| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 184 Registered: 5-2007 |
Matt 24:26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Acts9:3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." In the book of Matthew, Jesus warns about false appearances and so forth and the manner of His return. Then in Acts , there is the encounter between Jesus and Saul. This establshes some form of precedent. Was Jesus present, or was this merely a vision? Did Jesus contradict his preconditions by this encounter. Does this invalidate anything. I am not suggesting that Jesus has tied His own options in His ministry and Lordship over mankind. But I am wondering, how this apparent exception agrees with the terms of the warnings in acts. This example is one tangent that could be used to suggest an invalidation of the ministry of Paul. I am not saying that myself. So don,t take it that way. I simply want to know how to answer this potential conflict. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 560 Registered: 11-2005 |
Peter and others validated Paul's testimony as being from the Lord. I would feel comfortable with taking their word for it. (You were probably looking for a more detailed answer, weren't you. <grin> Sorry. I was just getting ready to go outside and work on a project with my son.) Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6522 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, first of all, Gilbert's reference to the apotle's validation is crucial. The formation of the church was a one time, non-repeatable event in history. Jesus gave the apostles the charge of overseeing this beginning. He told them that whatever they bound or loosed on earth would be bound or loosed in heaven. He specifically equipped them to recognize Him and His will. Further, Saul knew of Jesus. Even though he's not mentioned in the gospels, for him to be a Pharisee well-known for killing Christ's followers shortly after Pentecost, he had to have been fully aware of Jesus. After all, he held the coats while Stephen died. When Jesus appeared to Saul on the Damascus road, His message to Saul was one of conviction of sin and a call to repentance. False Christs do not convict people of their deep sin and call them to repnetance. Rather, false Christs appeal to the ego at some level, offering promises or hopes that build on a person's self-indulgence, self-control, self-righteousness, etc. Only the Lord Jesus convicts people of sin and brings them to repentance. Saul's reaction to the appearance of Jesus was humility and repentance. He was deeply convicted of his sin not only of murdering but of rejecting his own desired Messiah. So, from both the apostolic confirmation and from the effects of Saul's encounter with the Lord Jesus we can see, historically, that the appearance to Paul was not a hoax. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 963 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi Jim, The key to this is: The Holy Spirit. Jesus' warning is that "the Kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17) -- that is, by His Spirit He lives inside of you. That is why we do not need to go running off in order to meet Jesus somewhere. It's the promise of the New Covenant, "No longer shall anyone teach his neighbor saying, 'Know the Lord', for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest." God is certainly allowed to appear to people in visions. Paul's meeting with Jesus is significantly different from what Jesus warned about because Paul was not running off to meet Jesus in the fields, etc. In fact, Paul was not expecting to meet Jesus at all, but rather to persecute His followers. In context, Jesus' warnings are particularly about "His return". This holds special significance for us as the spiritual ancestors of a group of people who proclaimed, "Come out to meet Him" in 1843-44. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 186 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen wrote: "The formation of the church was a one time, non-repeatable event in history. Jesus gave the apostles the charge of overseeing this beginning. He told them that whatever they bound or loosed on earth would be bound or loosed in heaven. He specifically equipped them to recognize Him and His will. " I want to politely agree. But I partially disagree. Did not the Apostles have disagreements? I submit they were not in full knowledge of his will at all times. They had to discursivly work out it out. Point two you made: "whatever they bound or loosed on earth would be bound or loosed in" This gives me a strong suggestion that the Catholic Church has the only original authourity of continuity under these terms. Without listing the deviations of the Catholic church. How would you unlnk this suggestion? Colleen also wrote: "Rather, false Christs appeal to the ego at some level, offering promises or hopes that build on a person's self-indulgence, self-control, self-righteousness, etc. " I cannot argue with your statement, however, addressing my question: the Bible does not give indication that Jesus will conduct private "physical" meetings at all, nor will He return in ground based locations. The thing is , Jesus contacted Paul in some fashion and you are correct, Paul did not go looking for a meeting to locate Jesus by some rumor , message or word of mouth. Jesus made the warning and it certainly must hold specific application and definition. If we can explain it away by saying (in so many words) ""we can sort out false Christ's by their fruits."" To do so invalidates the content of the warning. Collen wrote: "Only the Lord Jesus convicts people of sin and brings them to repentance." I thought that was the Holy Spirit's function. Colleen: "So, from both the apostolic confirmation and from the effects of Saul's encounter with the Lord Jesus we can see, historically, that the appearance to Paul was not a hoax." I am not suggesting it was a hoax. I was aiming at validation keys to Paul's authenication. From what I gather. The apostle's voted him in and acknowledged his commission as validated. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 136 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim, the texts you quoted at the first, refer to Christ's second coming. Christ appearing to Paul on the Damascus road, wasn't His second coming. If I may say so, the Lord "appears" to each of us in a way. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to understand the Bible at all. There would be NO Christians - everyone would be in one cult or another. What I'm saying is that the Lord, usually through the Holy Spirit, leads us to the truth of the Bible - to a right understanding of His word. In my own life, it took the fasting and prayers of another person for two years first. Then the Lord told her to wait until I brought up the subject of Michael the archangel. She couldn't figure out how that would do it, but she trusted God and waited and waited... Finally I did bring the subject of Michael the archangel up and two texts, Daniel 10:13 and Jude 9 caused me to think, and it led to my discovering that the whole Adventist church was wrong. It wasn't easy learning the truth of what the Bible REALLY said, however. Satan doesn't let go his victims lightly. Something weird happened. Every so often there would be a thick fog over my understanding. The friend whom God used to lead me out of Adventism, and I would pray; then the fog would evaporate. I would understand clearly again. That happened several times. That "fog" had never happened at any previous time or at any time since. It was clearly supernatural. There is a real battle Jim - a real battle going on for every soul. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6554 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, Dianne is right; Jesus' warning is about the appearance of false Christs purporting to be Jesus coming back. Paul wasn't the least bit mystified by Jesus' appearance once Jesus told him who He was. Surpirsed, yes--but convicted. Further, Jesus followed up his appearance to Saul by sending Ananias three days later to pray for him and restore his sight. Ananias told Paul God had sent him to tell him how much he would suffer for Jesus' sake. Paul was set aside for his ministry, and he was converted by his meeting with the risen Christ. Ultimately, Paul's validation is his exalting of the Lod Jesus and his explanation of the gospel that has made it possible for two millennia of Christ-followers to understand how the new covenant works and to become active members of the body of Christ. Regarding the Catholic Church, Jesus' words to the apostles about their establishing things on heaven and on earth were not words to or about the Catholic or any other organization. They were made to the apostles who founded the church. The Catholic church didn't show up until the third century; the church was established at Pentecost. And yes, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin because He is the One who indwells us. But we can't separate Jesus from the Holy Spirit. For example, in Ephesians 14-16 Paul prays that God will strengthen them through the Spirit so Christ will dwell in their hearts by faith. When we are made alive in Christ, our lives are hidden with Christ in God (Col 3:3). When we are indwelt by the Spirit, Jesus lives in us, and we live in Him, and we're hidden in God. The Trinity is inseparable; where one is, the others are also. Dianne is also right about the spiritual battle and the supernatural attempts to derail our spiritual understanding. We have to know that our mninds and hearts will be assaulted, and we have to pre-decide to ask God to keep us faithful, to root us in truth and reality. He will guard our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 751 Registered: 6-2006  |
I keep reading the text and I don't see where Jesus actually appeared to Paul. There was a flash, and then Jesus' voice. I could be way off here, but I'm not seeing a "vision". Not only that, but Paul went blind from the experience. Just an observation. Don't know if it matters!  Leigh Anne | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 189 Registered: 5-2007 |
Leigh Anne. I agree. I think it was a vision event. Colleen, You made an excellent point about the combination of The Trinity. Thank You. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1009 Registered: 8-2004  |
When Jesus appeared to Saul (and Paul does testify that he has seen Him - 1 Cor. 9:1) it was for the specific, immediate purpose of calling him to conversion. There are other accounts of Jesus appearing here and there to comfort, reprove, convert. For Jesus to appear seems to me no contradiction of the Matthew passage. For 'Jesus' to appear and tell people to collect an audience for him however would be a contradiction. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 192 Registered: 5-2007 |
"If they say, He is........." It's false. If they say He "was" here or there, then it's plausible as long as it matches the other tests. EGW built a career on making similar "I was shown" statements. This gets back to authenticating close encounters of the third kind. I am not so much concerned about Saul's/Paul's conversion and authentication. I think it had authentication and authority well established in the contemporaries and down thorugh the centuries. It is more about safetys in the current day. I am not referring to doubting Thomas. I mean, I believe people better know the boundries and what is real and what is assumed. |
