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Message |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 115
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 9:55 am: |     |
When I was an Adventist, I had no idea that Ellen White contradicted the Bible. I thought the Bible and her writings fit "hand in glove." When the fact that she actually contradicted the Bible came home to my mind, I quit believing in her writings. Now, looking back, I can easily see how the SDA church bases everything entirely on Ellen White and how they've twisted the Bible to fit her writings.
Gilbert, my mother quoted that from Ellen White to me too! She's one of the relatives that I've been writing to.
Maybe I should ask her to compare these two statements.
Ellen White in the book "Early Writings" in the chapter, "Mark of the Beast" wrote: "Said the angel, 'Get ready, get ready, get ready. Ye will have to die a greater death to the world than ye have ever yet died.'"
(Hmmm... I wonder why her angel spoke in King James English? Didn't Joseph Smith's angel give Joseph Smith instruction in the same type English? I asked my one Mormon sister about it and she said that the King James English is a more "holy" English.)
Now for the other quote, this time from the Bible! Ephesians 2:8,9 says: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works lest anyone should boast." |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 528
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 11:57 am: | |
Asurprise,
Tell your Mother that there are a lot of fascinating things in the Apocrypha. When she starts assuring you that you have gone off the "deep end" then tell her that the original King James Bible of 1611 included the Apocrypha (http://etext.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html). When she tells you that they are not inspired then you can share with her the following quote\quote from the "Pen of Inspiration".{I saw that the Apocrypha was the hidden book, and that the wise of these last days should understand it. (Manuscript Releases, vol. 16, p. 34)} Note that this was not Ellen's opinion, inspite of what the White Estate says at http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/issues/faq-unus.html#unusual-section-h1. Ellen clearly stated that this is what God showed her, and of course we know that not one word of what she wrote was her own.
That should keep your Mom busy for a little while. See also http://www.ellenwhite.org/refute7.htm
James White was also fond of 2 Esdas, quoting it 6 times in A Word To The Little Flock. See http://www.earlysda.com/flock/lflock-trustees.html
The full paper is at http://www.earlysda.com/flock/lflockcontents.html
By the way, this paper makes for some fascinating reading. Search http://www.earlysda.com/flock/lflock-egwhite.html for "pomegranates" and you will find the following quote
quote:I saw there a glorious ark, overlaid with pure gold, and it had a glorious border, resembling Jesus' crowns; and on it were two bright angels - their wings were spread over the ark as they sat on each end, with their faces turned towards each other and looking downward.cc In the ark, beneath where the angels' wings were spread, was a golden pot of Manna, of a yellowish cast; and I saw a rod, which Jesus said was Aaron's; I saw it bud, blossom and bear fruit. And I saw two long golden rods, on which hung silver wires, and on the wires most glorious grapes; one cluster was more than a man here could carry. And I saw Jesus step up and take of the manna, almonds, grapes and pomegranates, and bear them down to the city, and place them on the supper table. A Word to the Little Fock, To The Remnant Scattered Abroad.
It is fascinating to notice what the Lord showed her was in the Ark! Notice that while in heaven it has no Ten Commandments, but it does have almonds and pomegranates -- two items Moses missed in his description.
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6483
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 12:03 pm: | |
Wow, I just listened to the first of those interviews with Mark Martin, Greg Taylor, and Jonathan Bilima. They are so powerful—thank you, Martin, for the links.
They openly discuss how Ellen White was the source of cognitive dissonance in their experiences. Greg points out that apparently up to 80-90% of some of Ellen's books are plagiarized. All three discuss how Ellen herself caused them confusion, sometimes saying "grace"-sounding statements, other times contradicting herself.
Mark points out that this year is, for Adventists, the Year of Ellen White, and members are being encouraged to read The Desire of Ages—not, he points out, Romans or Galatians, but The Desire of Ages.
The whole interview is a discussion of how one loses one's joy—which Mark points out is a fruit of the Spirit—when one turns back to Adventism after having met the Lord. They talk about the fact that in spite of their clever words to the contrary, Adventism DOES place Ellen's interpretation as the last word regarding Biblical interpretation. Even though they say she is of less importance, in practice they place her in authority over it.
Gilbert, your comments are absolutely true.
I have so much respect for Mark's ministry to Adventists. He is bold and clear about the truth of Adventism.
River, your point is 100% true. Our debating does not resolve any of the problems because we are dealing with a real spirit of deception. Logic will not bring Adventists to the truth. This is a spiritual battle, and we have to begin seeing our encounters with Adventists not as personal debates or rejections but as scenes from a real spiritual battle. We have to approach our encounters with Ephesians 6:10-18 directing us. We have to wear the protective armor, and we have to depend on God to deal the decisive blows.
We respond by staying covered by the armor: the belt of truth, the breastplate of righteousness, the shoes of the gospel of peace, the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God. And we must keep praying on all occasions. This is a battle only the Lord Jesus can win. We speak for Him—and we don't back down nor do we step forward and fight the battle ourselves.
We honor the Lord Jesus and obey Him. He will deal with the enemy—a defeated foe already!
Colleen |
Pnoga
Registered user
Username: Pnoga
Post Number: 7
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 12:50 pm: | |
Ah some good audio for my IPOD. |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 116
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 2:03 pm: | |
Colleen and River; I agree, this is a spiritual battle and words alone cannot convict an Adventist of the truth. The Holy Spirit has to do that and He gives us the right words to say. I know, He gave my friend the right thing to say to bring me out of Adventism.
Gilbert, I don't think my mother would know what the Apocrypha is. (I don't either  But there are plenty of other silly things that Ellen White said. It's so frustrating how strong a hold that Adventist teaching has on those relatives of mine. I just have to remember that where they are, I was too; just a little over a year ago. I keep asking the Lord to lead in my witnessing to them. I don't want to run ahead of Him!
Dianne |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1243
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 4:25 pm: | |
Lucybugg,
What was probably wrong with you is that at some time Christ had entered your heart, and thats why it did,nt fit, I will stretch Phils theory a little farther and declare that I don't believe many in Adventism have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them as yet to begin with, not that the few who have yet to be led out and maybe still blinder than a bat.
Now I could be completely wrong in this and everybody has an opinion and my views may change tomorrow, like you guys I am just doing my best to understand.
Your right Phil there are plenty stubborn fools in the world who just refuse the Bible for what it is.
Asurprise " King James words more Holy!!" Haaaa, haaa.................. MY laugh for today!!
Thanks for that, I just laid carpet so I needed that.
River |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 140
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 6:03 pm: | |
River,
I like it when you stretch, so stretch away my friend.
Picking up where you left off, here is the theory restated:
When a person is saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, he places the Seal of our redemption, the Holy Spirit, into our lives. The Holy Spirit is now at work and will not abide by lies or false teaching. Doctrines of demons are exposed and reveal themselves as gibberishness. We become aware of cognitive dissonance. When we humble ourselves and follow the "voice" of the Holy Spirit in faith, he will take us out of the dissonance.
Phil |
Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans
Post Number: 412
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 6:34 pm: | |
Gilbert,
Thanks for those quotes! I sure had forgotten about the pomegranates. Somewhere packed in a box I have that "Word to the Little Flock". I saved it along with QOD, and a small choice selections of some of the more far out stuff. (Think I'll have to buy the Testimonies on Sexual Behaviour, I STILL can't believe they actually republished that!)
Oh, BTW, do you still have your site up? I have it bookmarked, but it's showing as no longer available. If you do, I would like for you to email me the addy. If you can't find it in my profile, please ask Colleen to give it to you.
Thanks,
Susan
PS (Thanks, Reb. I made it safely here!) |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 535
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 9:40 am: | |
Susan, I have been changing the focus of the material that I did have posted so that it will focus more on life after Adventism. I want it to be based less on emotion, and more on analysis and point-by-point comparisons with links to reference sites. I'll let you know when it is up as well as the new URL to relect the new focus.
About the new EGW book. There is no need to feed money to the White Estate unless you want the entire book. Portions of it can be read at http://books.google.com/books?id=LZHVpkELZEkC&printsec=frontcover
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans
Post Number: 414
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 6:32 pm: | |
Thanks, Gilbert. I'm looking forward to see your new focus. I have to admit, though...I hope you will leave the Q&A column...it always made me laugh!
Susan |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 292
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 8:06 pm: | |
I agree that we are involved in spiritual warfare. We must remember that, "...we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]." Ephesians 6:12.
Also, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ..." (2 Cor 10:3-5)
Here are some strategies we see in the Bible for engaging in warfare:
1. Prayer
2. Fasting
3. Hiding God's Word, which is the Sword of the Spirit, in our hearts
4. Claiming the enemy's territory for Christ
May I clarify #4? In Joshua 1:3, God says to Joshua, "Every place on which the sole of your foot treads, I have given it to you, just as I spoke to Moses."
Then, later in Joshua 6, we read the familiar story of Joshua and the children of Israel marching around Jericho once each day for six days and on the seventh day they marched around it seven times.
The Holy Spirit has quickened these passages to my heart and taught me that in some instances it is appropriate for me to do a similar thing. One Sabbath, many years ago, I went outside on a nice summer day and walked around the SDA church where I was a member seven times, praying for God to accomplish His will in that church and cleanse it from any spiritual evils that would try to influence the people within. I did this while everyone else was inside in Sabbath School class. I have seen some victories since then, but I feel compelled to do it again for even more souls to be loosed from the enemy's grip.
Recently, I got up very early one morning and did this same "prayer walk" around my own house. Hubby was inside sleeping. I prayed for my marriage and my home and asked God to dissolve any ememy strongholds that would try to prevent Him from accomplishing His will in our lives. I trust and believe that God is winning the war, even though I don't yet see the victory with my eyes.
Many years ago, I was attending a public meeting in a city where I lived. The meeting was being held at city hall one evening and one of the hot topics of the night was whether to allow a video store to move into the storefront across from my apartment building. I had called the prospective store owners and asked them if they planned to offer X-rated videos, and they said yes. I didn't want that kind of influence in my neighborhood, so I spoke my piece to the city council that evening and then sat down. Then, others spoke, some pro and some con. There were quite a few people there, and there was a lot of heated discussion about whether pornography leads to child molestation and whether we wanted that kind of thing in our neighborhood.
The council promised to take our comments into account as they voted on this issue the next day. After the meeting ended, everyone was milling around talking with each other. During that time, I walked around the outer perimeter of the meeting room seven times, silently praying. The next day, the council denied the license for the video store owner. I belive God's battle was won that night.
Another time, I did a prayer walk seven times around a block of buildings in which there were 3 bars. This block of buildings was right across the street from my church. (Not SDA.) A couple of weeks later, one of the bars had a fire in the kitchen and had to close down for repairs for many months. Of course the other two bars stayed open and everyone went to either one of them, probably. But I believe it was a spiritual victory anyway.
If God should lay it on your heart to do a "prayer walk," you might want to give it a try. I believe that sometimes we don't have what we desire, because we simply do not ask for it.
Honestwitness |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 4119
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 9:43 pm: | |
Honestwitness,
I like that idea of a prayer walk. I am going to do it.
Thankful that we have an aweosome God.
Diana |
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