| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 420 Registered: 11-2005 |
Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 271 Registered: 7-2005  |
Gilbert, this is just exactly the kind of stuff that kept me from ever putting my faith in EGW when I was an Adventist. I would ask my fellow Adventists, "How did Ellen know this kind of thing? She wasn't there. The Bible doesn't say anything like this." The answer I was usually given was that she was "shown" these things by God. I always wondered why Christians today would need God to show someone this kind of detail to embellish Bible stories. To me it's the epitome of audacity for EGW to claim she was giving forth wisdom from heaven. If, on the other hand, she had portrayed her writings as Biblical novels, that I could handle. We have some excellent authors today who write novels based on Bible stories. If EGW had claimed nothing more exalted than a certain level of literary creativity, I would probably enjoy reading her books. But I can't give my support in any way to the belief that she was "shown" this kind of thing as a special messenger from God. Honestwitness | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 120 Registered: 5-2007  |
Plants were meant for food for all living creatures, including mankind. What is eaten, after it passes through the body, ends up as nutrients to replenish the soil so plants can continue to be healthy and produce more food. Green herbs, in the quote below, in many cases are the leaves of the plant that we eat. To say a leaf that falls to the ground and decays is any different from other leaves that we eat and end up on the same ground is foolishness. Strictly speaking, this is another contradiction with scripture. Gen. 1:29,30 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. Phil | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 91 Registered: 4-2007 |
Drivel! | ||
| Treasurehntr Registered user Username: Treasurehntr Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2007 |
Thats the kind of quote that corrupts our belief system. Those statements get filed away in our minds and then surface years later when we least expect it. Agreed Jonvil, absolute Drivel! | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2007 |
Phil, Can we then add marijuana to our cookie recipes? "Every herb bearing seed" in this case means most herbs that bear seeds? ha! | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 121 Registered: 5-2007 |
Well Larry, In my heart I want to say no because of the known effects of marijuana on a persons body. But, in truth, I am not sure of the answer to your question. It just may be that not all parts of all plants were created for consumption as food. Marijuana, as an example, is also good for making rope. Trees make good lumber but I would not want to eat wood. I am only saying that a leaf falling to the ground and begining the process of decay is not much different than eating it only to have it end up on the ground. So, the question would be; Is the decay of plant life an indication of sin in the world? I would like to pass this question on to someone with a theological background. Is there any scripture to support this one way or the other? Phil | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 92 Registered: 4-2007 |
A flower several billion years old would require some dusting - maybe that is what our work will be, dusting an absolutely static landscape where absolutely nothing dies or if there is new growth but the old never dies the earth will become an incredibly dense ball of plant life + untold numbers of animals. JONVIL JONVIL | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 94 Registered: 4-2007 |
supposition: I believe immortality was granted to humans, not nature. JONVIL | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2007 |
But isn't that like saying there was death before man sinned? It is a sticky wicket when we do not know exactly how God chooses to create or run a universe! | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 124 Registered: 5-2007 |
Larry, If eating plants had anything to do with death with reference to sin then we would not be able to eat until sin entered the world. So, my answer is no, "death" has to do with people and the animal world. I believe that the decay of a "leaf" has nothing to do with sin. In Gen. 4:3-5, Abel's offering was accepted by God but Cain's was not. It appears to me that God could only accept an animal sacrifice because something out of the garden had nothing to do with sin. Only the firstlings of Able's flock could represent our true sacrifice, Jesus Christ. Phil | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6356 Registered: 12-2003  |
Treasurehntr, I so relate to your comment above that those types of quotes from Ellen are the sorts of things that get filed away and surface when we least expect them. I remember during the years preceding our departure that I had less and less confidence in Ellen. I got to the place where I essentially "dismissed" her, considering her--in true Progressive Adventist fashion--an important historical figure and a sometimes important devotional or "shepherding" voice for the church. Even during those years, however, when I would think about certain subjects about which I had questions or some confusion—such as heaven, whether or not meat causes cancer(!), end times/time of trouble/mark of the beast, etc—I would find myself falling back on what Ellen said about those subjects. I remember clearly that I would think, "Well, we have Ellen, and whether or not she was really a prophet, she might have been, and what she said might actually be true." I remember how hard it was to stop referring to her vivid description and declarations that seemed so much more clear and detailed than the Bible. I went through an extended period of withdrawal during which I went from being grateful that I had Ellen to fill in what I didn't know to being guarded, considering her words to be possibly true--to the feeling of being "high and dry" without any commentary to help me understand what the Bible didn't detail. Some of the more deeply ingrained Ellen-isms, especially those I was taught about diet, still have a subtle (although weakening) effect on me. It took me several years to be able to eat meat at home on any sort of semi-regular basis. Even though I got over believing any meat was unclean and understood that eating moderate amounts of certain meats was more healthful than was eating cheese or large amounts of soy or peanut butter, I still retained a deep, non-verbal, irrational fear that JUST MAYBE meat would lead to my developing cancer or some other horrific disease. (Ellen, of course, linked the two and I know I as well as many others were actively taught that cancer and other dread diseases were caused by eating meat.) I had to actually THINK and act on faith to begin eating turkey in my lunch if I packed it at home. Somehow buying turkey or chicken as part of my routine diet seemed unsafe. Ellen just keeps surfacing when we least expect her. I believe, though, that God knows what lies we have to give up and unlearn, and He brings us face to face with them when the time is right. We can trust Him to finish what He begins in us! We, however, must be willing to be obedient to Him when He shows us reality. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 69 Registered: 7-2007 |
It's hard to witness to one of my sisters, (actually it's hard to witness to all three of them!) because she "feels" the Holy Spirit speaking to her through Ellen White's writings. As frustrating as that is, I was able to use that in witnessing to a couple suit-clad young Mormon men who came to my door awhile back. (Mormons claim the Bible text James 1:5 which promises wisdom and then they pray and read their prophet Joseph Smith's books. They then get this strong "feeling" or "conviction" that Joseph Smith's words are true.) Anyway, I told them about my sister's warm "conviction" as to the truth of Ellen White and I saw a look of uncertainty come into the eyes of one of them. (They believe that "warm conviction" or "burning in the bosom" or "testimony" as I've also heard it called, is all they need to convince them that Joseph Smith it true.) I've pointed this out to my sister as well as contradictions between Ellen White and the Bible and she still believes in Ellen White. I can't give up on her though, of course. (Another of my sisters is actually a Mormon, so I've looked into their beliefs so I could try to reach her. Mormons are different from SDAs in that Mormons are WAY off from the Bible and SDAs are much more subtly off.) Dianne |
