anymore than the annihilationist's. God IS just, so if God chooses to annihilate, it is the most just thing in the universe. Some would cry "not fair", but who are you and I to argue what is fair? Are we saved by fairness? No, we are saved by grace. Who are we to complain about how much or what form of punishment God dispenses? Who are we to argue with God's punishment -- whether it be either eternal suffering or eternal annihilation? In sum, there is a difference between aruging Scripture and arguing *theories* we have derived from Scripture (one position diminishes love, the other diminishes justice, etc.). If a person or a church or a group is making doctrine that disagrees with our speculations, we can't fault them. If they are making doctrine that disagrees with Scripture, however, then the written word is the place where truth and error will be exposed. We can mention our theories, but we need to recognize that we can only be dogmatic insofar as Scripture writes. I hope this makes sense. I am not yet 100% convinced of either position, but I am definitely convinced that unmaking something--or anything--is not beyond God's power. And I am convinced that whatever the truth is of "hell", that it is the most just, loving and appropriate thing in the universe. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 863 Registered: 10-2002 |
(note -- I wrote the above WITHOUT reading all of the other things and Scriptures in this thread) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6039 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ramone, I understand your point. I am not trying to say, however, that God cannot unmake a soul or spirit. He can do what He does—whatever that is. He alone creates, and He alone can destroy. I am saying that from Scripture there is no evidence to suggest that the second death annhilates. Since 2 Corinthians 5 explains the "first death" is a separation of the body from the spirit, and since Revelation 20 says that this death as well as resurrected humans are thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death where the the wicked will suffer for ever and ever, we cannot conclude that the lake of fire "annhilates". I completely agree with your overriding point, however: whatever God does, whether He annhilates or punishes forever and ever, is the most just, loving, and appropriate thing in the universe. We cannot conclude that God would or wouldn't do something based on our idea of how loving or unloving it would be. Our perceptions are not the measure of God. He is the ultimate value in the universe. Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 452 Registered: 10-2001  |
Well, I often forget to click the second "post" so, as not to re-type all that again.......I agree w/ Agapetos that God can do what He choses, however, it has always struck me how people can believe the devil is still around after thousands or billions of years but we die when we hit the grave. I do believe that hell is in a dimension that we don't comprehend and beyond our understanding, still I believe it is forever. | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 128 Registered: 10-2006 |
My doctrine on hell is based on a chant we did in the 60's: "Hell no, we won't go." Works for me... steve | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 129 Registered: 10-2006 |
By the way, no offense to Vietnam vets. God bless you for your sacrifice. You have my gratitude and respect. steve | ||
| Godssonjp Registered user Username: Godssonjp Post Number: 29 Registered: 1-2007 |
Can I ask a "dumb" question? If sin or the reminder of sin will be no more after the new heaven and new earth are made, and if lost souls will burn in Hell and exist forever and ever, then, how will sin be no more if it's still present in Hell? I'm having a hard time comprehending sin existing "somewhere" when we know that sin will be no more. Or am I off base completely? (Hope that makes sense) | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 595 Registered: 4-2006  |
Some interesting audios on Hell: http://66.70.167.149/audio/teaching/erich_grieshaber_death_heaven_hell.mp3 http://66.70.167.149/audio/teaching/robert_morey_death_afterlife.mp3 http://www.towertotruth.net/Audiofiles/james_bjornstad_hell.mp3 http://www.mmoutreach.org/audio/jw/peter_barnes_jws_nature_of_man.mp3 http://exadventist.dk/images/stories/downloads/lorri_macgregor_clone.mp3 http://www.mmoutreach.org/audio_jwinfoline/teaching/state_of_dead.mp3 | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 53 Registered: 5-2007 |
To say we were spiritualy dead is a figure of speech. It is another way of saying, we are not saved, in error, outside the saving Grace of God. The play on words is a tricky proposal. Redefining or extrapolating is complex. Disecting, defining the ingredients of body and soul is extrapolation. I find it odd that scripture does not deal with the soul , ghost , body subject to any great depth. Nor does it cleary explain hell. I know God can create any construct in all things including the proposed concept of eternal hell. But let's consider that to have smoke rising forever involves particulate mass. That mass in eternity would require mass the size of a planet given enough time. Thus to burn forever would require a feeder mass and a ejector plume. The substance of the soul(person) would have to have supernatural properties, hence immortal properties to be enabled to never to decompile. Hell becomes an eternal monument of punishment. This does not give God glory in my human mind. God gives us common sense. This defies it. Respectfully, I do not accept this doctrine. Hell is finite. The results are eternal. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 584 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jim, Just curious. Do you believe we have spirits that can separate from our bodies and can respond to the Holy Spirit? Also, being a "never-been" the Hell issue has been a non issue. I've always been taught that Hell is eternal. Since I also believe I am saved and have everlasting life through Jesus, the thought of an eternal Hell really doesn't bother me. I'm curious to know why it bothers you. Will belief in this doctrine change your relationship with the Lord, or the way you envision Him? The idea that Hell is not eternal is foreign to me. I ask with all due respect and curiosity, Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1870 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jim, we are not the ones redefining words. Adventism redefined the words, because they did not like the Biblical definitions that the Christian Church had held to for the past 2,000 years. If Jesus only meant that the results are what is eternal, then why did He "wrongly" say that the punishment itself is what is eternal (Matthew 25:46)? Also, what would be the need for saying that the results are eternal/permanent? Aren't the results of any punishment eternal/permanent? If someone has spent 6 months in prison, that punishment cannot then be "reversed" can it? The results are eternal/unchangeable! No punishment can be "undone"! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 13, 2007) |
