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Jamundson
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Username: Jamundson

Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 6:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am looking for info on the persecuted Waldenses during the middle ages. Adventist claim they were killed because of Sabbath worship. My reading of this history makes no mention of this. Can anyone give me some links on this subject.
Please

thanks
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 3991
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I went to a search engine, typed in Waldenses and got this and many more.
Diana
The Waldensians, Waldenses or Vaudois are a Christian denomination believing in poverty and austerity, promoting true poverty, public preaching and the literal interpretation of the scriptures. They originated in the late 12th century (around 1173) as the Poor Men of Lyons, a band organized by Peter Waldo, a wealthy merchant of Lyon, who gave away his property around 1176 and went about preaching apostolic poverty as the way to perfection.

They went to Rome, where Pope Alexander III blessed their life but forbade preaching (1179) without authorization from the local clergy. They disobeyed and began to teach unorthodox doctrines; they were formally declared heretics by Pope Lucius III in 1184 and by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. In 1211 more than 80 were burned as heretics at Strasbourg, beginning several centuries of persecution. The movement was brutally persecuted during the 12th and 13th centuries and nearly totally destroyed, but the Waldensian Church survives to this day.

Some Waldenses, and other groups seeking to trace their history through the Waldenses, claim that the Waldenses history extends back to the apostolic church, while the mainstream academic view is that the Waldensians were followers of Peter Waldo (or Valdes or Vaudes).

Contents [hide]
1 History
1.1 The Catholic response to Waldensians
1.2 Reformation
2 Ancient origin account
3 Waldensian religion
4 Assessment by later groups
4.1 Seventh-day Adventist assessment
5 Waldensian translations of the Bible
6 Modern Waldensians
6.1 In Italy
6.2 In South America
6.3 In the United States of America
6.4 In Germany
7 Famous Waldensians or people of Waldensian ancestry
8 References
8.1 Notes
8.2 Further reading
9 See also
10 External links
Jamundson
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Username: Jamundson

Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 6:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks flyinglady but I was particularly interested in the claim by SDA's that they were Sabbath keepers. I was hoping for some links on this aspect
Jorgfe
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Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 404
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.ellenwhite.org/gc1.htm

quote:

"I spent several hours searching for an answer in the two scholarly volumes Storia dei Valdesi--(History of the Waldenses), authored by Amedeo Molnar and Augusto Hugon. These two books were published in 1974 by the Claudiana, which is the official Italian Waldensian publishing house. They are regarded as the most comprehensive history of the Waldenses. To my regret I found no allusion whatsoever to Sabbathkeeping among the Waldenses."

Dr. Bacchiocchi is not the first Adventist to search in vain for evidence of the Waldenses keeping the Sabbath. The only thing researchers have found thus far are some documents which refer to the Waldenses by their nickname, "insabbati." Unfortunately for Mrs. White, the term has nothing to do with the Sabbath. It refers to the sandals the Waldenses were known to wear. The Latin word for sandals is sabbatum. Thus, the Waldenses were insabbati--"sandal wearers."

A Waldensian minister in Italy was contacted and asked if the Waldenses ever kept the Sabbath. Here is his response:

"The Waldensians did not keep the Sabbath and were not guardians of the "Sabbath Truth" as you call it. ... We can therefore say very clearly that the Waldensians were not Seventh-day Sabbath keepers and they were not persecuted for keeping Saturday as the Sabbath!" (click here to read the entire letter)

Apparently Mrs. White wanted to have a line of unbroken Sabbath-keeping, from the time of the Apostles, to the Waldenses in the mountains of Europe, all the way through to the time of the Seventh-day Adventists. Unfortunately, such a continuum does not exist. Sunday-keeping began much earlier than Mrs. White realized, and the Waldenses never kept the Sabbath at all.



http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Articles/waldensians/tabid/449/Default.aspx

quote:

What About the Waldensians?

The following is an email response by a Waldensian Minister to the question about Waldensian Sabbath-keeping. The Waldensians are reportedly the ones who kept the "Sabbath Truth" and were persecuted for it from the 16th through the 19th centuries. We have concealed the name to protect identity.

¨ ¨ ¨ ¨ ¨ ¨ ¨

My name is T. , Waldensian Minister in Italy, in charge - by our Board, to answer to your letter.

If you are interested in the Waldensian Churches in Italy (North, Center, and South Italy) and in Uruguay and Argentina, in past and present you can try to find and study the following books:

1) Giorgio Tourn, You are my witnesses - The Waldensians across 800 years , Claudiana Editor 1989 - Distributed in North America by P.O. Box 37844 - CINCINNATI, OH 45222 (USA).
2) Prescot Stephens, The Waldensians Story - A study in Faith, intolerance and survival, The Book Guild Ltd - Lewes, Sussex, 1998.

The Waldensian Churches are Reformed Presbyterian Churches: they were called in Latin: Mater Reformationis (=Mother of the Reformation) as they were before an old Middle Ages movement, but NOT a Church . They adopted the Huguenot Confession of faith, so called "De la Rochelle" of 1559 (but really of the Paris Synod, their first Huguenot General Assembly), but in 1655 the Waldensian Churches had its own Confession of Faith, hurriedly drafted in Italian immediately after the massacre of the Waldenses called "Piedmonts Easters". This was simply a shortened version in Italian of the Huguenot Confession of faith of 1559: it confirmed that in theology the Waldenses were in the mainstream of Presbyterian Calvinism . It is still the basis to this day of Waldensian beliefs, which the Candidates have to undersign in front of the General Assembly before becoming Ministers in our churches.

The Waldensians did not keep the Sabbath and were not guardians of the "Sabbath Truth" as you call it. The Waldensians never followed the Seventh-day Adventist but they follow more: Romans 14,5-8 then other truths.

We can therefore say very clearly that the Waldensians were not Seventh-day Sabbath keepers and they were not persecuted for keeping Saturday as the Sabbath! They were persecuted, from 1535 (when they joined the Reformation) to 1848 (when they received religious freedom), because of their Reformed-Calvinistic (Protestant) faith in Christ.

With my best regards, yours,

T . - Waldensian Minister in Italy



While you are at it you should research the other group Ellen White spoke highly of -- the Albigensians. The had some truly bizarre beliefs!
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Albigensian&spell=1

Gilbert Jorgensen
Jamundson
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Username: Jamundson

Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 7:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jorgfa, thats what I was looking for
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 6325
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jamundson, there's a statement on our LifeAssuranceMinistries.org website by a couple of Waldensian pastors. You can find it here:

http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/studies/waldenses.html

Indeed, they were not Sabbath-keepers.

Colleen
Jorgfe
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Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 405
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 12:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen! Wow! I can't believe I have never seen your new pages at http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/ before. They are stunning. Absolutely beautiful.

Is there a link anywhere between FAF and this site?

Gilbert Jorgensen
Reb
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Username: Reb

Post Number: 386
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 6:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where EGW may have gotten this claim about the Waldenses and the Sabbath was their nickname "Insabbati". Remember, EGW was uneducated and no linguiust and she saw the word "Insabbati" and thought it had something to do with the Sabbath. No it didn't Insabbati means sandal-wearers after the Waldenses' choice of footwear at that time, wearing sandals was in keeping with their practice of humility.
Wolfgang
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Username: Wolfgang

Post Number: 160
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW this letter is awesome,just more lies that I'm finding out,my goodness how much more. I posted a letter on myspace bulletin about Rodney Vega death and the hospitals negligance and the church as well. I got a reply from a very dear person that said in every church Im going to more or less find bad behaviour. And I agreed I know I will but why does this church stay silent about such matters? and that shouldnt we be trying to keep those in power honest? Dawn
Jorgfe
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Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 410
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dawn, As you know, "in the church" and "over the church" are two entirely different things.

This is an issue of leadership malfeasance. The Rodney Vega death is tragic, especialy in light of the Adventist Health Systems directors paying themselves $2-3 million a piece! The White Estate is equally derelict for the emotional trauma, lies, and scandelous coverup they continue to foist off on a trusting laity and the public. A.G Daniels did the same thing at the 1919 Bible Conference by filing away their discussion of problems with Ellen White for 50 years. For that, there is no excuse.

Gilbert Jorgensen
Jamundson
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Username: Jamundson

Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gilbert, Could you give more info on the subject of Rodney Vega's death and the connection to AHS
Jorgfe
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Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 413
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://wherethemoneygoes.com/newSearch.php?SearchString=Rodney+Vega

quote:

An oversight concerning not-for-profit Adventist Health System Sunbelt.
Description: Profits. Published: March 9, 2007
I have been so caught up in reporting the disgraceful conduct of this so called faith based system with regards to Rodney Vega, that I realized that I don't believe I have ever reported the profits for this entire system for 2005.
Well, according to the annual report, profits for year end 12/31/05 were $251,400,000!

Just over a quarter of a billion dollars.

Profits in the three previous years came in as follows.

2002--$170.6 MILLION.

2003--$203.1 MILLION.

2004--$236.2 MILLION.

Add them together, and you will see that in just four years, this not-for-profit hospital has made $861.3 MILLION in PROFITS!

You could see how they might have felt that caring for Rodney Vega the son of a Seventh-day Adventists Pastor, might have been too expensive.

They will tell you that "Today, our mission of extending the healing ministry of Christ depends not only on our commitment to Christian ideals but on our efforts to provide nothing less than extraordinary compassionate care."

Tell that to Rodney Vega's mother.




quote:

Description: An update on the promise of Pastor Orville Parchment. Published: May 12, 2006
58 days ago I wrote this. "Speaking of the 7th Day Adventists-where are you Pastor Orville Parchment?
Published: March 3, 2006

What now in retrospect looks like a publicity stunt, it has been 246 days since Pastor Orville Parchment, the 2nd highest ranking member of the 7th Day Adventist Church in North America knelt and prayed for young Rodney Vega, who's mother alleged had been turned away for treatment by a not-for-profit 7th Day Adventist hospital simply because he was uninsured.

What makes this story particularly appalling is the fact that Rodney's father is a pastor in this church.

After kneeling he promised Rodney's mother to investigate her claims.

It has now been 194 days since Pastor Orville Parchment told the Washington Post that he had not had the time to "dig deeply" into the charges."

As I said originally, now 304 days ago, the fact that the not-for-profit 7th Day Adventist Hospitals have almost $2 BILLION in the bank-is a powerful reason for Pastor Orville not to dig deeply.

Making money in the name of our Lord is very profitable and should not be questioned or dug deeply into!

And oh by the way-in my mind not a man of God-but a phony!




quote:

$22,000.
Description: More on Rodney Vega. Published: July 13, 2005
That's the total income last year for the family of young Rodney Vega.
Or the equivalent of what Robert Carmen, the Sec-Exec VP-COO of not for profit 7th Day Adventist Health Systems-West makes less than every 72 hours!



http://wherethemoneygoes.com/printArticle.php?id_art=249

quote:

Meet the not-for-profit 7th Day Adventist Florida Hospital team
Description: Salaries of the not-for-profit 7th Day Adventist Florida Hospital team Published: June 3, 2005

Sandra K. Johnson
Vice President, Business Development
Total compensation.
2000--$221,488
2003--$369,740

Gary Skilton
Vice President/Senior Treasury Officer
Total compensation
2000--$305,716
2003--$404,690
Brent Snyder
Senior Vice President/SFO, Senior Vice President/Information Services
Total compensation
2000--$333,963
2003--$462,342
Robert Henderschedt
Senior Vice President/Administration
Total compensation
2000--$429,550
2003--$585,800
Terry Shaw
Senior Vice President/CFO
Total compensation
2000--$436,627
2003--$586,183
Donald L. Jernigan
Executive Vice President
Total compensation
2000--$586,870
2003--$879,901
Thomas L. Werner
President/Ceo
Total compensation
2000-$715,088
2003--$1,077,598
Rodney Vega
The child of a 7th Day Adventist Pastor, dying of a brain tumor, who was turned away by Florida Hospital because he was uninsured.



http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Rodney+Vega%22

Gilbert Jorgensen
Jorgfe
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Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 414
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was mistaken about the $2-3 million a piece. Looks like it is slightly over $1,000,000 in 2003.

Gilbert Jorgensen
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1164
Registered: 4-2000


Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting facts, Gilbert. I personally know one medical executive on that list--a native from North Dakota. They have typically included various SDA leaders (board members) when vacationing in exotic places. Of course, the minister's fun trip was fully paid for them. Consequently, the same minister-board members would find it extra difficult to disagree with the very ones who lavished perks on them as well. Remember the days when SDA hospital administrators had a salary capped at $30,000.00 (not higher than a SDA ordained minister)? As a group, I understand that the SDA hospital executives are very liberal, secular, and mostly cultural Adventists. They don't relate well with the average Adventist in the pew.

Dennis Fischer
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 4008
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 8:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They do not relate well with the average patient either.
Diana
Loneviking
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Post Number: 564
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And you should see how they treat their employees. I've seen it and it's disgraceful.

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