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| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hi, it's been a while since the last time I visited this forum because I stopped discussing with my adventist friends. Well today I recieved an email from a adventist friend and I really need some wisdom and strong answers before I'll send him a reply. I just show the whole article, so please, any advise and strong biblical answers are appreciated. Thanks! Paul and Barnabas Teach on the Sabbath ACTS 13:14-15, 42-44 contains an account of Paul and Barnabas teaching Jews on the Sabbath: “But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, You men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on” (vs. 14-15). The account picks up in verse 42: “And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.” Why would he not tell them to just show up the next day—Sunday—instead of requiring them to wait an entire week, until the next Sabbath, for further instruction? The account says nothing of Paul telling the Gentiles that they no longer had an obligation to keep the Sabbath—that it had been done away. While one might suppose that the Jews still carried this obligation, why did Paul not at least explain to the Gentiles, in a message about the “grace of God,” that the Law had been nailed to the cross? He could have easily explained that the Sabbath was no longer binding in the New Testament era. Notice verse 43: “Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of god.” But more time passed. People wanted to hear more of the “word of God.” Paul required everyone to wait another week—a second time. Another lost opportunity to point the Gentiles to Sunday. Now read: “And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God” (vs. 44). “Continuing in the grace of God” meant learning to observe the Sabbath! Gentiles Also Assemble on Sabbath The next passage, ACTS 15:1-2, 14-21, yields important understanding. Examine it closely. Certain Jews had come to Antioch seeking to teach newly converted Gentiles that they must keep the law of Moses and be circumcised to be saved. It states “no small dissension” arose between Paul and Barnabas and these teachers. A conference of ministers was necessary to resolve the question of what was binding on Gentiles. Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to confer with the apostles and elders. James announced the final decision: “Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood” (vs. 19-20). Let’s examine James’ statement. Some assert that James did not tell them that the Ten Commandments were binding on Gentiles. Of course, he did not say this! The Commandments were not in question. Rather, circumcision and obedience to the law of Moses were the issues in dispute. Think a moment. Would any suggest that, because James did not mention the Ten Commandments, he was tacitly approving cursing, killing, adultery, stealing, lying, etc.? Ridiculous! How far some will go to get away from the Fourth Commandment! James did mention four points in Moses’ law that should still be kept. Now notice verse 21: “For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.” This verse is crucial. It reveals that Gentile converts were attending services and hearing the first five books of the Law “every Sabbath day.” The New Testament records this important clue for those seeking to know which day God’s people were keeping after Christ’s Church began—“every” week. Why did the apostle’s letter not tell the Gentiles to stop meeting “every Sabbath”? Think of it. This is a giant omission—an enormous missed opportunity to correct what many believe is the greatest burden of all—Sabbath-keeping! It is evident that Gentile converts were routinely instructed to begin meeting on the Sabbath day. This is the message of verse 21! Another Account Next we examine ACTS 16:12-15, an account of Paul and Silas observing the Sabbath in Philippi . Careful reading of the account shows that it was a custom for people to meet on a river bank each Sabbath: “And from there to Philippi …and we were in that city abiding certain days. And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spoke unto the women which resorted there. And a certain woman named Lydia , a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira , which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. And…she was baptized.” Obviously, Paul and those with him kept the Sabbath each week. This required them to find where Sabbath assembly regularly took place locally. Paul Kept the Sabbath The next account, ACTS 18:1-11, is remarkable. It reveals that Paul worked during the week and kept the Sabbath—“every” Sabbath: “After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; and found a certain Jew named Aquila…with his wife Priscilla…and came unto them. And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers. And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks [Gentiles]…and he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them” (vs. 1-4, 11). Eighteen months is equivalent to 78 weekly Sabbaths on which Paul taught God’s Word! Verse 6 shows that the Jews became angry and, blaspheming, departed from Paul. This left him teaching Gentiles only—and yet he continued teaching them on the Sabbath! The argument that he met on the Sabbath to satisfy the Jews holds no water. Paul taught both Jews and Gentiles each Sabbath. And he worked the other six days in accord with “Six days shall you labor, and do all your work.” If Paul was also observing Sunday, he would have been routinely violating the other aspect of the Sabbath command, having but five days to work. Finally, notice that Acts 17:2 states that Paul, when in Thessalonica, “…as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures.” This was also a Gentile city. The pattern is clear. Paul kept the Sabbath, meeting with and teaching brethren everywhere he went. Now consider what he instructed the Gentile Corinthians: “Be you followers of me, even as I also am of Christ” (I Cor. 11:1). | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2007  |
Hi and welcome back Williamjr007, I am sure some of our theologians will be posted something in more detail, so let me simply interject a couple of begining thoughts: First, clearly Paul did worship on the Sabbath. Since he was a Jew, so what? It is more to the point to look at what Paul had to say on this topic and look at the following pasage: Col. 2:13-17 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Phil | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3795 Registered: 3-2004  |
Remember also, Paul was the apostle to the Jews, so he went to where they gathered. That was the temple on the 7th day. I will let those who know more answer more of this. But I will warn you, no matter how much Bible you quote to your friend, the friend will probably not believe you and will find some way to skirt around the verses you quote. What I would do if I were you would be to just tell him why you left with the Biblical proof and leave it at that. I hope I am wrong, but that is what SDAs have done and do do on CARM. Praying for the person is the best you can do. Ask God to give you the words to say. Just my opinion. Diana (Message edited by Flyinglady on June 17, 2007) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1879 Registered: 10-2004  |
Oh my, there is so much wrong in that article and so many twisted things--I don't know if I'll be able to cover everything. First of all, none of the Scriptures given say that Paul or anyone else was keeping the Sabbath day (resting/abstaining from work, which is what the commandment says). In Acts 13, Paul and Barnabas were preaching in a Jewish synagogue--so of course it would be on the Sabbath day. Then, in verse 42, it depends on what translation you're reading, as there is a manuscript difference there. In the NASB, verses 42-43 read:
First of all, it sounds to me like verse 43 is still talking about Week 1--not Week 2 as the above article claims. By the way, the term "God-fearing proselytes" referred to Gentiles who worshipped the God of the Jews, but who had not been circumcised or fully joined Judaism. (These people were not Christians, by the way--merely people interested in Judaism.) Even these did not keep the Sabbath--they merely went to the Synagogue on the Sabbath day. Even if it was the Gentile proselytes who begged them to speak the next Sabbath in verse 42 (as the KJV says), that was obviously because that's when the Jewish Synagogue met! Quoting from the article...
First of all, he had no need to tell the Gentiles that the Sabbath was no longer binding on them--since it never was binding on the Gentiles in the first place. They knew this. They did not keep it. As I said above, even the Gentile proselytes who were interested in Judaism and worshipped at the synagogue on sabbath, did not keep the Sabbath. They were not allowed to keep the Sabbath until they were circumcised and became Jews! The Sabbath commandment had nothing to do with worship or what "day" to worship on! It had to do with rest. It was supposed to be kept at home anyway (Exodus 16:29, Leviticus 23:3). The Jews did not start having Sabbath Synagogue services until after the Babylonian captivity. The Synagogues and their worship services were not commanded by the Law--the Jews just added them later. The Law simply said to REST. Also, the article says: "Why would he not tell them to just show up the next day—Sunday—instead of requiring them to wait an entire week, until the next Sabbath, for further instruction?" Again, the Sabbath was when everyone gathered together at the Synagogue. And that argument does not even make sense. Even from a "Sabbath-keeper's" viewpoint, why couldn't Paul preach the Gospel to them on Sunday, or Monday, or Tuesday? Rather than "requiring them to wait" (it was their own request!) until the next Sabbath? As I said, it was obviously because that's when everyone gathered together at the Synagogue. The article continues: "Paul required everyone to wait another week—a second time. Another lost opportunity to point the Gentiles to Sunday." Again, I see it as still talking about the first time. But, it doesn't matter anyway as explained above. And we don't believe that Sunday is the "new" Sabbath or that it is a holy day in itself! The article continues:
That is blasphemous nonsense that is not supported by the text at all! The "grace of God" that they were persuaded/urged to continue in was what they had just preached to them about: THE GOSPEL of Jesus Christ--the Good News of salvation by grace! And regarding what happened that next week, starting in verse 44, the Bible tells us:
So, what happened was that the Gentiles believed and were saved. The people being preached to in Acts 13 were not Christian believers. None of these Synagogue gatherings in Acts 13 were gatherings of Christians for Christian fellowship--rather Paul and Barnabas were preaching the Gospel/evangelizing to non-Christians. We are talking about Jewish synagogues, after all. These were gatherings of Judaism--not Christianity! They were Jewish worship services, not Christian worship services. And Paul and Barnabas took advantage of the opportunity to preach the Gospel to these unsaved, non-Christian Jews and Gentile proselytes of Judaism. Whew, I think I've covered the Acts 13 part! Man, this is gonna be a looooong post! Hehe!  Regarding Acts 15, the article says:
The Ten Commandments (actually "Ten Words" in the original Hebrew) are part of the Law of Moses! Of course they were in question. The ENTIRE Law of Moses was in question! Circumcision was being discussed because that was the entrance sign into the Mosaic covenant. Once the Gentiles were circumcised, they were now considered Jews, and had to keep the entire Law of Moses. Before becoming circumcised, they weren't allowed to keep the Law of Moses, including the Sabbath which God specifically said was a sign between Him and Israel to "sanctify" ("separate") them from the Gentiles (see Exodus 31:12-17)! Therefore, if they decided at the council at Jersusalem to NOT require the Gentiles to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses (which is exactly what they decided), then the Gentiles could not possibly even be allowed to keep the Sabbath, according to the Law! Just because we are not under the Law of Moses (which includes the Ten Commandments ["Words"]) does not mean that we are free to murder, steal, commit adultery, etc. Those things are forbidden in the New Testament/Covenant, which we are under. "James did mention four points in Moses’ law that should still be kept." Some of the things James mentioned were so as not to offend the Jews, since Moses is read in every city (verse 21). The article says:
The verse says nothing about Gentile Christians attending services on Sabbath. Again, it is talking about non-Christian Jewish Synagogue services which preach Moses. It is talking about not offending the Jews. And it explicitly says "in the synagogues"--it is talking about non-Christian gatherings of Judaism! It is not talking about Christian Church gatherings/services! And the first part of the verse says, "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him"--it is the non-Christian Jews who preach MOSES. Christians preach JESUS!!! The article says: "Why did the apostle’s letter not tell the Gentiles to stop meeting “every Sabbath”?" They WEREN'T meeting on "Sabbath" (at least not in honor of the sabbath day)! And they did tell them not to keep the Sabbath by telling them they did not have to be circumcised or keep the Law of Moses, as I explained above. Ok, now onto Acts 16. The article says:
When there were not enough Jewish men in a city to form a Synagogue, the people would find a place to gather, such as we see them doing by the river here in Philippi in Acts 16. Once again, this is not a Christian gathering, but is a gathering of non-Christian Jews and Gentile proselytes of Judaism. Apparently, Lydia was one of these "God-fearing" proselytes. The reason Paul went there was obviously not to "keep the Sabbath" (the Sabbath had to do with rest not worship anyway), but to evangelize/preach the Gospel! It was Paul's custom to preach the Gospel to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles. Ok, now onto Acts 18. The article says:
Again, it says nothing about Paul "keeping" the Sabbath. And it says nothing about which days he worked! The article says:
Again, it says "in the synagogue"--this was a Jewish gathering, not a Christian gathering. He was preaching the Gospel to the Jews and the Gentile proselytes. Verse 4 says: "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." (NASB.) But once the Jews "resisted and blasphemed" (verse 6), it does not say that he continued to teach on the Sabbath! In fact, verse 6 says: "But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, 'Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.'" (NASB.) It sounds like he was not going to be teaching in the Synagogue anymore. Verse 11 says: "And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them." (NASB.) It does not say he was teaching on the Sabbath or that he was teaching "in the synagogue" anymore (although verse 8 does say that "the leader of the synagogue" became a Christian). But again, nowhere does it say that he continued teaching Gentiles alone, on the Sabbath. And if they are going to try to use verse 6 as their "proof"--well, they can't because verse 6 also says "in the synagogue" and if Paul was teaching "in the [Jewish] synagogue" then it couldn't be to "Gentiles only"! The article continues:
Well, if the Sabbath command requires a person to work six days a week, then many Adventists themselves violate the command! Actually, however, verse 5 (in the modern translations--another manuscript difference apparently) says that Paul quit working altogether--he worked zero days per week!! Verses 3-5 say: "and because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and they were working, for by trade they were tent-makers. 4And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. 5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ." (NASB.) Or as the NIV says in verse 5, "When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching," The article concludes with:
That reference to Acts 17:2 and Thessalonica being a Gentile city, is very deceptive. Acts 17:1-3 tells us: "Now when they had traveled through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, 'This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ.'" (NASB.) So once again, this was Paul evangelizing the non-Christian Jews and "God-fearing Greeks" (verse 4). It was not a gathering of Christians, or a Christian worship service. And it was not Paul speaking to a Gentile gathering either! And notice that it says "according to Paul's custom"--it was his custom to preach the Gospel to the Jews first, by going to the place that they gathered together (usually a synagogue) at the time that they gathered together (the Sabbath day). And again, nowhere does it say that Paul kept the Sabbath in any of these instances. Well, I guess that's all I have to say, but I probably missed covering some things! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 17, 2007) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1106 Registered: 4-2000  |
Hi William, Here is an excellent, 16-page sermon link that may be of interest to you: http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-225.htm When Jesus died the Sabbath died! Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, never even mentions the sin of "Sabbath-breaking." Why not? The Gentiles certainly were not savvy in Jewish observances. All the festal observances pointed to Jesus--the reality of the shadows. If we continue to observe the shadows of the Cross, we are actually denying the reality of Christ. Although frustrating to Seventh-day Adventists, the word "Sabbath" does not even appear in the book of Genesis nor in the book of Revelation. There are no holy days in the Christian calendar because every day is a very special day in Christ (see Heb. 4). Man entered into rest with God after creation. However, that perpetual Sabbath was broken by the Fall. As Adam entered into God's rest after creation, we enter into His rest after redemption. Jesus is our Sabbath. The Church worships the Lord on the first day of the week, the day Jesus rose from the dead, because that resurrection day was the day that mankind again could rest in the joy of the Lord. COMMENTARY NOTE ON THE SABBATH:
Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1880 Registered: 10-2004 |
I need to correct something that I wrote above. I said:
I said verse 6, but the verse I was referring to is actually verse 4 (of Acts 18), not verse 6. Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 876 Registered: 9-2006  |
I go with what you said Dianna and Phil said, Notice this statement they made “Continuing in the grace of God” meant learning to observe the Sabbath! Is the grace of God all about learning to keep the Sabbath, or the grace provided by him to deliver us, is this what the cross and the suffering Christ was all about, learning to keep the Sabbath? Do we acquire his grace by “keeping” the Sabbath? Notice also how they keep repeating over and over the words “Keep, keeping, the Sabbath. It leads them back to the same old tired circle of whether one carries his chair or slides it across the floor with the legs in contact with the floor at all times and then to the next logical conclusion, no pork rinds, no joy nohow, their services are so slow and dull I have to take a laser level along to see if anybody moves, I think some mortician is playing a prank on me. I second Mr. Steve, Adventism make me tired, or tard if you happen to be from Orkinsow. Methinks one could argue with them till the cows come home and not get much wheres. Howsomever I will leave it to the wiser heads on here. Rotsa ruck my friend. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6073 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jeremy and Dennis, excellent explanations! William, another point is that, as Jeremy has mentioned, Paul always preached "first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles". In every city he went to, he preached first in the Jewish synagogues where non-Christian Jews and God-fearing but non-Christian Gentiles gathered to hear the law. Acts 19:8-10 explains more fully than some of the other passages what Paul would do when the Jews would finally kick him out of the synagogue and he would turn to the Gentiles. Here is is: "Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the provice of Asia heard the word of the Lord." When Paul was kicked out of the Jewish synagogues, he would go to places where the Gentiles gathered, no longer specifically trying to preach to the Jews. In Ephesus, Paul spent three months preaching weekly in the synagogue and two years preaching daily in the hall of Tyrannus. There was no "Sabbath observance" going on there! Colleen | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2005 |
Thanks everyone for the helpfull and meaningfull answers!! I've never been an adventist and know about them only for about 2 years, and still it strikes me everytime how they twist and play with words to let a passage say what they want it to say. It's great to have brothers and sisters who have much more experience than I have to let me see it. Well, thanks again and now I'm able to give my friend a good answer (apart from how he will react...negative I'd say according to my previous experiences but that doesn't matter) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 879 Registered: 9-2006 |
Williamjr007, I am also a never been, I have been associated with Adventist for about five years and still in contact daily, they really push the Sabbath thing and sounds like they are reaching out again to convince you of the Sabbath and perhaps rope you in for good, I suppose they figure if you ever admit the Sabbath that it is an easy shot for them there on out. Many of my friends have about given up on me I think, when they come in with their downer stuff I just continue thanking God the I am already saved and such. One of my friends in particular is really on a downer right now and I will continue to try minister to him Gods love and grace. Keep on keeping on my friend. River | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hi River, yeah, like you said : after two years I still don't know why this whole Sabbath issue is so important to them. I read a lot about them, about their history and so on just to try to understand. I even started a biblestudy group with them in the hope they'd read the bible with different glasses...but I gave up... it feels like bumping into a wall : the wall didn't move and I got "hurt" (read : desillusioned). So in the end I "keep on keeping" like you said! :-) | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 132 Registered: 10-2006 |
I can see it now: An Adventist standing before the judgement throne, before Jesus. "Well, Lord, I believe I should be saved because I went to church on Saturday and did not work on that day." Jesus replies, "yes, and your point? By the way, do I know you?" steve | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 881 Registered: 9-2006 |
Steve, I can very well see what you see, every time I think about these people it leads me right back to the same scripture "In that day many will come and say Lord, Lord......... Have a great day in mile high. River | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 116 Registered: 8-2005 |
You know, now that I attend a PCA church I am approached about the 'Christian' Sabbath. Many people consider Sunday to be the 'Christian' Sabbath and believe they have strong Biblical evidence for it. It seems strange that I would have to bring up the fact that I don't see either day mentioned as mandatory on Christians - neither Saturday or Sunday. By the way...thanks Jeremy for that excellent refutation (is that even a word?) of the usual 'Sabbath' proof texts. Thanks Dennis for bringing out the point that Paul never brings up Sabbath-breaking as a sin to shun. I had never considered that before. Given that Adventists use the argument that the Apostles don't specifically mention Sabbath-keeping as binding because it was understood to be binding, therefore not something they ever considered would be at issue. I brought up to a well-meaning SDA the idea that if Sabbath was so important then why did none of the Apostles mention how to keep it (since much of the NT was directed at Gentiles). It would seem logical to me that if Sabbath was so important that eternal destinies would be determined by wheter we kept it or not, then certainly God would have made sure the Gentiles would have been told HOW to keep the Sabbath, but, alas, there is nothing! The respnose was that Gentiles were very familiar with the Sabbath and would have known how to keep it since everyone knew how stict the Jews were about it. This is the one doctrine (even more than the prophetic status of EGW) that only the Spirit of God can break through. ISO | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1590 Registered: 7-2003 |
ISO, my ex used to say the same thing about why there was no conversation on the sabbath rules, and I always asked....you mean there is confusion about murder and immorality, but not holy day observances? I mean, it seems murder is pretty cut and dry. |
