| Author | Message | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 675 Registered: 4-2006  |
Hi everybody, Just noticed that there are new Studio Interviews up on http://www.exadventist.com Check them out here: http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Audio/tabid/57/Default.aspx#CONV In His wonderful grace, Martin | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 505 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks, Martin. I'm listening to this right now. Praise God! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2016 Registered: 10-2004  |
If I hear one more person "praise" The Desire of Ages, I think I'm gonna explode! It is one of the most blasphemous books ever written. I don't understand why people keep repeating the "rumor" that it is "good" or teaches the "Gospel"--is it just a stereotype that people repeat without seeing for themselves what it teaches? I would hope so, but it is even repeated by people who say they've read it. Is this the Gospel?:
And continuous statement blaspheming Jesus after statement blaspheming Jesus...how is that GOOD!? Is it good to teach a different Jesus, a false Jesus, a fallible and weak and less-than-God gnostic Jesus? Paragraph after paragraph... Sorry, guys, the frustration has just finally boiled over for me, regarding NON-/EX-Adventists saying The Desire of Ages is a good book. Thanks for letting me vent my frustrations. Jeremy | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 112 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jeremy, that quote you wrote from "Desire of Ages" is just one more example of how Ellen White subtly undermines a person's assurance of salvation and directs a person's focus to their own performance and efforts rather than to Christ alone. Dianne | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 523 Registered: 11-2005 |
Martin, those interviews have been such an inspiration! They really demonstrate the gracious influence of the Holy Spirit. I especially like the part where Adventist pastors are asking Mark how his church growth is so successful, and he gives all the credit to God. Another point that I liked was the clarification between Adventism's gospel, and Christianity's Gospel. I have been searching for a definition that clarified the difference between the two. ==== Adventist Gospel ==== (Jonathan Bilima) 1. Three Angel's Message that the hour of God's judgment has come. 2. We need to start keeping the Sabbath because that is going to be the "last day" test. 3. We need to tell other people that Jesus Christ is coming soon so they need to come out of their Sunday churches, and start worshiping on the true day of worship. 4. People need to start eating foods that are not "unclean". 5. People need to stop wearing jewelry. 6. "Things like that." (Greg Taylor) Grace + Works = Eternal Life (religious bigamy as described in Romans 7) ==== Christian Gospel ==== (Mark Martin) 1. Death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures" 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 I find it very interesting to contemplate the huge difference in focus, in light of the recent discussion of Adventism and its proximity to Christianity. There simply is no way to harmonize Christianity with the teachings of Ellen White. The superstructure of Adventist doctrinal positions limit the Holy Spirit and the study of the Word to the interpretation of Ellen White. Thank you so much for this excellent link. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Bigal Registered user Username: Bigal Post Number: 81 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jeremy, I am with your brother. The more I speak with my mother (long time SDA) about Jesus and our assurance through His grace and then see her doubt plainly what is written in the Bible, I get angry. I am angry that an organized, so called Christian religion can infuse such doubt into her mind and the minds of its followers. It appears to me that darkness has again perpetrated the original sin of "we can be like god(s) by eating the fruit"(by working out our own salvation). My mother cannot feel secure, because she does not feel she is good enough yet. I did not express this anger to her yesterday during our weekly phone call. I did however let my wife know my frustration. She agrees totally with that assessment. Evil should cause us to be angry when it hurts the ones we love. Alan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6478 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jeremy, I agree with you. When people talk about The Desire of Ages (or Steps to Christ, etc.) being such lovely books protraying the gospel in a manner that makes it possible for people to accept Jesus, I find myself tensing inside. Usually I resist much comment, but those books do not present the true gospel...not even Steps to Christ. As a friend of mine wrote to me recently, The Desire of Ages and Steps to Christ are full of pretty-good-sounding gospel passages that she copied from Christian authors. These orthodox-sounding statements are the sugar used to get people to swallow the poison. If she was a false prophet, if she was not a true messenger of God, we have no business even grudgingly recommending her books. Her books lead with good-sounding stuff, but those same books also contain the poison. We can recommend the Bible. We can even recommend supplemental commentary by Christian authors when we want to suggest additional understandings. But we have no business suggesting that any of her books are useful in the pursuit of godliness. Colleen | ||
| Bigal Registered user Username: Bigal Post Number: 82 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jeremy, I'm with you brother.  Alan | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 138 Registered: 5-2007  |
As a teenage member of the SDA church and going to an SDA school I was, of course, required to read and study EGW materials. Even though I believed SDA teaching, the only "book" of hers that I ever read all the way through was "Steps To Christ". It seem to be absolute gibberishness to me and was one of the reason I thought there must be something wrong with my ability to reason and think. This, along with other similar issues related to SDAism, contributed to my extremely poor self image. Years later, when I found out that I was a person with above average intelligence, it was a great shock to me. For instance, when I took the SAT test at the Napa College, the administration called me in to let me know that I had just set the all time record for their school. For someone who didn't think he could think, this was mind boggling. By the way, reading the many different postings on this forum has been a great blessing. Most of them I don't respond to but they are all important and are forcing me to dig deep within myself. Even though I will probably not ever meet most of you this side of heaven, you folks have become an important part of my extended family. Your questions are opening up a lot of "baggage" that I have hidden away. Phil  | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 63 Registered: 6-2007 |
I am with you also Jeremy. The Desire of Ages was always held up as the "nice little, non-offensive EGW book", the one we could share with people and they would never know it was full of lies, plagarism, embelishment. It's just a book on the life of Jesus right???? WRONG!!!! I was part of a sabbath school class right before I left the SDA church that was basically made up of the misfits and people who did not fully support the doctrines of the church. We, as a group, refused to study the quarterly and would study other books like The Purpose Driven Life. One of the elders found out we were not using the quarterly and pretty much forced us to study the Desire of Ages. I refused to read it or discuss it. He assigned us a chapter every week. Nobody read it, and we just talked about things that were important to us and shared with each other about our lives, problems, and tried to encourage each other. We never did finish that book, never even came close to finishing it. Laurie | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2007 |
Jeremy, When ever I hear anyone espousing EGW I run to the book of Galations and read it several times as Paul talks about false teachers (Judiziers). I had done a study of the book by John MacArthur and in his into he says:"When men and women get their hands on relligions, one of the first things they often do is turn it into an instrument for controlling others, either putting or keeping them in their place." In Shephers's Notes it points out the following: 1. Legalism appeals to pride as it can be reduced to regulations, those who try hard can feel good about their accomplishments. 2. Legalism is more natural to human experience. It put religion on the same basis as most of the rest of our experiences, which are transactions involving effort and competition. 3. Legalism is easier to manage than grace. If righteiosness can be reduced to certain well-defined duties, a person can do these more easily than he can exercise a life-changeing faith. Christian freedom requires the inner motivation of the Holy Spirit, but legalism provides the external force of laws and punishments. Those who administer the regulations can control other people, as many cult leaders do, by defining the rules their way. 4. Legalism seems safer than grace. Freedom is dangerous. If matters are left up to the conscience of the individual, there is more danger of confusion and mistakes. Insecure people fear that life will get out of control and they feel better if someone with authority will tell them what to do. After reading these I got to thinking about what all EGW wrote that did not dictate to how we were to live our lives from what to eat to sex to how to raise or children, etc. Talk about being a puppet in the SDA hands. I am on bended knee everyday thanking God for bring me out and teaching me to think again for myself through the Holy Spirit and His words. To borrow Dianne's saying: GOD IS AWESOME! I just wish our brothers and sisters could see it. Bigal, instead of trying to go head to head with your mom over EGW, why not try going in the back door by inserting something about legalism you have learned and maybe it will be just enough of a seed to get her to thinking. Ask her if she has ever studied the book of Galations and if not suggest you study it together strictly from the bible without intervention from EGW. I'll be praying for you as you try to reach your mom about the freedom Jesus gives us and we don't any longer have to worry about if we are good enough. Gail | ||
| Bigal Registered user Username: Bigal Post Number: 83 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thank you Gail, I have asked her to read Galatians a few weeks ago. She asked me if I thought it was okay for her to use the Clear Word. I said she should try and stick with a literal translation. My problem is this has to be a phone study. She is in Oregon and I am in Arkansas. I believe she will read, but only see the text through her SDA mindset. I have taken the tact to not put down EGW, but to elevate the Bible only as we study. Thank you for the prayers, Alan | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 526 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jeremy, Do you know one of the things that really frustrates me about Ellen White? It is almost spooky. I don't see how a person that is "just sick" could even come up with such an elaborate facade of false logic. She promotes a falsehood, and then claims that a sign of apostasy is when someone tries to discredit her falsehood! Today I was thinking about 2 Corinthians 5, and the many passages that support immortality of the soul. And then, of course, she states that promotion of the Biblical doctrine of immortality of the soul will be one of the devil's great last-day deceptions! Hence, anyone who believes in her is going to call falsehood truth, and truth a falsehood, and a confirming sign that she was right! The same goes for pointing out falsehoods in her "Testimonies". She states the devil, once again, will be behind any attempt to discredit the falsehoods in her Testimonies, and make them "of non effect." Likewise, in Great Controversy she flat-out states that the Seal of God is the Seventh-day Sabbath, while the Bible clearly states in numerous places that it is the Holy Spirit. Of course she says that anyone who tries to point that out is an agent of the Devil. It is almost impossible to win, unless a potential seeker of truth is willing to acknowledge that perhaps she was a false prophet. It is almost demonic the way she has a moat built around all of her falsehoods. This can't be blamed on anyone else. She is the one who claimed God "showed" her all of this. She is the one who wrote all this stuff. And then by Seventh-day Adventism claiming that she is the final word on everything, that makes it impossible to carry on any form of intelligent dialog. In Sabbath School class, for example, I heard one of the church elders state that he felt a lot more comfortable with the idea of a "one person God" than a "three person God". People can voice any opinion they want to about the Bible, but when Ellen White has spoken that is the end of any discussion. Her opinion "trumps" anytyhing the bible says. That is a fact. How does one break through this "moat" mentality? Even if we show an Adventist what the Bible says, they come back with their out-of-context proof texts, and more of her twisted logic. Mental pictures of Doug Batchelor prancing around with a Bible in his hand come to mind. But he doesn't preach the Gospel. Instead it is a bunch of dancing around, and captivating people with apocalyptic prophecy. Sound doctrine was never built on apocalyptic prophecy. And then they surround themselves with a Time-of-Trouble persecution complex, and make the Catholic Church the bogey man. It is just a really, really messed up system. Instead of facing up to her falsehoods, they just try to keep re-inventing her. Even the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses don't use false logic that is this convoluted. David Koresh's cult is an example of the kind of "fruit" that they produce. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 511 Registered: 5-2007 |
Excellent observation, Gilbert! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1241 Registered: 9-2006  |
I believe it is a spirit of deceit here that we are dealing with, hence the elaborate moat mentality. I believe unless we face up to the fact that there are even such evil entity's that do work, are at work to deceive men we hold ourselves at a great disadvantage in dealing with it and fighting it. I am just not sure how to go about fighting against these spirits that we cannot see. I think it is a spiritual force that works to keep them deceived in spite of and at the same time you show them Bible truth. I have even felt this powerful pull of Adventism and I have never been anywhere near turning to Adventism and don't tell me it was my imagination either, if what I have felt and continue to feel emanating off my Adventist friends from time to time is anything but a power, i'll eat my sweaty ball cap. Like I say, I just don't as yet know how to handle it. I am waiting for God to show me what to do. I know this sounds weird, but it ain't no weirder than that moat mentality. Gilbert, I think you are on the right track to be amazed at it. I think we are dealing with a powerful deceiving force and we need to find out how to deal with it. You could debate with the thing until your face turned blue and not get anywhere because you are not debating with a human, you are debating with a spirit who has blinded the eyes of a human and so what he speaks the human speaks. Now I know this is all gonna go over like a lead balloon! But at least I know what I am dealing with and I am not going to waste my time going head to head in a debate with a deceiving spirit like a dog chasing his tail. Before I get in a debate with them God is going to have to direct me to do so by his Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit ain't debating with them why should I? River | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 409 Registered: 8-2006 |
Amen to all the above! (I've no more time to post as I'm about to board a plane for Little Rock) Susan | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 514 Registered: 5-2007 |
Have a safe flight to Little Rock, Susan. | ||
| Lucybugg Registered user Username: Lucybugg Post Number: 61 Registered: 2-2007 |
I always thought something was wrong with me because I tried to read The Desire of Ages and Steps to Christ and couldn't get into them. Years later my mother admitted she had the same problem. I thought I was the only one because everyone else always talked about what lovely and inspiring books they were. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 515 Registered: 5-2007 |
You should see what the Adventists on CARM say about that. They go so far as to accuse us formers and non-Adventists of accusing Jesus of sinning regarding the Sabbath. I am convinced the Adventists are the Pharisees of this day and age. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 139 Registered: 5-2007 |
Lucybugg, I have a theory: When you say, concerning EGW materials; "couldn't get into them", then you are showing the mark of a humble intelligent person. It is the willfully blind person (the fool) who doesn't see the problem with EGW books when they are confronted with the evidence. God created our minds and we are ment to use them but pride can get in the way of what little intelligence we may have. The humble person, on the other hand, is willing to be led by the Holy Spirit and sees the contrictions. You may not have the answers but you do see the problem. What contricts God's Word is non-functional, and even if we don't know where in the problems lays, our inner being can not accept what is being said. When we go to God's Word only, we have questions and there could be mysteries that we have to let lay, but we don't end up with contrictions ruining our lives. God's Word is real. It is truth and it always works. A humble person accepts the leading of the Holy Spirit and uses the brain God gave us to think, reason, and through faith, apply what we know to be true. We see what does not come from God and reject it. Phil |
