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Jim02
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Post Number: 77
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 8:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a question that has come up before. I keep coming back to it. Never found an answer in my SDA books.

Why does God not talk to us openly?
Why do we not get to talk to Angels?
Why are there no apparent prophets today?
Why must we take our best guesses?
Why does God allow us to remain in error?

The SDA have taught me to be wary of any open revelation source such as a False Christ, a Familiar spirit, a False teacher (prophet) and so on.
Thus , even if and when God does speak, directly or indirectly, how do we authenticate?

Do you believe that the Devil cannot read minds?
Can an Angel?
Do we issue a password ? :-)
Silly but serious !

I guess this subject is rhetorical. I have my own surmisings about this.

But I would love to hear what others think.
Grace_alone
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 9:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jim!

This is the way I was raised. (Keep in mind I'm a "never-been")

I do believe God speaks to us, through his word. Careful study (Bible only) teaches us his nature.

Angels are God's messengers, so we don't have a need to speak to them.

All the prophets in the Bible pointed to Christ. Once he got here there was really no need for a prophet, and no where in the NT does it suggest that there will be a new prophet to lead us to any new truths. Jesus is it, Baby!

I don't look at it as "guessing" as much as I look at it as trusting. Which leads to sticking only to God's word, and not relying on other "inspired" writings.

I do not believe the Devil can read our minds. There are no scriptures that even suggest it. Neither can Angels. God is the only one, because he created us! He knew us before we were even born, the scriptures say.

A password? For what? Okay, Peanutbutter and Jelly.

That's my take. I'm looking forward to seeing what our other bros and sisters say...

:-) Leigh Anne
Jim02
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh Anne,
What about the gifts mentioned in 1Cor12

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
Jorgfe
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have puzzled over this myself, and think that Hebrews 8:8-12 may partially explain it.

My understanding is that under the New Covenant the Holy Spirit dwells within each of us and transforms our characters. Jesus referred to this as well when He said after His return to Heaven he would send the Comforter.

Under the Old Covenant the Holy Spirit didn't work in the same way.

Hebrews 8:8-12 NIV says,

"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

And Romans 8:26 KJV says,

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

As a New Covenant Christian it would seem to me like things are a little different, as far as the need for a prophet and other external sources of inspiration, if our bodies are truly the Temple of God -- where the Holy Spirit dwells, and creates in us a new person.

Why would we even need a prophet if God says he will communicate directly with each of us through His Holy Spirit? Which is better? The Holy Spirit, of course!

Gilbert Jorgensen
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Leigh Anne. I used to wonder the same thing, Jim. The significant fact that I understand now that I didn't as an Adventist is that the Holy Spirit is real, and His indwelling us as born-again Christ-followers is not merely a theoretical "power boost" but is a completely new reality and existence.

Being connected to God means that He literally communicates with us. He DOES speak to us! Our "learning curve" is the discipline of learning to trust Him and to recognize His voice. We can totally trust what we read in the Bible, but it won't "hang together" unless we make ourselves vulnerable to Him and ask Him to teach us the truth. He gives new understanding and insight as we ponder the words of Scripture.

I used to feel annoyed with people when they said the answers to life's persistent questions were in the Bible. Of COURSE they're not...it never tells us whom to marry, when to buy a house, how much to pay for a car, whether to have three children or four, etc.

What I'm learning, however, is that these specific details are not the sorts of things that constitute knowing God's will—although they involve God's will. Knowing God's will has more to do with learning who we are in Christ, learning to hold loosely everything He gives us and to surrender our desires and dreams to Him, learning to trust that whatever we are experiencing as Christ-followers is happening so we will learn to trust Him.

As I learn to trust Jesus, the losses and surprises and provisions in my life have new significance. I'm learning to trust that the times of not knowing are God's work in my life. He wants me to depend upon Him, not upon the His "solutions". In other words, the way God provides for me once may never happen again. Each step of my life is a new and deeper step of trust and faith. His provisions will be as varied and surprising as He chooses. Just because he preserves my husband's job one year doesn't mean He will preserve it in the next crisis.

The next crisis may mean he will lose his job, but God's provision will be in different forms this time.

It's not the specific answers to our dilemmas that reveal God's will so much as learning to ask Him to reveal Himself to us. Learning how to let go of the need to control everything, to allow God to work and to give our hearts peace while we can't "see" is where we learn to "hear" God and to recognize the deep settled peace that is His "voice". The Bible shows us how to live consistently, trustingly, and in surrender to Him. Acting in obedience to God's request that we surrender and trust Him is the "place" where we learn His will. He doesn't provide "miracles" for our crises. He provides Himself: peace, trust, the willingess to submit ourselves to His will and to allow Him to be all we need.

This place of surrender of our control is where His miracles happen. He Himself is our reward and provision, and He keeps His promises. He gives us all we need, and He gives us life more abundantly.

Colleen
Grace_alone
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jim,

regarding the gift of prophecy, here's an informative explanation with scriptures... http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/gifts/prophecy.htm

Gift of prophecy does not always mean "predictor". A true prophet glorifies Christ and agrees with scripture. A true prophet does NOT add to scripture or glorify a peticular denomination. I really don't believe that those verses refer to EGW, or Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah's Witness "prophet") or Joseph Smith (Mormon prophet). In fact, regular people like you or me or Colleen or Gilbert can have the gift of prophecy.

I'm certainly not an expert, I'm sure there are more here who can offer more information.

:-) Leigh Anne
Jim02
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 11:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, you wrote:

"learning to hold loosely" very profound !
I like that. Thank You.

But you wrote:
"He doesn't provide "miracles" for our crises."

You don't think so? How is that?
Laurie
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 1:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hebrews 1

1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

I used to ask that question until I read this.
Leigh Anne - you're right! Jesus is it!
This text says it all - it even tells us where Jesus is. This one text alone disproves the IJ theory for me. A friend of mine who left the church with me pointed this verse out to me. How could I have never read it before on my own.

Laurie
River
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why does God not talk to us openly?
Why do we not get to talk to Angels?
Why are there no apparent prophets today?
Why must we take our best guesses?
Why does God allow us to remain in error?

The SDA have taught me to be wary of any open revelation source such as a False Christ, a Familiar spirit, a False teacher (prophet) and so on.
Thus , even if and when God does speak, directly or indirectly, how do we authenticate?

Do you believe that the Devil cannot read minds?
Can an Angel?
Do we issue a password ?

I thought it might be challenging to answer these questions line by line.

1. Why does God not talk to us openly?
If you mean in an audible voice, if he is in you why does he need to speak outside you?

2. Why do we not get to talk to Angels?
What Leigh Anne said.

3. Why are there no apparent prophets today?
If you mean as the prophets of old spoke, God has spoken by his word.
Now there is the gift of prophecy, people speaking forth in the body of Christ and that is for the up building, admonition and encouragement of the body. It will never go against the word and needs to be verified by the saints (that’s you) by the word. Most churches today do not have this gift operating amongst them because they don’t believe in it so they get what they believe for which is zilch.

You won’t see it in the Baptist, Methodist and such because if some one obeyed God and spoke by the Holy Spirit there they would be walked out on a rail and told not to come back probably, Heh heh. If someone spoke in tongues in there they would all faint er have a stroke er something, I can just see it now, old ladies swooning all over the place!

There was a brother Lavender who was a great Baptist Pastor in Bakersfield California who was a beloved Pastor in this big church for many, many years, well, he got to believing the Bible and began to speak in tongues (Baptism in the Holy Ghost) well sir, he had been their beloved Pastor for so long they didn’t know what to do with him, they had nothing to accuse him so the last time I heard they just let him go on Pastoring their church. I thought it was funny but I don’t guess they did. Ha! But then this is probably the exception to the rule.

Most of the gifts spoken of in 1 Cor. 8-10 are supernatural gifts and they aren’t going on in most of the churches today, they have fooled themselves and explained away and think they are in operation but they are not. Most of them wouldn’t know one of these gifts if it came up and bit them on the behind and that’s where the gift of prophecy lays, outside the doors of the church, relegated to the back burner, they don’t know what to do with the tongues, it is not in operation in their churches so they say “They were just for the apostle’s and not for today and explain it away, I don’t know what the Holy Spirit thinks of a people to whom he wants to give these gifts for the building-up and edification of the body when they don't even want them. Go figure.
You got a long answer on that one because I could not read your thinking.

4. Why must we take our best guesses?
Do you? If you truly have the Holy Spirit leading you, why are you having to guess, if he is not leading you he is not in you and you need to repent and come to Christ, if he is in us and leading us and we are still guessing it is probably lack of faith and confidence in the Lord and his word, I think that is where most of our problems lay, lack of faith in him too lead us. Ouch, that hurt. I know that is my big problem plus lack of confidence in myself and a lot of other hang-ups which get in my way, but I know it ain’t his fault.

5. Why does God allow us to remain in error?
Because you were in error, he gave us the Bible fer cryin out loud, at what time did you not have a Bible, were you born in 1312?
He has poured out his Spirit, offered the gifts of the Spirit freely, shed his blood, what else is he supposed to do, get up on Mt Shasta or Pikes Peak er somewhere an beller, yo, you are in error!!!

6. Quote: The SDA have taught me to be wary of any open revelation source such as a False Christ, a Familiar spirit, a False teacher (prophet) and so on.
Haaa!! That’s a good one. No other comment.

7. Thus , even if and when God does speak, directly or indirectly, how do we authenticate?
You have a Bible don’t you? Me, I check it out by the word and if it don’t line up I have probably just ate too many Tacos.

8. Do you believe that the Devil cannot read minds?
Yes, why should he, he’s been around longer thanwe have to observe our nature. He ought to have learned something about us in a few thousand years ya think?

9.Can an Angel?
Don’t know for sure but it stands to reason God does so there wouldn’t be a problem if he felt it necessary to speak to us by angels, he already knows what we are going to do or say. By the way is anyone on here even seen any?

10. Do we issue a password ?
No, we don’t need fear Satan and his cohorts. He can only do what our Father allows him to do, he would like to make us think he has power over us, but let a true Christian name the name of Jesus and he’ll go slinking off somers to eat his worms.

So there ya have it my friend, my take on these things. IMHO.

River
River
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Post Number: 896
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now, I have placed a wash tub over my head to ward off rotten tomatoes, cabbages and sich so let'er rip.

River
Laurie
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River - you're funny. I'm not going to throw anything at you.

I especially like your answer to #5.

A few years ago I was almost angry at God asking how could he have let me be born into that church, educated by that church, take my husband into that church and never tell me I was wrong.

Yes I was born into SDA without choice, yes I was educated into it for 10 years of schooling without choice. However, as an adult I remained there by choice. Even if the choice I made was to remain ignorant. River, you are absolutely correct. At no point in my life was I without a Bible. In fact, I have a whole shelf full of them from all the revelation seminars I have attended.

I just realized this about 6 months ago. I am responsble. Me and only me. I could have read Hebrews, Galations, the whole new testament years and years ago and studied for myself. But I didn't. I am not mad at God, or my parents, or myself. It is what it is. But I know that I am responsible for my decisions as an adult.

Laurie
River
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I want to share this with you folks, I don’t really know how true it is but it demonstrates how very important it is for us to not explain any part of the word of God away.

WHY JESUS FOLDED THE LINEN CLOTH AFTER HIS RESURRECTION
The Gospel of John (20: 7) tells us that the napkin, which was placed over the face of Jesus, was not just thrown aside like the grave clothes.
The Bible takes an entire verse to tell us that the napkin was neatly folded, and was placed at the head of that stony coffin. Is that important? You'd better believe it! Is that significant? Absolutely! Is it really significant? Yes!

In order to understand the significance of the folded napkin, you have to understand a little bit about Hebrew tradition of that day.

The folded napkin had to do with the Master and Servant, and every Jewish boy knew this tradition.

When the servant set the dinner table for the master, he made sure that it was exactly the way the master wanted it.
The table was furnished perfectly, and then the servant would wait, just out of sight, until the master had finished eating, and the servant would not dare touch that table, until the master was finished.
Now if the master was done eating, he would rise from the table, wipe his fingers, his mouth, and clean his beard, and would wad up that napkin and toss it onto the table.
The servant would then know to clear the table. For in those days, the wadded napkin meant, "I'm done". But if the master got up from the table, and folded his napkin, and laid it beside his plate, the servant would not dare touch the table, because the servant knew that the folded napkin meant, "I'm not finished yet." The folded napkin meant, "I'm coming back!"

It was important enough that he folded the napkin, it was important enough to put in his word, it is important even if it seems insignificant, it may seem just a by line, an after thought, an un-thought out scribble, an automatic reflexive act, but our Lord was and is precise, we must ask ourselves what have we missed in his word? What great blessing have we missed because we quickly individually or corporately came to some conclusion?
River
Agapetos
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1. Why does God not talk to us openly?

He spoke openly to the ancient people of Israel. Did it keep them convinced that His way was right?

God still does speak, but it is not on cue or on demand. It is as He wills. Above all, He has put His Spirit inside of us. The Christian life is one of letting God be God to us more and more, and learning to hear His voice within.

There are some who have gifts of hearing Him more audibly than others, but the one thing we all have in common is the Holy Spirit within us. It is written that those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God. Not those who are led by the prophets. God wants us to follow Him from the deepest most internal part of us, not from external leaders or intermediaries. A true prophet will tell you about Jesus Christ and will direct you to the Holy Spirit so that you may hear Him for yourself.

2. Why do we not get to talk to Angels?

Some do. But again, as God deems necessary and only as He wills. It was one of the hardest things for me to see others being blessed with extraordinary gifts but myself receiving nothing. God allowed me to experience that, though, to bring out a root of rejection in my life and heal me from many wounds. And over time I learned that we all hear Him in different ways, and we all need one another because no one gets a complete picture. The body needs each part.

One of my friends had such kind of visual discernment (visions), but he did not always understand what he saw. On the other hand, I didn't have visual discernment but I did have a gift of understanding or interpretation (as God gave it when He saw fit). For a time I felt jealous of my friend's visual seeing, but later he confessed that he was jealous of the understanding I was given. That shocked me. So we are all on the same level ground, equally dependent on God's grace, on faith alone, and on the Holy Spirit who lives in us.

3. Why are there no apparent prophets today?

There are many, but not all are recognized. And recognition matters nothing. What matters is God's heart getting to the people He wants it to get to. If anyone gets in the way of that, then he/she had best beware.

Prophecy is different in the Old Covenant and in the New Covenant. In the Old it was to be the intermediary speaker for God. But in the New it is not. In the New it is one of the gifts in the body. Not to reveal "new truths", but rather to point people to Christ and at times to specifically communicate His heart to someone who needs it.

4. Why must we take our best guesses?

Who says we have to? Rest in Him and ask for all of Him. The process of waiting on Him feels like it will kill you, but that's your flesh speaking. Waiting on Him for understanding, hearing and answers does indeed kill your flesh. This is a good thing. The Spirit has not stopped speaking. But a lot of our flesh has become standardized as well as our impatience, so many people veto the gifting of the Spirit because of that impatience or because of fear of deception. But He is faithful -- He revealed everything in the Bible, and He has not left us alone to interpret it. He's given His Spirit, who guides us into all truth. He can be trusted to do that, and to give us all things we need.

5. Why does God allow us to remain in error?

Er, bro, aren't you here now? :-)
Flyinglady
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 9:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

God has spoken to me twice. The first time in early 1993. I was in Texas and wanting to move back to VA. I was calling various places to whom I had sent resumes to make an appointment. They were all in VA. I called Fauquier Hospital and talked to the rehab director. He and I made an appointment. When I hung up I heard a voice say "That job is yours." I was startled. I said, God, I do not know if that is you talking to me, or me talking to myself. So I am not going to believe it until I see if I get that job. When I went from Texas to VA and was interviewed at the various jobs. I went to this interview. I was offered the job during the interview at a wage more than what the director of Human Resources told me later. I got the higher wage. When I got out to my car I was praising God.
The second time God talked to me was when I was looking for a church to attend after I left adventism for good. I heard this voice in my head that said, "Go to that church on Russell Rd off 95." My reply, "That Big church?" God's reply, "Yes, that big church." Well I went there and the rest is history.
God lets me know things in different ways. I can be talking to a friend, telling her what I am going through and she will give me the answer in what she says. That is God using my friends.
If something does not work out the way I want it and I have done my best to make it work, then that is not what God wants for me.
I also pray a lot. That is how I have experienced how God talks to me.
It just reminds me of how awesome He is.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jim, here's the context of my sentence that God doesn't provide "miracles" for our crises:

Acting in obedience to God's request that we surrender and trust Him is the "place" where we learn His will. He doesn't provide "miracles" for our crises. He provides Himself: peace, trust, the willingess to submit ourselves to His will and to allow Him to be all we need. This place of surrender of our control is where His miracles happen. He Himself is our reward and provision, and He keeps His promises. He gives us all we need, and He gives us life more abundantly.

Actually, He does provide miracles, but usually not the way we think He should. He asks us to trust Him first, to let Him be all we need even without an obvious solution. Once we can allow Him to have control, once we give up our idea of what we want to happen, God very often surprises us with provisions we wouldn't ever imagine.

God has provided in the most startling ways at various times in my life, including physical/spiritual healing, provisions for our lives, etc. But God's miracles usually show up after I've let go of trying to have control over the situations and give them to Him to fix and manage as He sees they should be. God seems to be in the business of bringing me, over and over, to places of being willing to give up what had seemed important in exchange for trust Him and what He would bring to me.

I don't always understand these things...but more and more I find that He is faithful. He DOES provide.

River, I liked your #5 above a lot, too. I've also come to the same conclusion: I alone am to blame for being stuck in deception. I had the Bible! Yes, Lauire, I believe God's timing is at work in my coming to "see", but still, I can't blame Him for my not taking the Bible seriously and at face value.

Colleen
Tricia
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Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 11:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana, Those concrete examples of God speaking to you really helped me. Also, what you said about if God doesn't want something for you how He let's you know, also helped me.
I've said on here before that I sometimes just don't seem to know, or hear his voice, about His will for a situation in my life, or especially a decision that I need to make concerning one of my children, such as where my daughter should go to school next year. I just want to be SURE that what I decide is what only He knows is best for her. I just want to hear Him or Him give me a sign that I really recognize (I guesss I'm slow!) that I'm making the right decision for her. She so desperately needs a positive experience next year. I'm going to continue to pray and listen for his answer. Does anyone have any advise on knowing you're making the right decision that is His will for you or your child?
Thanks again, Diana, for that post.

Tricia
Grace_alone
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Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 6:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tricia, I prayed for good teachers the year after we got a not so great one. The teacher was very nice, and even a Christian, but she had poor class management. It was chaos in her class! Anyway, I prayed not only a "please" prayer for better teachers, but a "Thank you Lord for giving my kids great teachers with good class management" prayer before it happened. It would be nice to get a "sign" as you say, but I have faith that God will be faithful and put the kids where He knows they belong.

My Mom taught me to do the prayers of thanks (even before they happen) because you're actually putting your faith in action. You can say "thanks for the teachers you'll give the kids" or "Thank you for the new friends you have for them", or "Thank you for the wonderful things you have in store for the kids this year". It really changes your focus, and helps take the load off.

Wouldn't you know, last year my kids got WONDERFUL teachers. They both had excellent class management and prepared the kids very well for the new year, in addition to giving them a head start on the next. On the last day of school I remembered my prayer of thanks earlier and thanked God so much for his faithfulness. It was so awesome the way that turned out.

Give it a try ~ God loves you and wants your trust and will bless you and your babies!

:-) Leigh Anne
River
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Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 7:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It seems two or three of you liked my answer to number five there and I want to comment on that, the answer I gave bothered me clear up until the time I went to sleep and my heart was heavy.

What I wrote was for shock effect lest any tend to place blame on God, but it was trite and being smart aleck and simple, it is not as simple as that and that is why my heart was heavy about it.

There are generations of spiritual abuse involved in this thing, it is said in the secular world that the abused becomes the abuser and I think sometimes, not all cases but in probably most cases, this is true.

It is not your fault that you had to grow up in spiritual abuse and this also makes my heart heavy, on the other hand there is nowhere we can turn to quickly place blame, I think blame placing is also a mistake.

I don’t pretend to know why you or I were left in our situation so long, with me it was alcoholism and I was physically and spiritually abused and I became an abuser, but in all things we must trust the wisdom and goodness of God, I believe if we fail to do that, that may become a larger failure.

I don’t see the need to be too hard on ourselves so that we inflict spiritual abuse on ourselves; I think that might grieve God also. There are just some things that we have to put into the hand of our loving Father and go on about our business.

Although there is the fact of generational spiritual abuse in operation in Adventism I see another thing at work and that is a refusal to hear anything but what they have been taught, it is a stubborn refusal to hear anybody else, a stubborn pushing against what anybody else has to say, an almost obstinate bent on remaining where they are. I am talking about Adventist now, not formers. I hear this coming through loud and clear almost daily from them or at least I think I do.

I really don’t know where I want to go with this, but maybe to say I do have love in my heart for you and would not want to inflict any kind of spiritual abuse on you nor cause you to inflict any kind of spiritual abuse on yourselves.

As I mentioned in another thread, it seems as if God has allowed me to peek into Adventism one door at a time, one room at a time, like a big building with many rooms, I started at the front and have been proceeding through rooms one door at a time ever since and just about time I think I have come to the last door another one is opened and another room revealed.
So I have just made up my mind to put it in his hands and where we go, we go.
In the past I have asked “Lord why am I here, is this your will that I be here, what are you doing, why are you doing this if in fact you are doing this?

The old song just came to mind “we’ll understand it better by and by” remember that old song?

By and by Lord when the morning comes, when all the saints of God has gathered home’

We’ll tell the story of how we over come and we’ll understand it better by and by’

I hadn’t remembered that old song in years, but I feel the love of the Holy Spirit in it this morning.
I am not trying to make any point really; I just wanted to talk with you about these things, that’s all.
Thanks for listening, thanks for tolerating me and thanks for your wisdom and understanding.
River
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02

Post Number: 83
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 8:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River,

This is point counter point.
Not sure if I should sound general quarters :-)

I grasp your humorous style. But I felt a need to reply to your somewhat agressive statements.

You Wrote:
I thought it might be challenging to answer these questions line by line.

1. Why does God not talk to us openly?
River:If you mean in an audible voice, if he is in you why does he need to speak outside you?

Jim: I meant that God does not communicate directly as in close encounter of the 3rd kind in a public way, in a way where you can sit down and ask point blank questions. Where you can be taught in a detailed manner such as the Apostles and be able to ask questions with follow up questions. I figure that God has a reason why he is veiled to the world as a whole and only reveals himself by scripture and by The Holy Spirit. I surmise , it is because He wants us to find Him by an effort to search for Him. "Let him take hold of My strength" Sometimes , My questions are presented to gain a shared understanding. Sometimes it is because I have no idea at all. Sometimes it si to see if I missed something. But never is it a game to me.

2. Why do we not get to talk to Angels?
River:What Leigh Anne said.

Jim: I think selected people do. But I was wondering if Angels are (NT setting) incorporated as having ongoing work.

4. Why must we take our best guesses?
River:Do you?

Jim: Yes, apparently I do. Apparently I have in the past , and apparently it has had horendous results !

River:If you truly have the Holy Spirit leading you, why are you having to guess, if he is not leading you he is not in you and you need to repent and come to Christ,

Jim: This is truly a master piece of circular reasoning.
Thus you suggest, If one is confused, not sure, in doubt, but trying to verify, learn, gain conviction, then they are in a state of sin by virtue of the statement in need of repentance.

River: if he is in us and leading us and we are still guessing it is probably lack of faith and confidence in the Lord and his word, I think that is where most of our problems lay, lack of faith in him too lead us.

Jim: It may appear that way. But in my reality it is a matter of unresolved problems that lack solutions to the point discouragemnt sets in.
If I were to stop trying , stop praying , stop reading, stop practicing, then THAT would be a lack of faith ! I avoid judging other people because I have come to relaize people are lost in the maze. Ever see "What dreams may become" Robin Williams Movie? Ever see "As Good as it gets" Jack Nicholson Movie. That is my reality.

5. Why does God allow us to remain in error?
River:Because you were in error, he gave us the Bible fer cryin out loud, at what time did you not have a Bible, were you born in 1312?
He has poured out his Spirit, offered the gifts of the Spirit freely, shed his blood, what else is he supposed to do, get up on Mt Shasta or Pikes Peak er somewhere an beller, yo, you are in error!!!

Jim: So you are saying you never make a comprhension error when reading scripture?
As for God being up on a mountain; Do you not think it a legitimate question as to how you know for sure when it is God leading (talking)? Have you never assumed God was leading in a decision and later found out you were mistaken?
Sometimes, people say God showed me, told me etc.
Yet , that is a subjective reasoning. A mental validation of thoughts.

6. Quote: The SDA have taught me to be wary of any open revelation source such as a False Christ, a Familiar spirit, a False teacher (prophet) and so on.
River:Haaa!! That’s a good one. No other comment.

Jim: Sigh..........
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 599
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 8:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jim, I know you addressed River, but about the error question. it is possible to make a comprehension error when reading scripture. Of course, we're not all Greek or Hebrew scholars. However, if you will read the Bible all by itself and take what it says at face value, you really will understand it. The problem could be if in the past you were reading Ellen more often than the Bible because you trusted in what she said about the Bible, then that's where your issue with error is.

The Bible is true. Sit down and pray that God will open your eyes and help you understand. Trust God's word. You probably won't understand all of it all at once, but you'll discover so much on your own, and learn more and more each day. Remember that each of us continue to learn from it all our lives.

Leigh Anne

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