| Author | Message | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2007 |
Hello everyone, I am new here. I will post another time with my story when I get some free time. I would like to mention I am so glad that I found this forum, it has been a tremendous help to me. I have a question with two verses used by SDAs and I have used it myself. The verses are used to prove that it was the Mosaic Law (seperate for the 10 Cs) that was abolished at the cross, and not the 10 Cs. Can someone please help me shed some light on these verses? Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. As you can see it states that the commands,judgements/ordinances and Statutes written by Moses (commanded by God of course) that were against us and placed on the side of the Ark, In Col 2:14 it states ordinances against us. Any help on these would be greatly appreciated. thanks and God Bless. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 702 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hi Pnoga! Welcome. I know what you mean about finding this forum. I found it over a year ago and it has been quite a comfort for me as well as a great help. I'm a "never-been" so I can't help with the SDA verses you're looking for (I'm figuring they come from EGW's writings). However I'm sure someone here will be able to help you with that. Again - welcome! Looking forward to hearing your story.  Leigh Anne | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2007 |
Actually those verses are straight out of the Bible (KJV). Adventists use them to prove that it was not the 10 Commandments nailed to the cross but the Ceremonial/Sacrificial (termed Mosaic Laws by SDA). | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1162 Registered: 9-2006  |
Hi Pnoga, Firstly, welcome to the forum, I look forward to reading your story, it never ceases to amaze me the work of the Holy Spirit in peoples lives. As to your question if I understand it correctly, the basic problem with Adventist doctrine is proof texting of scripture in order to prove their doctrine instead of obtaining doctrine. The basic problem is, I believe, separation of the 10c from the covenant, we find in Deuteronomy 4:13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. Deuteronomy 4:14 "And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess. The Ten “words” were the covenant he made with Israel, the rest of the 613 some odd were statutes and judgments, it seems to me one would have a hard time separating statutes and judgments from any law. So they resort to proof texting in order to uphold an untenable doctrine. Using proof texting methods only allows them to see part of the picture. The problem with Adventism is that it starts wrong in the first place. In Deuteronomy 31:26 "Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you; In (Col 2:14 KJV) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; They are attempting to separate the 10c here from the statutes and judgments in an attempt to uphold Sabbath worship seems to me, so they only give you part of the picture. But if one does that, separate the covenant from the statues it makes no sense whatsoever, at least to me. What would be the sense of having a statute or judgment without a covenant? As it plainly states in Deut. 4:13 that the 10c is the covenant and 4:14 the statutes and judgments. I am a ”never been” too but I thought I would rise to the challenge here for practice, hope you don’t mind my stepping in where I may not belong. I just find it amazing the proof texting methods the Adventist have to try to prove Sabbath worship and also a little comical that they use Col 2:14 for right under that is plainly says not to let anyone judge you in food or drink or moon or Sabbaths. Amazing. Now I might have gotten this all wrong so you guys chip in and feel free to nail me to the wall on this. Anyways I want to extend a welcome. In his love. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1163 Registered: 9-2006 |
This all reminds me of a card trickster, or the old shell game, now you see it and now you don't. Ha! River | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2007 |
Thank you for the Welcomes! Yes I agree that it is comical since it does state not to judge in regard to food, drink, or in respect of a Holyday, new moon, and Sabbath day (Sabbath days in KJV). They claim that the Sabbath Day mentioned here is the monthly yearly Sabbaths. But as we know from a careful study of the Bible it is always presented in Yearly, Monthly, Weekly or Weekly, Monthly, Yearly. It just frustrates me that they choose not to see that. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 703 Registered: 6-2006 |
Also, SDA's fail to remember that the 10Cs including the law of Moses were between God and ISREAL. ONLY. Just as you can't separate the words of the law (10 Cs) from the whole law of Moses, there are no scripture verses (at least that I know of) that place or include Gentiles under that law. Leigh Anne | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 79 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hi Pnoga, welcome to the forum. I'm a "former" and I'm fairly new. I'm noticing in my Bible where God spoke the Ten Commandments out loud from the mountain until the poeple implored Moses to please go himself and talk with God. They were too terrified. So at the end of the chapter in Exodus 20, he goes up on the mountain. Now I'm scanning through here, so I hope I'm not missing anything, but it looks like God is giving Moses a bunch more rules from the last part of Exodus 20 through Exodus 31 when God handed Moses the tablets of stone. I'm assuming these are those rules that are the ones that were placed "on the side of the ark"? Notice Exodus 23:12. God is commanding the Sabbath again, then in the texts immediately following, God commands the various feasts. So I'm assuming that Sabbath would be one of those laws also put with the other "ceremonial" laws in the side of the ark. Also notice that just before God gives Moses the two tablets of stone, He mentions the Sabbath again, telling Moses that it's to be a sign between God and Israel. (Exodus 31:13) In my little New King James version, it says "handwriting of requirements." (Col. 2:14) There's a little number 1 beside the word "handwriting." The center column says "certificate of debt with its", so then one could say "certificate of debt with its requirements." My NIV version has different words yet. It says: "having cancelled the written code, with it's regulations, that was against us..." Col. 2:14 Also in my NIV, Ephesians 2:15 says: "by abolishing in His flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace." I hope this helps. Dianne | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 111 Registered: 4-2007 |
Hi Pnoga! Welcome to the forum. My answer for those proof texts is this... The Jews, both historically, and down to today do not distinguish between the ten commandments and the rest of the law. They consider them to be the 'ideological' basis of the recognized 613 commandments, all of which can be found in our Old Testament, but not separate from them. Jews teach that Gentiles were never responsible for keeping the Law (the 613 which include the 10, but only the 7 commandments they call the "Noahide" commandments (commands found in the OT before the time of Moses, such as not killing). If the placement of the stone tablets and the writings of Moses in the ark had been intended to create a distinction between two different classes of commandment or covenant, it would make sense that the Jewish people would have recognized that. The fact that they make no distinction is reflected in the writings of St. Paul, in his assertions that to break any of the law is to be guilty of all. As Christians, we are freed from the law, all of it. Otherwise, we would be responsible for keeping all of it, all 613, not just the ten. That would mean putting fringes on your underwear and separating meat and dairy foods, resting your land every 7th year, forgiving all debts in the year of jubilee (oh wait! you have to keep that year of jubilee, and the new moons, and all the levitical feasts.....) The list gets longer and longer. So that is why we are not to judge each other over the matter of food or drink or what day we worship. Those laws are not ours and never were. This doesn't mean there are not still moral teachings, but the Ten commandments are *more* than morality. The sabbath, as any good rabbi will tell you, is *not* a universal moral law - it is a ceremonial law, a sign of the covenant God made with the Jews. As another thread has some references posted, Gentiles were not permitted to keep the sabbath, as they were not admitted to that covenant. Which brings me to point #2 about the law.... (I have no idea really how evangelicals view this topic, so fair warning to readers that these opinions may not reflect the general view of the forum members....) Jesus did not destroy or abrogate the Law, he fulfilled it perfectly. It no longer judges us, we are not obligated to the ritual demands of the 613 (or the 10). Whats left for us? God's law is written on our hearts, the Holy Spirit teaches us righteousness. Does that mean though, that there is no longer any use for God's law as given on Sinai, or is it that our relationship to it has been profoundly changed. Remember, we gentiles were not permitted to keep it, it wasn't our covenant. Looking at the Ten Commandments in the context of the Old Covenant and the Old Testament, it is clear, they are not ours. We gentiles are outsiders, not part of the family. Rules are for family. It reminds me of keeping foster kids. New foster parents sometimes make the mistake of being very lenient with their new charges, hoping to make them feel at home. Experienced foster parents know however, that setting down reasonable house rules up front gives kids a sense of belonging. Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly. He established a New Covenant, we are now the adopted sons and daughters of God. Jesus is our brother. What then are our family rules? It is not that old law of written requirements and ritual observances, obviously. God's law is written on our hearts.. but what law? This is the place, imho, for the 10 commandments for Christians. Not on stone, not as a legalistic requirement, but they are in our hearts, still in force as the perfect expression of God's Love. When I teach children the 10 commandments, I emphasize this, that God wrote them on stone for Moses, but that now He writes them in our hearts. We talk about keeping rules by 'letter' (can be frustrating and sometimes circumstances warrant 'bending' them a little) or by 'spirit' (using our consciences and prayer to make the best decision). As an aside, being a former SDA, I always inoculate the kiddies against the sabbath 'hook' Adventists like to use, the "well, its in the 10 commandments..." I use that commandment as an example of letter vs. spirit and how Jesus fulfilled the law... Jesus didn't destroy the law, but in fulfilling it perfectly, He established a new covenant with us, and in experiencing that New Covenant relationship, we experience the fullest expression of that law, as Love, as God is Love. This to me, fits in perfectly with the teaching that Jesus is our sabbath rest. Perfect, eternal, and the spiritual truth the ritual requirement foreshadowed but never was able to give by itself, not having the life that Christ gives. God Bless, MarysRoses | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6405 Registered: 12-2003  |
Great answers, and welcome Pnoga! We're so glad you're here! Another thing you need to know, which we weren't taught as Adventists, is that in Leviticus 23 there is a list of all the cermonial feasts and holy days that the Israelites were to observe. This list contains all the days the Adventists say were fulfilled by Jesus. Included in that list is the weekly Sabbath. It is listed right along with Passover, Feast of booths, new moons, etc. River and Mary explained the situation really well, and Mary gave a good explanation of the New Covenant and how it works. As River pointed out, Deuteronomy states plainly that the Ten Commandments were the words of the covenant with Israel. Nowhere in the Bible is there ever a division between the Ten Commandments and the expanded ceremonial instructions that were put into the side of the ark. Pnoga, it's important to realize that you have to understand the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant. The entire Mosaic covenant was fulfilled in Jesus, and now we live by the law of Christ instead of by the law of Moses. I know that Adventists dismiss the distinction between these, but the distinction is taught in the Bible. Read Romans 4 and 5, and you'll see that faith is what qualifies ALL of God's people to be His--never the law. Romans 5:12-14 also explains that death (the result of sin) reigned in the world from the time of Adam until Moses, "Even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come." Notice that those who lived before Sinai were not considered to be under the law, and in verse 13, Paul even says that where there is no law, sin "is not taken into account". In other words, sin was reigning, but God was not holding those pre-Sinai people responsible for breaking His "law" before the law was given. They were guilty of SIN, but not of "sins" as identified by a law. Hebrews and 2 Corinthians 3 explain in detail that the law is obsolete now that Christ has come. Hebrews 7:12 even says, regarding Jesus as a priest in the order of Melchizedek instead of Aaron, "For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law." The priesthood of Aaron is over--along with the law that depended upon that priesthood. Now we have Jesus as the eternal priest, and we live by the law of Christ—the Holy Spirit in us who convicts us and reveals God's truth. I'm going to give you a couple of links to read. The first is a very good, easy-to-understand study on the Covenants by Chris Lee. The second is a little more in depth, but it looks very accurately and clearly at the SDA assumptions about law. It's called "The Unity of the Law: What was Nailed to the Cross?" by McGregor Wright. Here are the links: http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/studies/covenants/covenants1.html At this link, scroll down to page 6: http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2005_JulAug.pdf Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 82 Registered: 7-2007 |
Also, the apostle Paul says that the law was 430 years after Abraham, in Galatians 3:16,17. Dianne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1985 Registered: 10-2004  |
Pnoga, welcome to the forum! The "book of the law" mentioned in Deuteronomy 31:26 contained the entire Law--all 613 commandments. That means that the "book of the law" contained the Ten Commandments! In fact, it is only because of that "book of the law" that we even have a record of the Ten Commandments (literally, "Ten Words"), since we do not have the stone tablets. The "book of the law" refers to what Moses wrote down, inspired by the Holy Spirit (which is now part of our Old Testament). It is God's Own Words just as surely as the Ten Commandments were. If someone were to claim that the "book of the law" did not contain the Ten Commandments, then they would have to say that the Old Testament does not contain the Ten Commandments. It is absurdity. All we have to do is look at Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 to see that the "book of the law" certainly does include the Ten Commandments! So, if it is the "book of the law" that was abolished at the Cross, then the Ten Commandments were abolished at the Cross, as they are part of the "book of the law," the Torah. Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4057 Registered: 3-2004  |
Pnoga, Welcome to FAF. Everyone else explained better than I, what you asked. When you are ready, tell us of your journey with Jesus. You will find that God is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Toria Registered user Username: Toria Post Number: 171 Registered: 2-2006  |
Pnoga, Welcome to the forum. You will find help and fellowship here. Blessings Toria | ||
| Berit Registered user Username: Berit Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2007 |
I'd like to welcome you as well. This is a greate place to learn and share. |
