Post Number: 1
|Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 9:10 am: || |
I am a new here and am hoping to find a little help if anyone is interested.
First let me say that I am a former Adventist that left the church about 25 years ago. My wife and I are secure in our belief in Christ our Savior. We have been active in the Christian community for many years. I have been relatively conversant in refuting SDA doctrine, until now.
The problem is our families have begun to attack us with a new level of intensity that I have not seen before and we have become weary of the battle. The major problem is the veil described in II Cor 3 is darker than ever. Just quoting scripture does not seem to be enough. There is a religious spirit that we are battling against and feel that we need spiritual support in prayers and knowledge.
I have been careful not to allow EGW to be included in the conversation, but then there is the constant drum beat of the Catholic Church and the influences it had, and will have
I need help in sourcing scripture, various translations of scripture, current info on EGW etc. research on statements by the Catholic Church that continue to be used by SDAs but are no longer relevant or outright false.
Specifically we are praying for the eyes and hearts of our family to be opened to the completed work of Christ, and that we rest in His righteousness from the works of the law
I hope I have found the right place for some help.
Post Number: 1023
|Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 10:48 am: || |
I fully agree that there is a spiritual force behind Adventism that drives it, others on the website agree.
I am convinced that anytime that one encounters Adventism that he encounters this spirit and its not a good spirit.
For one thing I believe it is a spirit of deception.
I will be praying for you and your family, on the scripture and other points you mentioned, could you be more specific, others will be along so don't go away, give the forum time to work.
Post Number: 412
|Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 11:03 am: || |
First of all, I would like to welcome you to FAF. There are a multitute of sources for the types of material you are looking for. You might check out the Links section on this website. Look for Mark Martin's, Clay Peck's, and Dirk Anderson's sites.
Jay, I have to tell you that it is futile to argue theology with a diehard Adventist. For them the clear word of Scripture is and never will be enough. They could attend church next Saturday, and even if the sermon was preached by the Apostle Paul, of Jesus Christ Himself, but it disagreed with Adventism's fundamental beliefs or Ellen White, they would challenge it and consider it wrong. You don't believe me? It happens every week, if the sermons were taught on John 5:24, Romans 14, Colossians 2, or Hebrews. Its the same thing.
So my friend, save your breath, and live your life, as you have been guided by the Holy Spirit, and let the Holy Spirit work on their hearts and minds.
I understand it is a difficult task to not be frustrated by those, that will not consider anything new or allow the Bible to speak for itself. We have to in these situations just let God, be God.
Blessings and Peace on your journey,
Post Number: 106
|Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 11:10 am: || |
Welcome! The whole purpose of this forum is to mutually provide a "family" of those who are former Adventist who now focus on Jesus Christ and his plan of salvation for our lives. Our reason for being here is to provide the very help you are asking for.
I have been out of the SDA church for over fifty years and, like you, I am conversant on Bible doctrine that proves that SDA theology is wrong and that they are a cult. And, like you, wish to stand by my faith in such a way my SDA family will be removed from the "veil of darkness" they are in.
Next month, at our family reunion, I hope to bring a message from the Bible that will lift this "blindness of theirs". A direct assault would be to focus on Ellen G. White and prove her to be a false prophet. However, I am thinking a more indirect approach might have better results. So, you see, I am asking pretty much the same thing you are looking for.
A book that I found very informative on Ellen G. White is:
White Washed by Sydney Cleveland
It can be found at the following website which has a lot of other helpful information:
Post Number: 46
|Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 11:29 am: || |
I have spent a lot of time over the past few months thinking about how to get through to the SDA's in my life. Someone recently posted that the way that they saw the way out of Adventism was by the love that was shown by their spouse without criticism of the Adventist doctrines. When I look back at my life I was reached for the Lord through a friend in high school who was a caring friend to me but did not ever question my beliefs (to me openly anyway). I saw something in her life that was lacking in mine. With that said my conclusion is that our witness is our lives and the personal relationship we have with Christ. I think that many Adventsts will quietly question some of their beliefs and notice where we are but we will be the last to know this. I think about the passage where it talks about the unbelieving husband being won to the Lord by the believing wife "without a word but with a gentle and quiet spirit". Hard to do but I believe it is the right way. Phil, at your family reunion share what Jesus means to you - that has to move them.
Post Number: 6257
|Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 12:40 pm: || |
Welcome, Jay. You have come to the right place. Your experience is really moving to me—the fact that you recognize the spiritual power behind the arguments is really significant. Richard just read your post, too, and he made a really insightful observation. He said that over the past few years, thousands and thousands of people have been and continue to leave the Adventist church. As those who recognize the power of the cross and Jesus' subsitution for us leave local Adventist churches, this hemorrhage cannot help but change the dynamics in the local Sabbath School classes. Those remaining will be less influenced and moderated by those who are wanting to know Jesus and seeking to understand the gospel. Those that remain will be more cultic and more angry. The spirit of Adventism will be less squelched by the presence of those who are looking for Jesus.
Jay, as Randy and Blessed said, it is unlikely that ongoing discussions will be profitable. Unless they really want to know the truth, discussions will be just arguments.
I believe that we do have to speak the truth to them, and right after we leave is often the opportune time. They're shocked and curious, and there's a window of openness for speaking. Those who don't want to hear, however, will shut down and become defensive or hostile.
Sometimes we just have to simply lift our loved ones up to God and ask Him to deal with them and to give us the grace to refuse to argue. The hardest part of all this is that sometimes, if there's not going to be an argument, there'll be only very superficial discussion. It's uncomfortable and even "boring"--as if everyone's walking around a giant elephant in the room and pretending it's not there. (In fact, that's exactly what everyone's doing!)
But the distance that's created between those who leave and those who remain is inevitable. It's what Jesus said would happen; He came not to bring peace but a sword. It is only by the grace of God that we can love them for Him and refuse to be drawn into argument.
The one thing you can always do—and there can't be any real argument about it—is to speak of your own experience with the Lord. They may want to discount it or say it's the devil deceiving you, but they really can't argue. Your love for the Lord and intimate interaction with Him will definitely create cognitive dissonance in them. And cognitive dissonance is the first step towards asking the hard questions. Some people "go there"; others back away in fear and regroup.
Ask God to give you His words and wisdom and to prepare their hearts, making you aware of opportunities He brings to speak for Him. He will hold your heart in peace in spite of their anger.
Post Number: 2
|Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 1:25 pm: || |
Thank you all for your kind words. I went to the links and, "DUH" scrolled down to the extensive links.
I guess it should not be surprising to me that others have encountered the same religious spirit. What saddens me is that many of my SDA family are truly desirous of a close walk with Jesus. All of your responses have given me a better perspective It does help to know that I am not alone in this battle.
I will begin to digest the advice and the materials that are on the linked web sites.
Post Number: 413
|Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 1:49 pm: || |
A couple of other resources you will find helpful include Greg Taylor's book on the New Covenant, and the "Message to Adventists" posted on the banner at http://forthegospel.org. This message, prepared by the folks at "For The Gospel" is a terrific appeal to our Adventist friends. It is full of Scripture, and is non-confrontational in its presentation.
Thanks again for joining in,
Post Number: 6263
|Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 2:03 pm: || |
Jay, you are so not alone. The most powerful thing you can do for your Adventist family is to pray for them. It is a miracle of God when one begins to see the truth. Only the Holy Spirit can effect this change.
Ask God to show you how to love them for Him--not for your sake, not even for their own sakes, but to love them for Him. You don't have to know "what to do". If you are willing and available to God, He can love them through you. He knows what they need.
Post Number: 1024
|Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 3:06 pm: || |
Quote: Richard just read your post, too, and he made a really insightful observation. He said that over the past few years, thousands and thousands of people have been and continue to leave the Adventist church. As those who recognize the power of the cross and Jesus' subsitution for us leave local Adventist churches, this hemorrhage cannot help but change the dynamics in the local Sabbath School classes. Those remaining will be less influenced and moderated by those who are wanting to know Jesus and seeking to understand the gospel. Those that remain will be more cultic and more angry. The spirit of Adventism will be less squelched by the presence of those who are looking for Jesus.
Colleen, that about floored me, I never thought of that.
I continue to be astounded daily, but that is the most astounding statement I have seen in a long time, thank God for your wisdom and dedication to him.
One thing that will stop mouths Jay is giving God glory for you salvation, just begin to praise him and glorify him. I am in contact with hard line Adventist Daily and I just do that when I get the chance.
I have become to decide that arguing with them will not work.
Post Number: 3961
|Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 6:28 pm: || |
Welcome to FAF Jay. I cannot add anything to what has been said. Pray for your relatives and pray some more. We have a prayer circle very Friday evening at sundown in our own time zones and on Saturday afternoon at 1 PM Pacific time and 4 PM East Coast time and what every the time is in your area. This is when we pray for all SDA.
You are not alone any more. You have found a family that can pray with and for you and will help you on your walk with Jesus.
He is so awesome.
Post Number: 21
|Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 2:25 pm: || |
I was SO certain that the SDA church was the one true church, just over a year ago. A friend of mine had been arguing with me off and on for about two years. I didn't know it, but she was praying and fasting off and on for me. She was getting discouraged and told the Lord that she would just wait for Him to tell her what to say. The Lord indicated to her that she was to wait until the subject of Jesus being Michael the archangel came up. She waited and waited... until I finally brought up that subject - I don't remember just why - but then she showed me a couple texts; one of them being Daniel 10:13 which says that Michael is "one of the chief princes." That didn't make sense to me because Jesus is God, so I was willing to look further and see if perhaps Ellen White was a false prophet. Next I read an article that my friend had printed off about someone who had noticed that the Bible says that Jesus had entered the Most Holy Place at His ascension; He didn't wait until 1844. That convinced me that Ellen White was indeed a false prophet and then one by one, I discovered that other core SDA doctrines were false.
Now I'm enthusiastically trying to persuade my SDA relatives that Ellen White is false and that the Bible says entirely different things than what SDAs believe. To my amazement, they (so far) are not buying it. I've been writing a lot to one of my sisters in particular, because she's been writing back a lot. One of the things I pointed out to her is something that Ellen White wrote in the book, "Patriarchs and Prophets" in the chapter "After the Flood." EGW quotes that text in Genesis 9:3 where God told Noah "every moving thing that lives shall be food for you..." then EGW, in her very next sentence, says that Noah was given the "clean beasts" to eat. My sister seemed to think that over and then she wrote back that the text in Gen. 9:3 contradicted the rest of the Bible. I couldn't believe it!!!!!
Anyway I have plans to attend Sabbath School at one of the SDA churches in the area this week, because the Sabbath School lesson is about Abraham and Sarah. They mention Hagar in it too. I think that will be the perfect opportunity to point out how Sarah and Hagar represent the two covenants (Gal. 4:22-26). I'm praying about it and hoping that I can say a LOT about the covenants!!!
Post Number: 667
|Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 3:47 pm: || |
Dianne, Thanks for sharing that story about you and your friend. I have been praying for my husband and in-laws for about a year now. My husband attends my Lutheran church with me and our kids, but if I bring up the IJ and Sunday laws he still believes in those. My in-laws are hard core SDA's and a whole other story! It gets a little discouraging, but your post is inspiring me to keep on track.
Please keep us updated on your experience with the SS lesson.
Post Number: 23
|Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 7:51 am: || |
I just hope that I have something good to report from going to that Sabbath School class! I'm praying about it
(P.S. My username is asurprise, because learning that the SDA church was a false church came as a complete surprise to me.)
Post Number: 74
|Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 10:13 am: || |
i wouldn't even know how to broach the subject of the sda religion being built upon false doctrines. my husband attends church with me, we are not raising our kids sda, and he never brings up anything sda, so i would hate to "rock the boat". but i know in his heart and mind he doesn't personally know Jesus. and it is tough being in a relationship and raising a family when you are not "equally yoked". there is nothing to cling to together during the hard times. i am not even sure if he knows what the IJ is, or that sda believe Jesus was once michael, or if he really understands the paranoia surrounding the sunday law thing, or that his family's life is completely dictated by this religion (cult, sect, whatever). i pray that God can show me an opening to talk about these things with him in a way my husband will respond too. again, this forum has given me so much insight into adventism i think i understand it better than them (husband, relatives). it is eerie how all of the experiences and upbringing that i have read about on this forum is identical to my husband's.
Post Number: 83
|Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 11:45 am: || |
If he's attending church with you, it may be that specific doctrine isn't his biggest obstacle. I think maybe its difficult for him to accept that non-Adventists can be real Christians, especially as he probably doesn't have a good idea of what that means to begin with. Maybe that leaves preaching the gospel without words and letting the Holy Spirit work. Use all the tools you have to deepen your devotion and prayer life so its doesn't seem so bleak when hard times come. I was in a similar situation when I returned to Christianity. My husband was baptized Catholic but not practicing and very vocally agnostic. He opposed to my returning to church and was really opposed to my taking the kids and 'exposing them to nonsense'. There was nothing I could say to move him, I had to give him some space and let the Holy Spirit do the talking. The kids adjusted well and were happy, so he gave in on that. It took him a while, but he did come around and return to the sacraments and I feel very very blessed to have my entire family with me now.
Post Number: 6284
|Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 10:02 pm: || |
Good advice, MarysRoses--Nicole, you might find courage from 1 Peter 3:1-6. For me, the most compelling part of this passage is the ending, that we are Sarah's daughters if we "do what is right and do not give way to fear.
The only way not to give way to fear is to rely on Jesus through the indwelling Holy Spirit, allowing Him to be our strength and trusting His faithfulness. But our fear can become a HUGE emotional pressure for our husbands. (I speak from experience, here!)
On the other hand, God does sometimes open up opportunities for us to speak. Ask Him to prepare your husband's heart and to give you His timing and His words, to keep your heart trusting and faithful. I continue to pray for you and your husband, Nicole.