| Author | Message | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 521 Registered: 11-2004 |
I've heard it said somewhere that Adventism does a good job turning people into atheists. If that is true, why do you think it is so? Are there an increasing number of SDAs leaving the church and turning to atheism - more so than other groups? Do you believe a true Christian can become an atheist? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6481 Registered: 12-2003  |
U2bsda--I don't know about other groups, but I believe that in the case of Adventism, when people truly believe (as they have been brainwashed to believe) that Adventism is the Truth, they end up one of two ways if they take it seriously. Those who are intent upon observing the truth as they believe it get sucked farther and farther into compulsiveness and even mental illness as they try vainly to do the things they believe. The other alternaitve is that, at some point, they give up in despair. Adventism just "doesn't work" for them; they can't do it; it's too restrictive, crazy-making, etc. These people don't stop believing Adventism is the truth, but they feel they can no longer DO the truth. These tend to spin off into agnosticism or athiesm. They can't go into another church because they know Adventism is the only true church. Since the only true church makes them crazy, they go into unbelief instead. Instead of living with an impossible "true church", they'll ditch it all and live with nothing. The third alternative is the case of those who somehow catch a glimpse of Jesus and desire to know Him. Those who search for truth (as opposed to simply believing what they've been told about Adventism being the only true religion) begin a trajectory that eventually will lead them out of the church if they don't turn aside and refuse to "know". Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1239 Registered: 9-2006  |
Colleen, I believe in my heart that that is so true, looking at it from the outside in. I would think that this is a result of the false teaching of the IJ mainly, but would involve other factors as well as Adventist seem to be very judgmental, as least some of them I know and there would be no real ministry to one another such as occurs here, because they are all in the same boat. I probably shouldn't write here, I don't have much place, but one thing I think is that there probably is no corporate gathering of spirit filled people so that would be lacking also. Just a thought. We all need that central anchor in Jesus, every one of us every time we gather. River | ||
| Lucybugg Registered user Username: Lucybugg Post Number: 60 Registered: 2-2007 |
As I made my journey out of the SDA church I was bitter and angry. I was so distrustful of anything having to do with religion. I adamantly proclaimed that I would never be associated with another denomination because I'd already been down that road and look how it turned out. Fortunately, in all that bravado and proclaiming there was still the little girl who couldn't reject God and wanted to do as He led. I'm over my anger, and I can feel the bitterness beginning to fade. My brother, on the other hand, believes that SDA is the TRUTH, but he despairs because he'll never be good enough. He quit attending church a long time ago. He always says that when he gets his act together he'll come to God and ask for his forgiveness. How sad is that? What sort of religion teaches that you have to be good enough to come to God? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1240 Registered: 9-2006 |
Lucybugg, I think your brother is also in a dangerous place, none of us know when any number of things will overtake us and death takes place, today, while it is called today is the day of Salvation. How sad it is that a church could drive one to such a dangerous position. Truly Adventism is a monster that murders its own. River | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 513 Registered: 5-2007 |
I just praise God that I didn't wind up an atheist or agnostic. An SDA pastor warned me that if I left Adventism I could wind up being an atheist. Instead I have a fire for and a love for the Lord and a faith in Him I NEVER had as an Adventist. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1242 Registered: 9-2006 |
Reb, I know what you mean brother, I remember the time I drove crooked mountain roads at high speeds just drunker that a hoot owl. I have that to thank for every day that I didn't end up at the bottom of some canyon, by all rights I should be dead, but for the grace of God, there go I. I may be dumb but I'm smart enough to see that. And I love praising him for his mercy. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 114 Registered: 7-2007 |
River, you said, "I probably shouldn't write here," but if you didn't, we'd all miss you - I certainly would! We'd miss your insight and humor! So, don't go anywhere, okay? (We need the insight both of people who've "been there" and people who haven't. It's refreshing to catch a glimpse of how it is looking into Adventism, from someone who's never been there.) Dianne | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 177 Registered: 5-2007 |
You know, it is called burn out. Religon is a practice. Not a science, apparently. I read this on Wilkpedia. It was interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doubt Religon is very much a basis for conducting oneself in life. I wonder , is the cure worse than the disease. If you lead a person out, only to discover there is nothing better, and that there is nothing of substance, what's the point of religon anymore? The fact that even the forum has no consensus on where to go from here points out the main gap in this effort at transition. The message seems to be, it just does not matter where you go, as long as you have a few of the ear marks of orthodox beliefs. To be told how utterly bad and desperately flawed SDA is , then to be told, there are no directions from here is something that is wholly alien to most people of faith from any denomination. The former SDA is left to start all over. It is no wonder agnostism is often the result. Burn out happens from being exhausted as a SDA only to be utterly exhausted trying to find a safe harbour. People walk away as an act of temporal self preservation. Logic mandates, if this causes pain, stop doing it. Not cutting anyones religon. But some people who profess to have it blissfully together do not impress me as having anything better than the illusions we had before. Confidence without reason and basis in fact is merely assumption and emotional rationalizations asserted thru repeated mental validations. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6484 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, River, you should write here! Your "outside observation" about Spirit-filled Adventist gatherings is a really good summary assessment. While I can't make a complete generalization, I do believe that your understanding is on-track. Thank you again for observing things from a "never-been" perspective. Colleen | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 203 Registered: 8-2006  |
U2, Have you ever considered the things Adventism and Atheist have in common? 1. Both want and fight for seperation of church and state. 2. Both do not want to see all churches united. 3. Both feel that someday the 'Christians' will kill all who do not believe the way they do. 4. Both parties think abortion is not a big deal. just to name a few... Google "A letter to a Christian Nation" Written by Athiest Sam Harris, the points he brings up sounds very much like a good old Adventist evangelistic seminar. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6485 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, I'm sorry we've given the impression that there's no place to go. There IS a place to go—and it's more real than any system or group we've ever seen. That "place" is a Person—Jesus. Yesterday Richard and I watched a new video produced about Mormon Fundamentalists—the polygamists. (They are the Mormon equivalent of the Historic Adventists.) At the end of the video, those telling their stories told how they escaped. One woman talked about how she was so shocked to discover that the Gospel was a Person! It wasn't a system or a teaching—it was a Person. Truth, she said in amazement, wasn't a religion but a relationship! Further, she was shocked when she learned that God loved her. She had been taught that God hated her—that her own identity had to be wiped out and replaced with the identity of the group. But God loved her. Another woman, one who was fairly freshly out, said through her tears, that she just couldn't get over knowing that Jesus loved her, and that she loved Him. One young man spoke of discovering that Jesus was actually God, that the thing he had looked for all his years was not found in religion but in Jesus Himself. One man who appeared to be in his 70's said that he left Mormon Fundamentalism when he was 57 years old. He said he didn't know God yet, but he finally understood that his religion was simply not truth. One day, he said, he read a passage in the Bible that spoke of Jesus redeeming us, and he said—as his eyes grew misty—that it was as if Jesus suddenly shined the light in his darkness and showed him truth and reality. I admit that I sat an cried as I heard these people telling of meeting Jesus and knowing that their desperate searching was over. It reflected my own experience so closely. The specific details differed, but the experience of struggling with "the true church", with trying so hard to live up to what I believed was truth and always being agonized because I couldn't, because I had no assurance I could be saved—they were telling my story. Jesus, Jim, is the "place" we go. As another woman in the video said, the joy of knowing He has saved us and is with us, does not leave. He goes with us wherever we go. Truly, Jim, He asks us to trust Him. It's not about a system of belief, of denomination, or a worship style. It's not even about the exact description of our spirit in death, about eschatology, about the true description of hell, about speaking in tongues or not...it's about Jesus. It's about the Person who loves us and chose us, pulling us out of the quagmire of deception and asking us to trust Him as He teaches us and changes us. One of the men on the video talked about how he had to relearn everything he knew. He discovered, he said, that everything he had believed was either skewed or completely wrong, and it took time for him to relearn the Bible. That's where we are, Jim, when we leave Adventism. We have to relearn everything! But now we trust the Lord Jesus to reveal Himself to us through His word, to lead us, to meet us when we worship with other Christ-followers. We learn, as Romans 8 describes, to live by the Spirit. Jim, I'm praying that you will be able to simply rest in Jesus. Sabbath-rest has to be the answer in life's most overwhelming, complecated situations, or it isn't real. Jesus, our true Sabbath rest, is our Answer, even when the specific phsycial answers aren't yet clear. Jesus holds our hearts—and He asks us to trust Him and to surrender ourselves to Him at the deep levels we normally don't allow ourselves to go. Most of us hold our deepest feelings unexpressed, stuffed deep inside where we don't even identify them. But Jesus asks us to let Him help us become vulnerable to Him and to allow Him to heal our emotions. Figuring out what is "right" will not solve this yearning you feel to "know" because what you long for is not knowledge or "answers" but the resolving touch of Jesus being the Answer to your heart's deep needs. When you allow Jesus to enter the places where you feel out-of-control and emotional, it's amazing how many of your questions become clear. Jesus is asking you to allow Him to be your Destination, your Answer, your Comfort, your one true Love. He will give you His own ability, then, to discern, to know, and to love for Him. It's not a church or a religion, Jim, that you're really looking for! It's that deep and difficult and frightening surrender to a Person that will bring you that comfort that will provide your answers. I am praying for you, Jim. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 178 Registered: 5-2007 |
I guess I was a clueless Adventist. I never met an Adventist nor was ever taught, nor have ever read that SDA taught that abortion was permissible, desirable or no big deal. As far as I knew up till this past year after over 30 years in SDA , that abortion was absolutely wrong. At the most, I suspect that the abortion activity is being conducted at the institutional level without the approval of the church proper. I can agree that SDA is subject to flaws and error, but it appears to me that there is a lot of bashing going on. Villifying them thar bad SDA's. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 676 Registered: 4-2006  |
Colleen, I love that video as well. Lifting the Veil of Polygamy (online video): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7652620562849262422&q=Lifting+the+Veil+of+Polygamy&total=3&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2 Actually there are many good videos on the mormons, I especially like this one. Jesus Christ / Joseph Smith (online video): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4749149421363242834&q=Jesus+Christ+Joseph+Smith&total=57&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 Jesus you are wonderful! Martin | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 517 Registered: 5-2007 |
Timmy, you forgot that Atheists and Adventists also both believe that when you're dead, you're dead. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 117 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim02, Scroll down the previous threads to the one called "Abortion Policy." (It's not too far down.) The second person responding on that thread, Ric_b has an email address that you can click on. It goes right to the SDA church's policy on abortion. Dianne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6488 Registered: 12-2003 |
Here is the official Adventist policy on abortion on the SDA website: http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/guidelines/main_guide1.html Here is the letter of resignation from Teresa and Arthur Beem stating why they are leaving Adventism. Note their first reason: http://www.formeradventist.com/stories/teresaarthurbeem.html At the following three links, Richard Fredericks wrote a three-part article for Proclamation! on the subject of abortion. He discusses abortion within the Adventist church and proposes a Christian and ethical response to abortion. Richard Fredericks served on the General Conferences panel to discuss and formulate an abortion policy before he left the Adventist church in 1997 after being fired for preaching the gospel alone in his church in Maryland. Here is the first installment; begin reading on page 7: http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2003_JanFeb.pdf Here is part two; begin again on page 7: http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2003_MarApr.pdf Part 3, again on page 7: http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2003_MayJun.pdf Unfortunately, Jim, the fact is that the SDA church did not have an abortion policy until relatively recently, and, as you will see from that first link, it does not take the stance that abortion is categorically wrong. It is widespread in the church, although kept partially "under wraps". Colleen | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 66 Registered: 6-2007 |
I don't think that most former SDA become atheists. Rather, they just stop going to church. I don't consider that the same as an atheist. Any of us who were members of the SDA church know that there were dozens or hundreds of names (depending on the size of the church) that nobody even knew who they were or where they went. They just disappeared. I don't think they made the leap to an atheist. I think they became tired, disillusioned, picked up a Bible and read the truth and left the SDA church. We all know adventists who left and never join another church. They just can not attend a "sunday keeping church" so therefore they just stop going to church. This is far more common than someone becoming an atheist. Jim - speaking only for myself, I completely understand your feeling of nowhere to go. I have not been inside an adventist church for over 18 months. I regularly attend a methodist church but am not a member. I will not say I "love" this church, in fact we are looking for somewhere else to go. Nothing to do with the doctrine, just the whole worship experience. All I can tell you is to trust God. Thank him for leading you out of adventism and trust him to lead you to the right place. Laurie | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1244 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jim, I going to lay the sand paper aside, its not about a religion, its all about Jesus, Jim, thru thick and thin for 35 years Jesus has been at my side, even when I let him down miserably, even when I did things I am so ashamed of that I can’t tell it on here because I would be shamed to tell it, he knows what they are, he has been here, is still here just like he said he would be, he promised in his word he would never leave me nor forsake and after 35 years I know he will be here until the end and I will be with him just like he said when he sealed me with his holy spirit of promise. Jim, with tears I beg you to just let him keep you, never mind all the seeming confusion, let him take care of the frustration. If all I had to offer was some kind of religious system it wouldn’t be much, but what I have to offer is my truthful testimony of his saving and keeping grace, what we have to offer is to lift him up, he said that if he be lifted up he would draw all men unto him. I present Jesus, bless his Holy name this day. Jim I pray for his blessing on your life, I will ask my church to pray for you tomorrow night when I go. Listen to Colleen, she is a wise and studious Christian, a devout follower of Christ. Please, as well as many on this forum are devout followers of Christ, they know the ins and outs of this journey from cult to true Bible teaching and will guide you if you let them. The purpose of many writers on this forum is to help someone else who might be struggling, they lay aside their own time to do so, why? Because they are devoted to the Lord Jesus, love him dearly and praise him often. They share of themselves and prayer is going up continually for others. Jim, I am praying for a real awakening for you to the gentle loving mercies of our precious Lord Jesus, the true lamb of God, the true rest, and a true friend. I wish I could mention by name each one of you that write here, tell you how you have lifted me up and encouraged me, tell you how I am encouraged by your faithfulness to spend time here to try to help and advise others, tell you how I am so encouraged by each new person that writes in and let us know you are out there, a special heartfelt thank you to all you new ones on the forum, we need encouragement too, us who have been a long time with the Lord even. Each one of you are dear to me, even the ones who light of my red hot chile peppers and sometimes make me steam a little bit, I lay it all aside for the love of Christ and for you. Your Brother in Christ. River P.S. Sorry Jim, I left my shootin arn at home today. No John Wayne today  | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 177 Registered: 10-2005 |
You know Laurie your right I know for a fact that my husband will probably never walk into another church again,he knows EGW is a false prophet and that the SDA church is in error,but he's not convinced that the other churches arent in error either he just cant get his mind wrapped around the idea that you can belong to a church and have differnt views on scripture,that some believe in the rapture and some dont,some believe you go to heaven when you die an some dont,my church beleives that you can have difffernt views and it's ok,what they will not bend on is that God is the creator, Christ died for our sins,and the trinity.Dawn |
