| Author | Message | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2006 |
My husband and I were discussing soul sleep,he still supports this belief,I'm having a hard time convincing him it's not biblical.He holds tightly on to SDA beliefs,exept EGW.SDA docterine and beliefs,and lifestyle is all he knows,regarding his life now and his former childhood.He holds on to what he percieves is the only truth life has to offer.Anyway, I was actually listening to Colleen's interview on Ex-Adventist Outreach,it was a tape of the SDA 2005 General conference.My question is, my husband does not believe Christ went to Heaven when died. He does know about,Jesus telling the thief,'Today you will be with me in paradise'. But, he still questions this Christian belief,on account of Jesus telling his disciples not to touch him, because he has not ascended to his Father yet. Does anybody know how to answer this for me? I could really use some help on this subject! | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 711 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hi Cortney! Jesus went to a place called paradise, where spirits went when they died before Jesus ascended. There are other names which are part of it called "Hades" and "Sheol" and the "Busom of Abraham". (You can look up any of those words on Biblegateway and find the texts) Here is an EXCELLENT study on the state of the dead. http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/5428.html?1176775137 I learned so much from that study, and I was not even raised with the soul sleep doctrine. Blessings! Leigh Anne | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 712 Registered: 6-2006 |
By the way, here's a verse about Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison (Sheol)... 1 Peter 3:18-21 (New International Version) 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[a] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1995 Registered: 10-2004  |
Cortney, here is a link to a previous post of mine, discussing that same argument: http://64.226.233.122/cgi-bin/discus/board-auth.cgi?file=/4529/5656.html#POST75423 Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6432 Registered: 12-2003  |
Cortney, in addition to the links above, another thing to remember is that when Jesus said he had not yet ascended to His Father, He was not talking about His spirit. Acts 1 is clear that He ascended in a glorified body, after His resurrection, and at that time he sat down at His Father's right hand. (see also Ephesians 2) Jesus' physical ascension is the promise that we also will ascend with glorified bodies, as described in 1 Thessalonians 4. He was not saying His spirit hadn't been with the Father; He was saying HE--all of Him--hadn't ascended. That text about not having ascended could as well be interpreted to say, "You don't need to hang onto me; go tell my disciples I'm alive! I haven't ascended yet--you'll see me again! Now Go!" Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1184 Registered: 9-2006  |
John 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' " Colleen, That the most clear explanation of that scripture I have ever heard. And that is the one that makes sense of it, if there was some way that they could contaminate him or something to that nature, it would have been too late for they had already grabbed a hold of him is readily apparent and he later told Thomas to feel him anyway. Your explanation has the feel of truth and logic to it. Thank you for that, that will keep me from looking puzzled at that scripture from now on. Another tension file moved to the solved files! River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1998 Registered: 10-2004 |
And if dead people and lepers could not defile or contaminate Him, how could Mary contaminate Him? Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6434 Registered: 12-2003 |
I can't take credit for that understanding, River, but thank you. I got that insight from the notes in the NIV Study Bible by Zondervan. Good point, Jeremy! Colleen | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 135 Registered: 8-2005 |
I like this... "That text about not having ascended could as well be interpreted to say, "You don't need to hang onto me; go tell my disciples I'm alive! I haven't ascended yet--you'll see me again! Now Go!" I have not heard this text explained this way before. It seems to make sense within the context - much more that the understanding that I was traditionally raised with. ISO | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 598 Registered: 3-2001 |
Cortney, Until your huusband can accept the fact that we have a body soul and spirit (or a body and asoul/spirit as some people believe here), he will have difficulty reconciling the state of the dead. That truth has been one of the single most important discoveries in my journey out of Adventism. The thing I never noticed in Adventism was how many times references were made to Jesus taking our sins in his body. As others have pointed out here, Jesus' spirit did not and could not die, otherwise he would have ceased to be God. I'd suggest focusing your husband's attention on the nature of man. Doug | ||
| Freeindeed Registered user Username: Freeindeed Post Number: 43 Registered: 3-2006 |
This is one of those beliefs that I haven't gotten to the bottom of yet. I don't believe in Soul Sleep (and neither do SDA's, they actually believe in Soul Death), but I'm not clear what happens when we die. We are body, mind, and soul/spirit (image of God), and our body and mind certainly go into the ground. I don't believe our spirit/soul dies, but I do believe it is not necessarily conscious (our mind dies, no brain), and it can't walk around with the Lord (our body dies, no feet). So what is our spirit? How can it be described? | ||
| Luzisbornagain Registered user Username: Luzisbornagain Post Number: 72 Registered: 7-2007 |
If the soul dies or ceases to exist, how do you explain the resurrection of Jesus? It just doesn't make sense when you apply that doctrine to the deity of Christ and His death and resurrection. | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 136 Registered: 8-2005 |
Freeindeed, I have not gotten to the bottom of this one either. In some ways, I much preferred it when I had all the answers as an SDA. Of course, I shudder now when I hear an Adventist say "If I read a text I don't understand, I go to the Spirit of Prophecy and if Sister White says that the text means a particular thing then that settles it for me. I move on to something else." I guess not having all the answere is actually a good thing after all... ISO | ||
| Freeindeed Registered user Username: Freeindeed Post Number: 46 Registered: 3-2006 |
Luzisbornagain, show me where the Bible teaches that the soul/spirit dies in humanity. Have you ever read Wayne Grudem's 'Systematic Theology'? It's a cumbersome book is some regards (1300 pages or so). But it's excellent for seeing what the WHOLE Bible teaches on a topic. (Message edited by Freeindeed on July 31, 2007) | ||
| Burntoutdentist Registered user Username: Burntoutdentist Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2007 |
The New Testament uses the word "sleep" for our death till Jesus comes many times. Jesus uses it and plainly had to explain to his disciples that he meant "death" after using the word "sleep".(John 11:11-14 raising of Lazarus). I believe just that, we "sleep" till He comes. He somehow holds us in this state until we are raised, how I don't know, but it dosen't matter to me. I'll trust him for that. If we still have consciousness, some explaining will have to be done about how we interact without a body. God himself has form, and we are made in his Image. So we must have form, which is some sort of body, so that brings us full circle to a resurrection again. Anyway, what's the problem with just sleeping, sounds OK to me. We just wake up like after a good nights sleep with the best body ever!!! Peter | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2001 Registered: 10-2004 |
"God himself has form, and we are made in his Image. So we must have form, which is some sort of body, so that brings us full circle to a resurrection again." Peter, actually that is a heretical teaching from Adventism and EGW, that God has a form/body. In John 4:24, Jesus plainly tells us that "God is Spirit." And in Luke 24:39, Jesus clearly says that "a spirit does not have flesh and bones." When the Bible says that God created us in His image, it uses the word for creating out of nothing. It is talking about our spirit being created in His image, since He is a Spirit. When it talks about God forming man's body, it is not talking about creating out of nothing but rather forming out of the dust. The teaching that God is corporeal (has a body by nature), rather than incorporeal, is a heresy that has never been believed by historic, orthodox Christianity. The Bible is also clear that we as humans have spirits which are very real and can know God. John 3:6 tells us that it is our spirit that is born again. And in Romans 8:16, it says: "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God." If we cease to exist when we die, then that means that a resurrection would actually be impossible--it would be a "re-creation." God would have to re-create someone that looks like me. But what hope would I have of ever living again? None, if I cease to exist when I die. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 31, 2007) | ||
| Burntoutdentist Registered user Username: Burntoutdentist Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2007 |
I see your point, but as we are now. we will never understand the spirit world. When I said form, I meant just that, a form, it is obviously not flesh and blood like ours. That's what made Jesus so special since he became flesh and blood like us. I also never said we cease to exist, we sleep as Jesus says, without consciousness, till we are woken. Peter | ||
| Freeindeed Registered user Username: Freeindeed Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2006 |
Consciousness would indicated the mind/brain (body, MIND, soul/spirit), but it's not the same thing as spirit. It's a 3 in 1 deal, created in the image of God (3 in 1). Consciousness is not the spirit. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2003 Registered: 10-2004 |
By "ceasing to exist" I was including any teaching that says that we do not have a spirit that survives death, or that our conscious existence ceases. Also, when we sleep, our consciousness does not cease. It is merely a reduced state of consciousness. If our consciousness were to cease completely, how could we regain it and be the same person we were? How would it be us and not a recreation? (By the way, God does not have a "form" like us [even a "spirit form"], since He is an infinite Spirit, and is outside of time and space.) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 31, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6442 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy's point about God not having form is important. I hadn't realized until the past few months how much the sublimial belief I had that somehow God had form affected my understanding of the whole Trinity. Adventist understanding depends upon God having form. The spirit is not explained, but when we are alive in Christ, it can be perceived. Our perception of the Holy Spirit causing us to react to Him, giving us insight and understanding and wisdom--these things happen in our spirits. if we do not have spirits--real entities apart from our bodies--then sin is merely physical, and Jesus was sinless because he didn't break the law. Jesus, however, was sinless because He was born with a living spirit--conceived by the Holy Spirit. He did not have to be born again. Sinlessness is about being one with God, not about behavior. Behvavior is affected by sin and by the new birth--but behavior does not define sin. Sin is a spiritual condition, not primarily physical. It is my belief that the Adventist soul-sleep doctrine is the underlying heresy (related, of course, to the Arian root of the church) that twists everything. If we don't have spirits, then sin is physical, the nature of Christ is twisted, the nature of man is not understood, and even slavation is about being good rather than being saved by Jesus blood. Colleen |
