Archive through June 21, 2007 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 6 » How does God communicate » Archive through June 21, 2007 « Previous Next »

Author Message
River
Registered user
Username: River

Post Number: 903
Registered: 9-2006


Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jim,
Please don't sound general quarters! I apologize to you if you found this offensive, these were short and terse answers that had no depth and were not meant as an offense. I am not your enemy!

I understand that you are honestly seeking for answers and I wish I had them for you.
Please don’t be offended by the silly answers to the one liner questions, I meant you no offense or harm.

As for number 6. Quote: The SDA have taught me to be wary of any open revelation source such as a False Christ, a Familiar spirit, a False teacher (prophet) and so on.
River:Haaa!! That’s a good one. No other comment.

What I meant by that was I thought it funny that Adventist warn about false prophets, get it?

Oh well, Forgive me.
River: Sigh……
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd

Post Number: 271
Registered: 4-2005


Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 9:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guardedly, carefully, hesitantly, and prayerfully submit the following. One of my greaatest fears is that these spiritual experiences, which remain so sacred to me, which literally saved my life, will sound as if I am trumpeting some idea of being "holier than thou."
I actually identify more with Paul as the greatest among sinners, than to claim one ounce of self-righteousness. And I also anticipate comments from non-believers (and the unbelieving/doubting part is alright - it's natural - and I myself have questioned them), indicating I am delusionary.

All I know is that my wife and two other individuals were witnesses to the most powerful encounter / experience which took place in our kitchen on 27 April 1992 which lasted 2 1/2 hours.

In God's mysterious providence He can and does grant visual encounters and conversations with Angels and provide "communications in words and inspirations I knew could not be credited to myself.

Visions can and do take place. The day following my life-changing, miracle-healing visual encounter
(vision - wherein I was conscious the entire time, aware of the presence of my wife and dear friends and communicated to them some of what I was seeing and hearing,(although my eyes remained closed during the entire 2 1/2 hours) ~ when I returned to work, I met a CNA who had been on vacation. We greeted each other with a friendly hug. She pushed me away quickly and loudly exclaimed amazement and fear as she backed several paces back from me and stared. "Wow! What the...?" she
kept saying. I asked what was the matter and she said, "What happened to you? You are charged with some sort of awesome energy. Hugging you was like touching a source of powerful electricity!"

Our Guardians (Angels) NEVER leave us. If I told of my experiences, I doubt anyone would believe them. But they gave me a miraculous "sign," which occasionally still appears to "remind me that they are always with me." And with every believer who is, by faith, in Christ.

I seriously, personally question testimonies of super-Natural encounters by others when what they say they were told is contrary to what I know is in the Bible. Otherwise, I will not judge, but leave that to God, who Alone....truly KNOWS!

I was instantly healed (I just erased the rest of this sentence. I do not feel I should share more.) I simply share this to varify that when God wishes to appear to us, speak to us, or send Angels (singly or in a group) at any location, public or private, in broad daylight, for His own mysterious reason, He does do it!

To His praise and glory, and in the most intimate, conscious love relationship and highest honor of the glorious Angel companions who minister to us who ARE heirs of salvation, I can only say SOLI DEO GLORIA

Jess
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02

Post Number: 84
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 9:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank You Jess,

I envy you in a good way.

I suspect that God is protecting me by not revealing Himself too quickly to me. Perhaps I could not handle it right now.
Sometimes , He is in the still small voice.
I suppose I long to be a part of, or wittness to a spiritual event so much bigger than myself.

But the safety's must be in place.
Deception vs genuine.
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1884
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is a very dangerous practice to talk with angels. Look where it got Ellen White--and the rest of us who followed her (until God set us free!).

Nowhere in Scripture does it even speak of "guardian angels"--and it certainly does not say that we can have conversations with them.

It is important to remember this: Satan and his demons are angels.

The Bible warns us specifically: "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." (2 Corinthians 11:14 NASB.)

If anyone wants more info about the dangers of talking with "guardian angels" and such, visit the following website by Stacie Spielman, who wrote the book Betrayed By Her Guardian Angel:

http://www.staciespielman.com/Angels.html

This lady used to be involved in the occult herself. And as you can see at the above link, she even used to talk with a spirit who called himself her "Guardian Angel." She is now a Christian and has been set free from her occultic past.

This is not harmless stuff, folks! And those who have had a background in Adventism (or other cults) are more likely to experience demonic harassment. Stacie's husband used to be an Adventist and she also says the following on her website:


quote:

"Chet [her husband] recalls that many of the people he knew when he belonged to the Adventist church were victims of demonic harassment. I have also found this to be true of Adventists and former Adventists who contact me through this site."

--http://www.staciespielman.com/shadows_of_the_occult.html




For more of what she has to say about Adventism and the occult, including an experience that her husband had while he was still Adventist, see this previous post of mine.

Jeremy
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 6099
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First, River—what you said about generations of spiritual abuse is very true. In some says we could not help the fact that we were deceived. It was done to us when we were vulnerable, and God did see and allow us to be deceived, knowing He would use even this sin committed against us for His glory.

At the same time, He began giving all of us moments of cognitive dissonance, quesetions we couldn't answer; Bible passages we couldn't comprehend...some of us responded to them, others, like myself, simply blanked them out because above all I wanted to be "good" and "obedient", and I had been carefully taught the "truth". When the Bible or even life itself seemed to contradict the "truth" I believed with all the depth of total brainwashing, I simply ignored the evidence for fear of falling into sin. In many ways I was in a spiritual and philosophical corner from which I could not escape on my own.

Now, however, I understand that as I matured as a person, God began to hold me responsible for my own decisions. While I could not resist the brainwashing done to me as a small child by my equally deceived and brainwashed parents, I could no longer blame my environment for my deception. God began to deal with me as an individual, and HE provided ways for me to know Him.

I believe that regardless of what kind of abuse any of us suffers, ultimately we cannot hold our abusers responsible for our own subsequent acts of abuse. Yes, those who deceived or abused us do carry great responsibility for which God holds them accountable. But God also holds me accountable for perpetrating abuse onto others, even though my past set me up for such perpetrating. This fact is why I responded to your #5 above. I have come to see that I have to own my own responsibility for remaining in my deception—even though I couldn't help being there in the first place.

Jess, thank you for risking sharing your experience. I totally believe that God gives us what He knows we need in order to experience His healing and grace. I can't explain why we don't all have similar experiences, but I know that God is in the business of healing us at the levels of our most profound brokenness and distrust. He really does discipline, teach, and reassure us in ways that demand our trust and obedience in ways we normally fear.

God knows us, and He provides Himself as the answer to every need. He treats each of us completely individually, and His love is specific and personal for each of us. He is amazing, and I am in awe of how He teaches us (He doesn't just let us figure it out on our own!)—but He teaches us to trust Him!

Colleen
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02

Post Number: 86
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River,
I consider you my friend. No problems here.:-)
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd

Post Number: 272
Registered: 4-2005


Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, Jeremy, I expected to have a beward of demons, post. The Bible doesn't use the word Trinity either, but we use that term constantly.
I choose to call them my Guardians meaning Angels.

No "message" or communication I received during this heightened time of spiritual growth, ever directed me away from Christ and the Gospel and I would not trade these blessed experiences for anything.

Jim 02, I was eventually told that these experiences were being withdrawn, to force me to live by faith alone. But they confirmed a reality for me that scepticism can never remove.
We are told to keep our eyes on Jesus. We see Him in His story and His words and those He taught to Paul and the Apostles in the Bible. By
seeking to submit totally to His inner guidiance by His indwelling in Spirit, we can know the transcending union of having Him as our Divine Brother and we, His adopted brothers and sisters in the FATHER'S great family.

Jess
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 6100
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree that seeking experiences with angels is something the Bible never directs us to do. Further, we can't assume someone is speaking for God when they bring us messages from angels. On the contrary, people bearing messages from angels which, they say, are for me to take seriously...well, I don't. In fact, I would run...

I do believe that God communicates to us as He wishes to, and we do have Biblical examples, such as Daniel, Zechariah (father of John the Baptist), Mary, John the Revelator, Paul and Silas in prison, etc. of people who had angelic visits, some of which delivered messages from God.

Jeremy is right that we are not to seek angelic visits. Hebrews 1;14 tells us they are ministering spirits "sent to serve those who will inherit salvation". God sends them as God directs. It is never our call to see or converse with an angel. Sometimes, I believe, God sends angels to us, and we never know (or, in some cases, never know for sure) that we were helped by one. Other times, we know.

Jess, I hear you saying that God sent you healing and reassurance in a way that you needed at a particularly dark time in your life. Absolutely He can send His ministering spirits to do that.

Jeremy's caution is also well taken: the Bible instructs us to seek to know Jesus, to trust Him, to place our faith in His sacrifice for our personal sin. The Bible is clear that all of God's interventions for us are for the purpose of exalting Christ and bringing glory to God as we are transformed by His Spirit and hidden with Christ in God.

As humans, parts of creation just as angels are, we are not to seek angels. We are to seek Jesus. Yes, seeking angels often puts people in touch with demons. To seek angels instead of the Lord Jesus is a form of idolatry—it is placing a created thing ahead of our Creator. We open ourselves to profound deception. (Seeking angels isn't all that different from honoring Sabbath as an entity of blessing—we use God's creation as our point of honor and obedience instead of Jesus Himself.)

We can thank God for knowing us, for for ministering to us through various means, and for providing the protection of His word to help us know how to seek and honor the Lord Jesus and to guard us from deception.

Colleen
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02

Post Number: 87
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Talking about being responsible for error.
Colleen, you have captured the essense of error that comes honest. This is the crux of being decieved. In my stages of growth, I admitt bitterness and perplexity. I was trusting God in the past! I get my thoughts mixed up because I thought I was in the right as a SDA. Now I feel duped and my human brain wants to blame God. I need forgiveness for that! (River-Ping !)
The dissonance really started years ago. The pattern, start , backslide, restart, try harder, get frustrated, no ignition, works, drudgery, why is this not working, fall away, go back, fall away , go back. Perhaps I was in denial, but more so , I was not asking the right questions and I did not realize there was another truth.
So, in my fears. I was stuck too long, way too long. I did a lot of damage to my family, my kids, my wife and myself.
Am I responsible? Ultimately, yes. Even though it was an honest mistake.
My oldest son, the long lost one who is in town after 16 years confronted me about the past relavant to the SDA abuses. What was I supposed to say? he was carrying a grudge of injury over my lame attempts to enforce SDA standards when he was a teenager. An effect that played a large part of his leaving home. He cited the odd man out issues, Sabbath boredoms, no cartoons on Saturday etc. I can't undo that damage !!!!
I cannot reclaim those lost years.

Even so. I accept the reponsibility of staying stuck because I failed to face the dissonance and confront the questions earlier.
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 6102
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 1:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Jim...I completely understand. I have had to ask God to forgive me for many things I did sincerely in my deception. He is faithful, and He redeems everything we submit to Him.

Colleen
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02

Post Number: 88
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 1:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
My guess is you have seen this discovery growth pattern many times over by now.
The common experiences of FAF
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1885
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

Yes, the Bible does of course record visits from holy angels. But what is not Biblical, and has no support from Scripture, is the experience of having recurring visits from the same angel(s), time after time, over a period of time such as years or even a lifetime (like EGW had!). Nobody in the Bible had recurring conversations with (or even visits or messages from) their "guardian" angels (or any type of angel!), or any "guides" or "angel companions."

Unbiblical experiences such as these have no similarity to the experiences recorded in the Bible. They're just plain dangerous!

Jeremy
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1886
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, the experiences in the Biblical accounts were not "casual conversations" with angels. Those who encountered them always feared them and the visits were always for important reasons--commands, prophecies, deliverance, etc.

Jeremy
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd

Post Number: 273
Registered: 4-2005


Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 2:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I was fourteen, there was no communication.
Later, I fell on my knees with my face to the
ground as my first reaction. You'd have to ask
God if His blessing by these encounters were important or not, as I don't think Angels make up their own minds as to what they do in such instances.

As I said, I anticipated doubts and skepticism.
I'm not here to convince you or anyone, only sharing a tiny glimpse of an experience I had.

Jess
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1887
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just for some additional info, according to Sydney Cleveland's list in his book White Washed, nobody in the Bible had more than two separate visits from angels, except for Joseph (husband of Mary) who had 3, which were all commands (to marry Mary, to take Jesus to Egypt, and to take Jesus back to Israel) and were all in dreams.

Jeremy
River
Registered user
Username: River

Post Number: 904
Registered: 9-2006


Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, I am sticking with you like glue here.
River
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 6103
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, I do agree with you. The Bible doesn't give us room to look for repeated or personal visits from angels. In fact, as born again Christ-followers, we have the Holy Spirit communicating directly and personally to us.

Jess, I know you, and I know you honor the Lord Jesus. I am in no position, with my limited knowledge of your situation, to evaluate the circumstances of your experience. I trust the Lord's hand on your life.

I do know, however, that we are instructed to speak directly to our heavenly Father, worshiping the Lord Jesus. I don't want to be misunderstood to be endorsing a phenomenon for which the Bible gives us neither a model nor permission.

Colleen
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos

Post Number: 894
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 3:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jess, thank you for sharing and for having the courage to share.

Daniel had more than one visit from angels, and perhaps Abraham did, too. And if the ladies who saw the angel at the empty tomb were with Jesus when He ascended in Acts 1, then they had two visits as well. But all this does not matter.

Yes, we shouldn't "seek" such encounters, yet if God chooses to send an angelos--a messenger--to us, who are we to refuse God?

The angel that spoke to John the Revelator spoke truly -- Angels of God will point you to Christ who is the Message Himself, and to listening to Him through the Spirit, who is the Spirit that prophesies.

Some will say that because "I" don't need angels to talk to me, or because "I" don't need visions, that nobody else should need them either. Hence if someone shares an experience, many rise up in judgment to say that because "I" didn't need it, their experience is suspect. Yet God speaks to us all in different ways. Who are we to judge the ways that God leads us to Himself? If God chooses to speak to one through a vision, or another with a messenger (angelos), or through another with intensive Bible study, or still to another through a publication put out by people who used to be part of a cult, who are we to judge? The important thing is that we all know God, and more important that He knows us.
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos

Post Number: 895
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 3:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

P.S. The concept of guardian angels arises from when Jesus said that children's angels see the face of Father in heaven. Saying that children have "their angels" suggests a kind of guardianship of sorts. It's a traditional belief, but nothing to be dogmatic about.
River
Registered user
Username: River

Post Number: 906
Registered: 9-2006


Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 6:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agapatoes,
Good morning (or) evening as the case may be.

I don’t think anyone is refusing what God does, nor Jess sincerity or his experience, nor is anyone saying it is not of God, nor is there a desire to rebuke, refute, or reject Jess nor anyone else.

Jess said himself he expected a beware of demons post, Jess indicates that nothing in the world will convince him that it was not of God, I have had many experiences that I have shared that I know people hold in tension and yet nothing anyone can ever say to make me disbelieve what God has done in my life.

Further more I thank God for Jess and what God has done. I would like to hear a more detailed explanation of the matter, especially the words used, what he was told in detail, but that is Jess’s prerogative, and it just may be that what Jess was told was for Jess’s ears only.
I think that sometimes God does speak to us things that are not meant to be taken public, not that this was the case here, this too I hold in tension.

No doubt it took courage Jess and I for one appreciate the sharing, for myself I just have to hold these things in tension.

Personally and not speaking for others, I am neither rejecting nor endorsing the matter, I don’t disrespect Jess one iota because of what he said.

What I say isn’t important but I wanted to speak plain and to the point so that there is no misunderstanding on my part.

Jess, I hope it does not hurt you because I hold these things in tension for now.

I just can’t see anything anyone said as “rising up in judgment” if that is what you meant Agapatoes, maybe I am naïve.

In my own opinion there are many things which we all should hold in “tension” and not rush head long to judgment either for or against a matter.

So rather than use the word doubts and skepticism I would rather use the word “to hold in tension”, I think it is a more fitting word to describe the thinking here. At least on my part it is.

Jim, I did request prayer for your situation last night at church and I had you on my heart last Sunday morning during service, I believe it was God that laid you on my heart to pray for you, God cares, keep on keeping on.
River

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration