| Author | Message | ||
| Bsim Registered user Username: Bsim Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2007 |
If the sanctuary in Daniel 8:14 refers to the heavenly sanctuary as Adventists claim, then what was "the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot" in Daniel 8:13. When was the heavenly sanctuary trampled underfoot? Verse 13 is talking about the same sanctuary, right? I asked this in sabbath school class during the quarter that the investigative judgement was studied. Imagine, no one had an answer for me, although the head elder told me after class that he would get back to me with an answer. I am still waiting........ (Sorry if this has been discussed here before - I tried to do a search on this and didn't come up with anything). | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6499 Registered: 12-2003  |
Bsim, I think you've just identified one of Adventism's core prooftexts and the problems of yanking it out of context. I don't remember having verse 13 explained to me in the context of Adventism's view of verse 14. It's all confusion... Colleen | ||
| Bsim Registered user Username: Bsim Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2007 |
I have never heard any explanations about Daniel 8:13. In all the prophecy seminars and bible studies, it is always Daniel 8:14 that is stressed. I don't want to belabor this, I was just wondering if anyone has ever had an Adventist give an explanation of what Daniel 8:13 means in connection with 8:14. Bsim | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 540 Registered: 11-2005 |
Bsim, First I will quote the verses in question with their context: I looked in the SDA Commentary. Dan 8:13 has about 1-1/2 inches, most of which just cross-references to other verses. Verse 14, on the other hand has about 1-1/2 pages! I next checked Daniel and the Revelation by Uriah Smith. This book should align closely with most Adventist thinking. An online copy is available at http://www.nisbett.com/prophecy/pdr/default.htm. Daniel 8 is covered at http://www.nisbett.com/prophecy/pdr/drdan08.htm. In order to get the context you will want to start reading with page 155. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 206 Registered: 8-2006  |
Bsim, Good question. I wish all Adventist would would ask logical questions like yours. I always wondered why the 2300 days = years, but the "Day of atonement" didn't = 1 year. Where does the day year prophecy application start and stop? Apparently the SDA "Day" when talking about atonement, means, "The 'time until Christ comes' of atonement." ??? I got the same reply you had from your elder, "Get back with you..." (I'm still waiting too) | ||
| Bsim Registered user Username: Bsim Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2007 |
Gilbert, thank you for the link. I have read through it (scanning through some of it) and find the typical SDA teaching. But nothing directly speaking to verse 13. Mostly the explanations are to support the teaching of the investigative judgment. Timmy, I never thought of the day of atonement only equaling one year. That is a good question too. So many unanswered and confusing aspects to this teaching. I have always thought that God is powerful enough to go through the "investigative judgement" in the time it takes to snap our fingers. He already knows everything, why have to go through the books to determine who is to be saved? Why should it take so many years? Bsim | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 543 Registered: 11-2005 |
Bsim, It gets even more ludicrous when you consider that according to their theory it doesn't even include everybody! And what do they plan to do when it gets to be 200 years? Will they have a celebration? Will they try to ignore it? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 522 Registered: 5-2007 |
I think they'll "freak out" when it gets to be 200 years. | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 264 Registered: 1-2004  |
I think I've heard SDA's teach that Rome tramples down the heavenly reality by making people look at an earthly imitation. Look at the way the churches and the mass strongly resembles what happens in heaven (some of the old churches have a holy place and most holy place etc in architecture). They say that the Pope replaces Christ and that the mass replaces the heavenly sanctuary and it's activities we should be looking at. The time frame would be from the start of the Roman church till the end of the investigative judgment I think. I don't remember how it is explained that this trampling down happened during the whole 2300 years though. Maybe pagan Rome before Christ somehow caused the Jews to forget what was going on in heaven? We don't have a historic SDA on here to tell us. Jeremiah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6509 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremiah, it was a mass of confusion, wasn't it?! It sort-of makes me feel foggy to try and remember it all... Colleen | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 134 Registered: 8-2005 |
Jeremiah: "I don't remember how it is explained that this trampling down happened during the whole 2300 years though." That's the question that I have never heard answered successfully by an SDA either. Exactly what started trampling the sanctuary in 457 B.C.? | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 735 Registered: 6-2006  |
Brian, I found this on JewishEncyclopedia.com. It's an article on how and why Antiochus Epiphanes came into Jerusalem. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1589&letter=A&search=Antiochus%20Epiphanes This is an excerpt. (Sorry for the length!) "He first entered Jerusalem amicably; then suddenly turning upon the defenseless city, he murdered, plundered, and burnt through its length and breadth. The men were butchered, women and children sold into slavery, and in order to give permanence to the work of desolation, the walls and numerous houses were torn down. The old City of David was fortified anew by the Syrians, and made into a very strong fortress completely dominating the city. Having thus made Jerusalem a Greek colony, the king's attention was next turned to the destruction of the national religion. A royal decree proclaimed the abolition of the Jewish mode of worship; Sabbaths and festivals were not to be observed; circumcision was not to be performed; the sacred books were to be surrendered and the Jews were compelled to offer sacrifices to the idols that had been erected. The officers charged with carrying out these commands did so with great rigor; a veritable inquisition was established with monthly sessions for investigation. The possession of a sacred book or the performance of the rite of circumcision was punished with death. On Kislew (Nov.-Dec.) 25, 168, the "abomination of desolation" (, Dan. xi. 31, xii. 11) was set up on the altar of burnt offering in the Temple, and the Jews required to make obeisance to it. This was probably the Olympian Zeus, or Baal Shamem.See Abomination of Desolation. Antiochus, however, had misunderstood the true character of Judaism, if he thought to exterminate it by force. His tyranny aroused both the religious and the political consciousness of the Jews, which resulted in the revolution led by the Maccabees. After the passive resistance of the Ḥasidim (pious ones), who, much to the surprise of the Hellenes, suffered martyrdom by hundreds, the Hasmonean Mattathias organized open resistance in 167-166, which, through the heroic achievements of his son and successor Judas the Maccabee in defeating two large and well-equipped armies of Antiochus, grew to formidable proportions. Antiochus realized that a serious attempt must be made to put down the rising, but was himself too busily occupied against the Parthians to take personal charge. Lysias, whom he had left as regent in Syria, received instructions to send a large army against the Jews and exterminate them utterly. But the generals Ptolemæus, Nicanor, and Gorgias, whom Lysias despatched with large armies against Judah, were defeated one after the other (166-165), and compelled to take refuge upon Philistine soil. Lysias himself (165) was forced to flee to Antioch, having been completely routed by the victorious Jews. But although he began to gather new forces, nothing was accomplished in the lifetime of Antiochus, who died shortly thereafter in Tabæ in Persia, 164." The Jews believe that the sanctuary has been cleansed. (and it was their sanctuary!) The Jews also believe that those passages in Daniel have been fulfilled even before Jesus was born. Now what is the purpose of the SDA church to take ownership of those prophesies? Can you really fulfill a prophesy twice? Am I way off base? Leigh Anne | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 736 Registered: 6-2006 |
One last thing - this is from the calendar on www.ariel.org HANUKAH Hanukah (dedication), commemorates the re-dedication of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem in 165 B.C. by the Maccabees exactly 3 years after it was desecrated by Antiochus Epiphanes (Dan 8:13-14). | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 552 Registered: 11-2005 |
Leigh Anne, That is fascinating! Thank you. Adventism certainly has an inflated ego, doesn't it. The interesting thing about a cult ("if the shoe fits, wear it!") is that a cult teaches (among other things) that they alone are the sole repository of truth, and that membership is require to reach nirvana. They can oftentimes be identified by using the prefix "non-" in front of their name to refer to anyone who is not a "believer". I am more and more convinced that Adventism is a repository for cultic doctrine. (There you go. How is that for a definition that even Dale Ratzlaff would agree with? <grin>) Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 524 Registered: 5-2007 |
I totally agree with you, Gilbert. | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 135 Registered: 8-2005 |
Thanks for the info Grace_alone. And I completly agree that Daniel 8 is fulfilled by Antiochus, but even Antiochus did not start trampling the sanctuary in 457 BC. Maybe you misunderstood my question. According to the SDA understanding of the 2300 day prophecy. "Something" had to start trampling the sanctuary in 457 BC. In Dale Ratzlaff's book that is one of the main questions he could never get answered by any SDA scholars or executives. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 737 Registered: 6-2006 |
Oops! Sorry - I guess that's the part of the SDA doctrine I don't quite understand. To me it's a bunch of gobbledygoop, but what is it that you're looking for? Can you (or someone) help me understand what the timeline of the SDA's prophesy is? From my perspective the OT is all about Isreal. When the SDA church comes along and tries to project the OT onto themselves and then impose it upon others as the "Truth", not to mention taking Isreal's prophesies and rearranging them to fit their agenda it just seems so outrageous, and hard to relate to. I do want to understand though, because it helps me get inside where my SDA family is coming from. Leigh Anne | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 78 Registered: 5-2007 |
Once when I Googled such things, I read that Jerome the early church historian reported seeing 2200 evening-mornings in Daniel 8:14 in a very early copy. In another writeup the Greek Septuagent is said to have the number set at 2400. I wonder how many sda's have been aware of such deviant numbers, and if not, why not? (tongue in cheek there) Not being a theologan or expert, I really do not know how to interpret all these deviants, but the silence is just about deafening! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4125 Registered: 3-2004  |
Leigh Anne, When I read Daniel a couple years ago, and came to the 2300 days, down in the explanation of the verse it mentions Antiochus Epiphanes as being the fulfillment. I never bothered to research it like you have. I did ask a question, here, about it. So, thank you for putting all that on here. And Hanukah is the celebration of the cleansing of the temple. That is very interesting. The more I find out about the SDA church beliefs the happier I am that God took each of us out of there and in your case Leigh Anne, you never got sucked in. Thank you. Diana | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 136 Registered: 8-2005 |
Some interesting reading. I don't remember where I got it. THE NUMBER SHOULD BE 2200 It may surprise some Seventh-day Adventists to learn that, although the author of their book, "Thoughts on Daniel," has quoted Dr. Hales to prove that there is no number in the Bible whose genuineness is better ascertained than that of the 2,300 days, that it is by no means true that 2,300 is the correct number. When Jesus was on earth, He quoted from the Septuagint or Greek translation by the LXX, as also did His disciples after him, and yet in that translation (Vatican MSS) the number is given as 2400. If Jesus had attached the importance to the 2,300 days (or "evening-morning") that the Adventists do, He no doubt would have called attention to the discrepancy, but He knew that these days (or "evening-morning") had passed and could have no serious effect upon the future - hence His silence. Then, too, some of the older copies of the book of Daniel, noticed by the great scholar and translator of the Vulgate, Jerome, give the number as "2,200 evening morning," which is perhaps correct, as the oldest manuscripts are without question more true to the original. Clearly, then, Seventh-day Adventists are out of joint with the prophecy in every particular. The difference in figures noted above is the fault of copyists, who never claimed inspiration and were never credited with being inspired. The figures 2,200 appearing in the oldest manuscripts, have greater claim to our acceptance, particularly so, in as much as the actual historical occurrences fit these figures ("2200") to a nicety - We are furnished with the exact time or date when the desolation of the sanctuary and abolition of the daily, evening and morning sacrifices took place, as follows: On the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the one hundred forty-fifth year (of the Selucid era, or 168 B. C.), they set up the abomination of desolation on the altar (1 Mac. 1:54). On that date the temple was desecrated, an altar and the statue of Jupiter Olympius set up, displacing the worship of Jehovah and putting an end to the Jewish evening and morning sacrifices. Ten days later, on the 25th of Casleu, the sacrifices to Jupiter began and the temple was sprinkled with the broth of swine's flesh. In 1 Mac. 4:52-54, we find the date when the temple service was resumed after its cleansing. We read: Now on the five and twentieth day of the ninth month, which is called the month of Casleu, in the hundred and forty-eighth year [B.C. 165], they rose up betimes in the morning and offered sacrifices according to the law upon the new altar of burnt offerings, which they had made. Look at what time and what day the heathen had profaned it, even in that it was dedicated with songs, and citherns, and harps and cymbals. Josephus also bears witness to these dates, as follows: This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apelleus (Casleu), and on the hundred fifty and third Olympiad: but was dedicated anew on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apelleus (Casleu), on the hundred forty-eighth year and on the hundred and fifty-fourth Olympiad, and this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before: for he declared that the Macedonians (Greeks) would dissolve the worship [for some time] (Antiquities 12, 7, 6). He speaks in another place thus: And that from among them [the four horns of the rough goat] there should arise a certain king that should overcome our nation, and should take away their political government and should spoil the temple, and forbid the sacrifice to be offered for three years' time. And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to "Daniel's vision and what he wrote years before they came to pass" (Antiquities 10, 11, 7). The Jews did not reckon time by the sun, but counted each new moon as the beginning of their religious month. Watchers were appointed to notice the first appearance of the new moon, and as soon as it was observed, trumpets were blown at the temple and fires were lighted upon eminences. These months consisted of 29 1/2 days, or as they counted, 29 days in one month and 30 in the next. Their religious year of 12 months consisted of 354 days and to equalize their time with the solar year, they added an intercalary month of 29 days every three years. It will be observed that Josephus counts three years from the time the heathen sacrifice began in the temple of the Lord until the sanctuary was cleansed and the morning and evening sacrifices were again resumed; but according to Judas Maccabees, before quoted, the Jewish sacrifices were set aside ten days before the heathen sacrifices began (1 Mac. 1:543), so to get the correct time, we must count three years and ten days. Let us do some figuring: Three years of 354 days each, equal ...1062 days. One intercalary month ...29 days. From 15th to 25th of Casleu...10 days. Total time ...1101 days. This included the 25th day of Casleu, which was the day that the daily evening and morning sacrifices were resumed, after the cleansing, hence it is necessary to deduct this one day, as the abolition of sacrifices and desecration were brought to an end the preceding day (24th) and the sacrifices were resumed the 25th day. This makes our total just 1100 days. Counting two sacrifices each day, one evening and one morning, we multiply 1100 times 2 and see that 2200 sacrifices were abolished. This harmonizes with the prophecy and is in accord with the older versions seen by Jerome as well as with the reckoning of Josephus, and this establishes the fact that the more correct rendering of the text would be: "...Unto two thousand and two hundred evening morning (sacrifices) then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." JOSEPHUS CLEARS THE RECORD OF DANIEL 8:14 It is very evident that what Josephus says of Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilling the prophecy of Daniel in desecrating the temple and abolishing the morning and evening sacrifices for three years, is established beyond peradventure of doubt, and that he resorted to the oldest manuscripts obtainable. This should settle any discussion or question as to the time period of Daniel 8:14. It is unimpeachable evidence that the correct rendering is "2200 days," or "evening and morning" (sacrifices) and NOT "2300," as our King James version gives it. We have diligently searched the writings of Josephus and among other evidence substantiating the conclusions herein set forth, we find Josephus saying: Now that Scripture which is laid up in the temple, informs us... (Antiquities, Book 3, Ch.1, end of last part). And again, he says: I have translated the Antiquities out of our sacred books; which I easily could do, since I was a priest by birth, and have studied that philosophy which is contained in those writings (Against Apion, Par. 10). Commenting further as to the holy books (Scripture), to which he had access, Josephus says that these ancient manuscripts fell into his own possession following the destruction of Jerusalem; that they were presented to him by Titus. He says: Moreover, when the city of Jerusalem was taken by force, Titus Caesar persuaded me frequently to take whatever I would of the ruins of my country, and said that he gave me leave so to do; but when my country was destroyed, I thought nothing else to be of any value which I could take and keep as a comfort under my calamities; so I made this request to Titus, that my family might have their liberty: I had also the holy books by Titus's concession (Life of Josephus, written by himself. Whiston's Josephus, p. 35). The "holy books" referred to in this quotation, comprised the whole of what we now call the Old Testament; for proof of which see Flavius Josephus against Apion, Whiston's Josephus, Bk.1, Par.7. Thus it appears that Josephus not only had access to the oldest Scriptures, while the temple was standing, but actually owned them after the destruction of Jerusalem. These were the very Scriptures which were in use in the temple at Jerusalem in the time of Christ and these gave the reading of the time period in Daniel 8:14 as "2200 evening morning;" of this there can be no question. In view of all the evidence presented, even the most skeptical must be convinced that Daniel 8:14 should properly read: "...Unto two thousand two hundred evening morning (sacrifices), then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" Josephus was an honorable man and a scholar, a firm believer in the inspiration of the Jewish Scriptures of which he said in his writings against Apion "which are justly believed to be divine," and then he tells us that the temple was desecrated for three years and of these three years, that: Indeed it so came to pass that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel's vision and what he wrote years before they came to pass. We would be foolish indeed to suppose that he tried to fit three years into 2300 days - we would be obliged to question the intelligence and honesty of a wonderful scholar and the best Jewish historian who ever lived, and knowing that he took his reckoning from history less than two hundred years in the past and compared it with the very Scriptures used in the Jewish temple at Jerusalem in the time of Christ, such imputation would only prove our own ignorance, therefore it remains a settled and proven fact that 2200, and not 2300, is the correct number in Daniel 8:14. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 79 Registered: 5-2007 |
Excellent post Brian. Now I just have one question. Does it seem like the sda church has been fibbing a wee bit? | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 203 Registered: 10-2006 |
It is my humble opinion that the SDA church is soon due for a public exposure that will rip the church apart at the seams. The laity will scatter like confused sheep, desparate for truth, disillusioned, and angry. I believe that many of us, having already gone through those stages, are being prepared by God to help these folks find a safe seat to sit in. I also believe that it will happen literally overnight, and I pray daily that I will be humble, merciful, and prepared by the Holy Spirit to comfort these folks and direct them to the cross of Jesus Christ. steve | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 80 Registered: 5-2007 |
I hope you are right Steve. I am ready to help them when they lose the scales on their eyes. Wow, wouldn't that be something! But the pessimist side of me says that this church IS one of the end time deceptions, that it IS one of Satans babies, and that most individuals within that org have been squelching their consciences for weeks, months, years & decades*. 2 Thess 2 speaks about God giving such over to a lie. Don't ask me to explain why I was chosen to come out and not the next guy  * When something doesn't seem "quite right" they will assume that somewhere, egw has an answer, Goldstein has an answer, or that "someday we will know why this information conflicts with the Bible", or "our conference leaders are aware of this problem and they know the answer" etc. All are red flags that are consistently flattened with the heavy boot of adventism. | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 207 Registered: 10-2006 |
Larry, It is evident to me that, at least in North America, Adventist evangelism has reached its pinnacle some time ago. The numbers will continue to dwindle, in spite of a recent spike in Hispanic, Asian, etc. increases. This movement will not compensate the loss of Traditionals and their money. No racism intended here, simply economic reality. steve | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 574 Registered: 11-2005 |
I have long felt that Adventism had confused it priorities back in the 70's when it started setting "targets" for baptisms. Most baptisms are now occurring in "third-world" countries, where the local population views anything "western" as a better lifestyle than what they currently have. How many of these baptisms are occurring in geographical areas of intense religious persecution? The Adventist baptisms are "quickie" baptisms that don't acquaint the recipient with all the additional Adventist "theological baggage", but provide the Seventh-day Adventist leadership with the baptismal numbers they need. (Thought to self.) That sounds just like what Enron did to keep their stock prices inflated. Gilbert Jorgensen |
