| Author | Message | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hi Everyone! Does anyone know about a response to the book by Bob Pickle to the Spirit Behind the Church video? He's claiming that the quotes in the video don't exist and that Spurgeon and the New Geneva Bible taught the same heresy that Jesus was Michael the archangel and more. I think I remember reading somewhere that someone had refuted his claims. I've been given a copy of his new book which (very persuasively I might add) makes the video seem like hogwash. I need help refuting these things - fast! A barrage of SDA's are meeting with me Wednesday night. They want to know what I thought of the book. Thanks so much! Joyfulheart | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6477 Registered: 12-2003  |
Joyfulheart, I read some of Pickle's arguments online. His refutation is available online, and I read parts of his responses to the Michael the Archangel argument and also the incomplete atonement argument. His refutations are straw-man arguments. For example, his argument that the video lies by saying Adventism teaches an incomplete atonement is using selctive quotes from EGW to defend himself. The fact is that EGW says many things that contradict each other, and anyone can selectively quote from her to make her appear to say the atonement was complete. The truth, however, is that overall, her writings say that the IJ IS going on and that Jesus is applying His blood in the Most Holy Place to cover the sins of the saved. The Great Controversy is clear that Jesus is even now completing the atonement. For him to split hairs and derive selected statements that present her as saying the atonement was complete is to present a false picture of Ellen White. Further, his arguments that Spurgeon taught that Jesus is Michael is also a straw-man argument. First, his quotes from Spurgeon are lifted out of context, and from the quotes he uses, I can't tell for sure what Spurgeon is really saying. Second, even if Spurgeon DOES teach that Jesus is Michael, that does not make the teaching correct, nor is it an effective argument that defends Ellen. If Ellen wrote unbiblically, that is its own problem. She claimed to be a messenger of God—more than a prophet. Spurgeon did not claim to be a prophet. In other words, Joyfulheart, stick to the subject, and don't allow Pickle's arguments to take you off-track. He argues by refusing to address the central issue. He pulls spurious examples and other people into the argumenet to make his points. Those arguments do not deal with the central issue: Ellen White claimed to be delivering messages from God, and they contradict the Bible. Period. No other person..no dissection of the argument and dissection of Ellen' writings can change the basic facts: Ellen contradicted the Bible. Do not be afraid of the "false teachers" and those who defend error. God will give you His words. Colleen | ||
| Freeindeed Registered user Username: Freeindeed Post Number: 52 Registered: 3-2006 |
Nice response, Colleen. Good deceptions are very crafty and slippery, and SDAism is a good example. Freeindeed | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 525 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi Joyfulheart, This is what I have been able to find: Pickle Publishing: http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/jeremiah-films/video-1.htm http://www.pickle-publishing.com/books/response-to-video.htm http://www.amazon.com/Response-Video-Seventh-Day-Adventism-Discern/dp/0962764515 Combined response by the Ellen G. White Estate and the Biblical Research Institute, Suggested Sources to Respond to Representations Made in the Video 'Seventh-day Adventism, the Spirit Behind the Church': http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/video.html http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/spiritbehindchurch.htm "Seventh-day Adventism: The Spirit Behind the Church: A Personal Response," by Alden Thompson and Dave Thomas (March, 2001), a one-hour video produced for and shown by Blue Mountain Television. Available @ $17.00 from Blue Mt. TV, PO Box 205, College Place, WA 99324; 509-529-9149; email: manager@bluemttv.com. Misc: http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/issues/issues.html ================================== Responses to attack on Video 'Seventh-day Adventism, the Spirit Behind the Church': http://www.macgregorministries.org/seventh_day_adventists/pickle.html Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 77 Registered: 12-2003 |
My pastor gave me that book to read when we were leaving adventism 4 years ago. As I recall, it skirted the issues and talked in circles alot. I didn't think his arguments were very sound or sensible. As Colleen says above - a lot of straw-men. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2007 |
Spurgeon did not claim to be a messenger from God having visions from God, etc etc. Even if Spurgeon taught the Jesus-Angel thing only once, he was out of line, but he did not claim God told it to him. Now if egw was really getting her visions and info from God, would He not have cleared up any confusing nuances in the New Geneva Bible, if any. Pretty small god that has to go by a certain Bible version. Please go to the whiteestate search engine, plug in these exact phrases, including the quote marks, and print out the ones that suit you best: "Jesus was the angel enshrouded" found in 1SM 315 "angel who instructed John was no less a personage than Jesus" found in MS 59, 1900 also sda Bible commentary vol. 7 page 971 "very angel who was conducting the travels of the children of Israel was to be revealed in the flesh" found in 1SM p.232 AND SOME BONUS HERESY: "Angels of God are weighing moral worth" "We are to become familiar with the Levitical law in all its bearings; for it contains rules that must be obeyed" found in MS 42, 1901 (wholesale blindness according to 2 Cor 3:14) | ||
| Markmartin Registered user Username: Markmartin Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2007 |
Video response Rated S – “Smile” All of what I am going to share is said with a great big smile: I didn’t even realize there was a response to the video until one day when I walked into the Arizona Adventist Book Center. I was trying to be discreet, but when I looked down and saw a book that looked strangely like the video and mentioned my name on the cover I realized that wasn’t going to happen! “Wow,” I thought, “good, they really are worried about this stuff.” I have not chosen to offer a rebuttal to Bob Pickle’s response to “The Spirit Behind the Church” because it seemed like a waste of time to go back and explain every sentence of the video. The facts stand for themselves. Thinking Adventists can look up the references for themselves, most of which are from the standard works of Ellen White and publications of the SDA church. Is there anything in the video that isn’t well known to almost every North American Adventist leader by now anyway? If I had the time it might be fun to write a response entitled: “Probing Pickle’s Problems.” I would recommend a viewing of Veggie Tales “David and the Giant Pickle.” | ||
| Markmartin Registered user Username: Markmartin Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2007 |
This is kind of long, but here are just a few thoughts about Jesus being Michael the Archangel and the misuse of Charles Spurgeon to support the Adventist claim: In Spurgeon’s sermon, "The Resurrection of the Dead," he clearly refers to Michael as an angel. Commenting on Jude 9, he says, “There is a remarkable passage in Jude, where it speaks of Michael the archangel contending with the devil about the body of Moses, and using no “railing accusation.” Now, this refers to the great doctrine of angels watching over the bones of the saints. Certainly, it tells us that the body of Moses was watched over by a great archangel; the devil thought to disturb that body, but Michael contended with him about it. Now would there be a contention about that body if it had been of no value? Would Michael contend for that which was only to be the food of worms? …The guardianship of the bodies of the saints by angels proves that they shall rise again from the dead.” (see ”The New Park Street Pulpit, “The Resurrection of the Dead,” A Sermon (No. 66) Delivered on Sabbath Morning, February 17, 1856 at New Park Street Chapel, Southwark). Obviously, in this sermon Charles Spurgeon considers Michael the archangel to be an angel, and not the Lord Jesus Christ. An important point to keep in mind is that the Adventist doctrine of Jesus being Michael the archangel is rooted in the early Adventist doctrinal heresy of Arianism, --the belief that Jesus is not God, the Son, but a created, exalted being. This heresy also denies the Trinity. The list of SDA “pioneers” who denied the Trinity and the diety of Christ during the first fifty years of Adventism reads like a “Who’s Who” of early Adventism: James White, Joseph Bates, Uriah Smith, J.N. Loughborough, and J. H. Waggoner. While these men were proclaiming that all other churches were Babylon and that “true believers” should come out of “apostate protestantism” they couldn’t even get the doctrine of the Trinity straight! This is a really embarrassing fact that you don’t hear much about in SDA history classes or at the camp meeting ‘Ellen White and Adventist Heritage’ rallies. It was not until the 1890s that Adventists began to get a grip on these basic Christian doctrines. Colleen Tinker wrote an excellent article about this in Proclamation a few months ago, --a must-read for anyone studying this topic. We should be very careful to observe that Adventists must leave Scripture and grasp at a few non-biblical references from a preacher or two of the past in order to hang onto this “remnant” of the Arian heresy they once propagated and believed. Hmm, --where’s the biblical evidence that Jesus is an angel? Apparently someone has forgotten Hebrews 1:3-5: “And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are my son, today I have begotten you?” NAS | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 746 Registered: 6-2006  |
This subject about Spurgeon "teaching" that Jesus was Michael just came up on CARM. The thread is called "Jesus is not an angel". The arguement was "Well, Wikipedia says that Spurgeon and John Gill taught that Jesus was Michael". I wrote to both archives to verify that statement and both sources replied that it wasn't true. Basically this SDA member was using the arguement that "other people besides the SDA's and JW's belive it", which ended, really, in a rabbit hole. It's an odd doctrine, there's really no point to it, and at the same time knocks Jesus down to angel status, which is rediculous. Frankly, I don't care if CS Lewis taught it, it's still wrong and can't be supported by scripture! The thing that always sticks out in my mind is that the SDA church always points to something else other than Jesus. It may be EGW, or the sabbath, or dietary laws, always itself, and in this instance, Michael. That veil is awfully thick, don't you think? Great to see you Pastor Mark! I know you're busy, but I hope you'll visit more.  Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2032 Registered: 10-2004  |
Pastor Mark, it's great to see you on the forum! I know many of us on here have benefited greatly from your ministry. Thanks so much for everything you have done to help Adventists and former Adventists (and never-been-Adventists, warning them about Adventism)! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on August 13, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6548 Registered: 12-2003 |
Welcome to the forum, Mark! Great insights re: Michael and Jesus.Thanks! I agree that there's no need for you to respond to Bob Pickle. Indeed, as you said, SDA leaders actually know the truth of all those issues. Colleen | ||
| Markmartin Registered user Username: Markmartin Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2007 |
Thanks Jeremy. I'm thinking about doing some more studio interviews with former Adventists discussing topics that would be helpful for people transitioning out of Adventism. What are some topics that you think would be important to cover? Pastor Mark | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2033 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hmm, important topics to cover, let me see... The human spirit and the state of the dead is an important topic I think; the identity and nature of the Trinity/Michael/Jesus/the Holy Spirit; and also the SDA scapegoat doctrine is also very important I think and it seems to be one of the teachings that is not talked about very much with regard to Adventism--even amongst us formers. For me, it was the scapegoat teaching that made me realize without any doubt that Ellen White had to be a false prophet. And the Sabbath, of course, is another important one. In fact, your audio messages on your website, Pastor Mark, really helped me and my family see the truth about the Sabbath. (Anyone else want to offer some suggestions for topics to cover? ) Jeremy P.S. By the way, Pastor Mark, I was watching the service at your church last night online, and I must say that that was the most entertaining announcements period I've ever witnessed!  | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 969 Registered: 10-2002  |
Pastor Mark, it's great to see you online. Thanks for all you've done for former Adventist ministry! I think the main topic which I think can help is simply the gospel, that Christ is our righteousness, that we're not saved by keeping the law (not now nor in the 'end times'). Although many liberal Adventist churches/ministers are trying to base themselves solely on grace and faith, there is still a great difference. I think it would be interesting to interview formers and hear them talk about that difference -- between the grace/faith messages they found in liberal Adventism versus the grace & faith they found after Adventism. Blessings in Jesus, Ramone Romero (in Osaka, Japan) | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 578 Registered: 11-2005 |
Pastor Mark, I am overjoyed to see you here! Your website has been an important resource as I transitioned out of Adventism and Ellenology. You have many valuable PDF resources. I have especially enjoyed your video as well as your work on the Covenants. One area that I have not seen anyone really address is what Ellen White refers to as "The Great Controversy." There is plenty of material pointing out how her concept of a Great Controversy has been "weighed in the balances and found wanting." This same subject has its tentacles into a lot of other SDA theology. 1844 and the Investigative Judgment, State of the Dead, and on and on. At the top of my wish list would be a "lucid" explanation from someone such as yourself explaining what is actually valid thinking for us to "fill that vacuum" with. While it would confront the falsehood portrayed within Great Controversy (including the myth that God is on trial and the Adventists will rescue His legitimacy), more importantly it will enlighten us on what to replace that with. What about the origin of Sin, the role of Satan, of God, of Jesus, of the angels, etc. Does that request make sense? As I fantasize I am imagining also a 6-panel fold-out brochure that could be handed out to people attending "Prophecy Countdown" seminars, etc, encouraging them to purchase your video for "the rest of the Great Controversy story." Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Markmartin Registered user Username: Markmartin Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2007 |
Gilbert,Ramero, and Jeremy, You're suggestions are very insightful. I knew that if I heard from some of you, it would be a big help. If you think of more topics, please keep them coming! We're planning to be in studio this week and in weeks to come. It is a blessing to meet you and talk with you and hear what the Lord Jesus is doing in your lives. Pastor Mark | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 148 Registered: 5-2007  |
Pastor Mark, The suggestions already mention are really good. I especially identify with the "Scapegoat" topic because that is what finally convinced me EGW was guilty of heresy and not God's prophet. Of course, every message should focus on the gospel at some point. Three topics that I would add to the list are: 1. Assurance of salvation, because until I gained that in my life, all other messages didn't seem to matter. 2. "Works" being the result of a saving faith, not what produces faith. An understanding of Grace leads one to understand that our performance, what we do, is never a formula that leads to our salvation. 3. One other is; how to reach out to those still locked into SDA beliefs in such a way they will respond. I am looking for ways to reach my extended SDA family. Phil | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2043 Registered: 10-2004 |
Leigh Anne, I saw your post several days ago over on CARM where you gave another Spurgeon quote that says that Michael and Jesus are not one and the same, and I thought I would quote part of your post over here:
And that sermon can be found at: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/2265.htm And just to get more of the context, here is the entire paragraph, as found at the above link:
Jeremy | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 753 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hey Jeremy! Darn it, I wish I had posted the entire paragraph, but I was just concentrating on the "angel" portion of it. It would have been good to share the whole thing, as Spurgeon summed up eternal salvation so well. That would have been a good "two-fer" if you ask me! Thanks, Leigh Anne |
