Post Number: 82
|Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 6:55 am: || |
Thank You !, You have given me the keys.
You have much insight. I agree with a lot of your positions.
I am still in a quandry om the Hell topic. I have understood that the burn time is the differing factor in punishment from case to case. ie:Hitler. (Admittedly conjecture)
Post Number: 902
|Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 8:04 am: || |
Jeremy, there are those who maintain that we may lose our Salvation, you know the story.
I call it “infernal insecurity”, got my own name for the things you see?
There are the “eternal security” folks and then there are the “infernal insecurity” folk.
Without fail they will quote out of Hebrews 10 until they get down to about verse 38 then they stop.
What I want to ask you is what do you think is the reason they never get past verse 38 to verse 39 where he declares 39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul." (Hebrews 10:26-39 NASB.)
Got any idea about why they do this? It is beyond me. All opinions welcome.
Post Number: 1883
|Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 11:20 am: || |
River, I'm with you--it is beyond me. I have noticed the same thing. They never seem to read to the end of the chapter! I suppose the only logical reason would be that they're proof-texting. Some of them, though, don't even get close to the end of the chapter, I don't think.
But it amazes me, too.
Post Number: 6101
|Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 1:23 pm: || |
Jeremy, powerful post above. I agree, River and Jeremy, camping on Hebrews 10:26-37 without including 38-39 is mystifying. I believe that many people really fear the idea that people are eternally secure. If people are secure, there's no power in pummelling them with legal demands.
Yes, I believe proof-texting is likely the issue here...
Post Number: 1113
|Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 1:55 pm: || |
Supposedly, the Adventist God is "too kind and loving" to torment people beyond a quick consuming fire. Yet EGW says that the Devil will somehow burn for days. This doesn't sound like the fire the SDA evangelists preach about that instantly comes down from heaven and consumes or "devours" the wicked in a lake of fire. To have assorted degrees of torment would be akin to the methodology of the true God (i.e., Rev. 20:10). Adventists generally make fun of a God who would torment people with varying degrees of intensity. This type of torment would require a special type of fire that doesn't simply burn people up quickly, but rather an intentional, slow, excruciating roasting job--the very type of fire Adventists frequently ridicule or mock.
It is my impression that the torment of hell is presented in metaphorical language. Peter describes evil angels "in pits of darkness." Somehow "pits of darkness" don't sound very hot--maybe even cold? God is incapable of being cruel. However, the worst feature of hell is its duration. There will be no atheists in hell--only believers. The wicked certainly wouldn't relish the thought of singing praises to God forever and ever. Indeed, heaven would be hell to them. Hell is quarantine or separation similar to the fate of evil angels who have been in torment for ages already (also akin to the fate of Adam and Eve in being expelled (separated) from their garden home). It would be a horrific evil to think that God would snuff out (eliminate) the crowning jewels of his creation--His image-bearers. Such action would do violence to His nature.
Post Number: 151
|Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 2:20 pm: || |
Gilbert I really enjoyed reading your testimony.
By the way I used to love reading your weblog about Adventism and the links it had as well. What happened to it?
The IJ and that infamous quarterly on 1844 plus the Sunday Law teaching were the things that really got me questioning Adventism.
Post Number: 36
|Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 8:30 pm: || |
Gilbert, I just was catching up on posts and read your testimony. I continue to be amazed at how the Lord works in each of our lives to bring us to Himself. I love how He uses Christians who are not bound by legalism to show us the message of the cross and grace. I remember singing Victory in Jesus for the first time after I started attending a Baptist church in my area (probably just before I made a committment to Christ). Those words penetrated my heart and I still love to sing them to this day.
I would love to see an expanded version of your story in the "Stories" section of this website.
Post Number: 89
|Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 6:42 am: || |
I have concluded that there is not enough information in scripture to firmly settle the debate on Eternal Hell, the specific method of punishment or actual state of existance for those who are lost.
The Bible often speaks of death and perishing regarding those who will be lost.
The tenor is one of finality to my understanding.
One of the mind numbing problems I have with debates is when I am told that this means that and that means this, this has a different translation and so on. Thus when it becomes a tangental construct, a mixed blender debate. I conclude , it is not given to me to know the answer. If I find myself wrestling with scripture my confidence level in validity falls off rapidly.
This is not a matter of lack of faith, but rather a defense mechanism that says, if it is this hard to determine the answer, then I default to letting go of it as not for me to resolve or prove.
I accept that some things cannot be proven or settled. This is one of them.
Post Number: 3822
|Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 7:51 am: || |
When I left adventism for good, I left behind the need to have all the answers.
When it comes to hell/punishment I tell myself that this is not a salvation issue. So, for me, I told God, you are just and fair and as long as I am in heaven, I am not going to understand this unless you want me to do so. God will only do what is fair and just and He is God, so He knows best.
Post Number: 99
|Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 8:17 am: || |
I agree with you.
"God will only do what is fair and just and He is God, so He knows best."