| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1132 Registered: 9-2006  |
About every eight months we finish the Bible cover to cover, year after year, and it never seems to fail that I see something new in the scripture, not new to scripture but a new depth to my eyes of what is read, just a scripture here and there that I seem to look at with new understanding and it brings a deeper conviction for the truth of Gods word. This morning we were covering the 28th chapter of 1st Samuel and as if on cue my Adventist friends on the left side of the isle put Saul’s experience with the medium to call on Samuel down to the fact that this was an evil spirit that answered from the grave. I can just about set my watch by these folk, I knew what was going to be said before they knew what they were going to say. But as I read this chapter from about verse 15 to about verse 20 I saw something different, for one thing the scripture declares in verse 15 “Now SAMUEL said to Saul, why have you disturbed me by bringing me up. Now this was nothing new, but we have to read the scripture and not try to change what it says. What I did see that was new to my understanding is that if you take a look at verse 19 Samuel begins to prophecy to Saul, Samuel I 28:19 "Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines." I cannot remember a place in the Bible where there is any indication that evil spirits have the power to prophecy in detail what will happen in the future, while there is a scripture that says Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? So these spirits do know that they will come to judgment in time, but I can see no indication where they have ever been able to prophecy in detail, the future. Can anyone help me out here? I am asking to jog your memory of scripture where there is an example an evil Spirit prophesying in detail a future event. As I read thru the passages from verse 15 to verse 19 I just have to take the Bible as it reads and conclude it was Samuel. Folks I am not under obligation to explain God, but I am under obligation to believe God. Like Pastor Gary I am getting settled in here for the Gospel, and the more I get settled in the more I am determined to look at my Bible and just believe what it says and not extract from it nor try to explain it away. So how about it you guys, in view of the prophecy in detail Samuel made to Saul, can you furnish any indication of an evil spirit being able to do this? River | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 426 Registered: 5-2007 |
It wasn't and evil spirit it WAS Samuel. I don't see any indication that an evil spirit could make a prophecy that is true and in detail. Saul died exactly the way Samuel's spirit prophesised. It's just another twisting of scripture by SDAs to fit there aberrant doctrines. | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 105 Registered: 4-2007 |
It seems very clear to me that the writer of I Samuel 28 understood that Saul was having a conversation with Samuel. If he was actually having a conversation with an evil spirit, you'd think the author would point that out. I have actually had a long and twisted thread with a current SDA on CAF regarding this, the SDA poster has gone so far as to REWRITE the bible passage trying to emphasize that Saul didn't really talk to Samuel, he just PERCEIVED that he did. I think my next post to the thread will be the passage from the Clear Word bible which of course, supports the SDA version, next to several bible translations which emphaize that Saul KNEW Samuel, and relates their conversation. In doing so, I hope to highlight how Adventists twist scripture to support EGW. MarysRoses | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 428 Registered: 5-2007 |
Excellent, Marysroses. I am just so glad my son will be going to Catholic school instead of Adventist school where he will actually learn Bible in Religion class. Oh my wife and I told some Adventists that our son is going to be going to Catholic school and one of them who is a Pastor said, be careful about the "freedom" he will have at Catholic school and make sure you make him attend EVERY SDA religious service with you to inoculate him. This dude doesn't know: 1) I go to SDB Church most of the time now and consider myself a Seventh Day Baptist rather than an SDA 2) My son is no longer an Adventist, either and is actually considering becoming a Catholic.(that's actually ok with me I just want him to be a Christian I don't care what denomination). 3) My wife actually seemed not to like this guy saying this. I just rolled my eyes and thought to myself, yeah right. IF only he knew that the boy and I aren't Adventists anymore anyway. | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 106 Registered: 4-2007 |
to answer the original question, sorry River.. I am unaware of any instance where an evil spirit gives a true prophecy regarding the actions of the Lord. "The Lord will....." It wouldn't seem that an evil spirit has that power. It also wouldn't seem reasonable that, as I said, the biblical author would refer to an evil spirit as "Samuel said..." The SDA poster has come up with nothing to support his position except the idea that Saul did not really see or talk to Samuel, but only to the witch and an evil spirit. MarysRoses | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1133 Registered: 9-2006 |
While I myself believe in contexting the Bible in its entirety, the challenge here is to use proof texting methods to prove in any way that evil spirits are able to prophecy in detail, the future under any circumstance. The object is not to afirm Adventist twisting of scripture. Just one instance where they (evil spirits) are able to do this. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6376 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, that is an interesting question. I remember the demon-possessed slave girl who ran after Paul saying he was preaching the Son of God--and Paul silenced her. She was speaking truth but with the wrong spirit, thus giving a tainted message. I can also think of times evil men made God-given prophecies, such as Balaam who tried to curse Israel but God's blessing came out instead, etc. But I cannot think of a time when an evil spirit actually spoke God's message. River, that is such an interesting observation. I agree with you; we cannot read anything into the words of Scripture. The fact that the spirit spoke truth does confirm the idea that it was Samuel's spirit sent by God to tell Saul the sad truth, putting his unbelief into proper persepctive. Sometimes we forget that evil is not a parallel universe to God's truth. God is sovereign over all creation; evil is contained within creation, and God is sovereign even over evil. Evil is God's "monkey". It cannot do what God does not allow, and it cannot trump God's will. So interesting, River. I grew up believing that spirit was an evil spirit, too—as a result of previous discussions on this forum, I've re-thought that idea, but your thoughts above have helped me sort this out more completely. Thank you. Colleen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 437 Registered: 5-2007 |
If Adventists were to believe the Bible AS IT READS that the spirit was indeed that of Samuel and not an "evil" spirit, that alone would blow "soul sleep" right out of the water. It's a chain of error: William Miller set a date and Christ didn't come, Duh! the Bible said don't do that. Miller repented but others wouldn't or couldn't, the cornfield "vision" Investigative Judgement, Ellen White has a "vision" and accept it. Problem is now no one can be in heaven until their case is decided: Hence "soul sleep". Let's make them "afeared of spooks" so they will believe a lie. Tell them more lies: You wouldn't be happy in heaven seeing your loved ones go through trials on earth.(excuse me but how could anyone NOT be happy in heaven). Oh and when the final test over the Sabbath comes evil spirits will pose as departed loved ones and try to tell you they "keep Sunday in Heaven" "Adventism is false" The lies just snowball one on top of the other, don't they?? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1977 Registered: 10-2004  |
Balaam was a false prophet who was forced to speak for God. But if the spirit in 1 Samuel 28 was a demon, then that demon would have a 100% accuracy in prophesying and would therefore be a true prophet of God! I see major problems with that. Colleen, I heard Pastor Mark Martin say something recently that was interesting, with regard to that demon-possessed slave girl. The NASB has her saying: "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation." (Acts 16:17b NASB.) But he said that in the Greek, there is no definite article for "the way." He said that she was actually saying "a way of salvation." Jeremy | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 640 Registered: 4-2006  |
Reb, check out: http://www.whateverycatholicshouldknow.com/ http://www.pro-gospel.org/ http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=transcripts&aid=231488 http://www.cwrc-rz.org/ Is Seventh Day Adventism, just another Christian denomination? Is Roman Catholicism just another Christian denomination? Well I think not. In His grace, Martin | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 43 Registered: 6-2007 |
Martin - I think not too! Laurie | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 100 Registered: 4-2007 |
Given that the ability to prophesize and the knowledge of future events comes only from God, only those God has chosen could do so. Would God then bestow the gift of prophecy on a demon? It's hard to emagine a demon receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1138 Registered: 9-2006 |
Ain't happinin is it Jonvil, so there ya go folks, it was Samuel, not only that it might also indicate that the spirits of the dead are resting in Jesus bosom. verse 15 “Now SAMUEL said to Saul, why have you disturbed me by bringing me up. This was all permitted by God to happen, It is not my Job to figure why God does the things he does, but is is my job to believe him and pay attention to his word, if he says it's Samuel, then it's Samuel. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1978 Registered: 10-2004 |
Verses 12, 14, 16, and 20 also say that it was Samuel. Five different verses tell us that it was Samuel. I think we're supposed to believe that it was Samuel.  Jeremy | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 235 Registered: 1-2006  |
Martin What really stuns me is when I encounter people who truly believe the "gospel plus" stuff, regardless of Galatians chapter 1. I just don't think people can see it unless God lifts the veil, and I guess that doesn't happen until they give up this stuff and come to Christ. I think that's why so many SDAs suffer so much when facing death. I think many never really deal honestly with their own hearts. The value genesis data from La Sierra confirms this for SDA kids (that most don't believe the gospel) and our SDA chaplains and hospice nurses have noticed it for SDAs facing death. It's heartbreaking. I talk to my kids constantly about this stuff, because they grew up attending SDA church services and attending SDA schools. I want to make absolutely sure they see Adventism for what it is, and don't just assume that everything is OK when it isn't. Thanks for the great links. Bob | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1141 Registered: 9-2006 |
You know, what I have gotten out of this is this, if the bible says something that is readily apparent to any reasonable mind to digest, such as the book of Galatians for instance and the book of acts, the books of Corinthians on the gift of tongues and interpretations, if it says it then that’s what it is, what good can the word do for us if we go warping the scripture to fit our own understanding of who God is and what he does. All scripture is for doctrine, for reproof and for correction, we have to consume a truth as the truth stands, truth is firmly based in reality regardless, it will stand on its own; we don’t have to “fix it up.” Until I met the Adventist I had no real problem with Samuel being Samuel. Along comes the Adventist and declare it to have been an evil spirit. They “fixed it up”, what right have we to “repair” God’s word, its kinda like a great cook puts food completely prepared on the table according to the recipe and we look at it and send it back saying its not fit to eat. By the time we get through “repairing” God’s word we have gone and ruined it. Every scripture is important, line on line, precept on precept, the meal has been prepared and served, but it’s up to us to eat it. The plumb line has been laid four square, the building is finished, a great building, built by the hand of God and it needs no “fixing up” it needs no “repair”. When we have inquired of the Lord with all our strength, all our heart and mind, then his word of truth will come alive in our hearts. River | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1179 Registered: 4-2000  |
Richard Bennett, a former Roman Catholic priest, has an outstanding ministry (www.bereanbeacon.org). I have been in contact with him through the years. We have each shared our heartfelt burden for our respective former churches. This website has a wealth of information on Roman Catholicism, Church history, etc. It is a MUST-VISIT type of website. His video presentations are most informative and factual. Check it out! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 236 Registered: 1-2006 |
Dennis Thank you for the great link. I just read the "Inquisition" part. I'm just finishing a book by R.C. Sproul entitled "What is Reformed Theology" and I have apprecited his clear and easy to understand explanations of the Catholic vs reformed views of justification, etc. I bought the book at Berean, along with "The Attributes of God" by Arthur Pink and "Knowing God" by J.I. Packer. Good reading so far. Thanks again for the good link. Bob | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 121 Registered: 8-2005 |
River:You know, what I have gotten out of this is this, if the bible says something that is readily apparent to any reasonable mind to digest, such as the book of Galatians for instance and the book of acts, the books of Corinthians on the gift of tongues and interpretations, if it says it then that’s what it is, what good can the word do for us if we go warping the scripture to fit our own understanding of who God is and what he does. "If the first sense makes sense seek no other sense lest you get nonsense!" - J. Vernon McGee |
