SDAs a Cult? Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 6 » SDAs a Cult? « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
Archive through August 20, 2007Colleentinker20 8-20-07  9:17 pm
  Start New Thread        

Author Message
Dale
Registered user
Username: Dale

Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2007


Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for your positive comments on my last post. It is humbling to realize that so many of you have been helped by reading my books. Here are some cultic characteristics you may wish to use in your evaluation of Adventism.
1. Claim to extra-biblical revelation: “We have a special message from God.”
2. Exclusive salvation: “We alone are saved. All others are lost.”
3. Persecution complex: “The world is against us because we have the truth.”
4. Defective Christology: “Jesus died for our sins, but…”
5. Doctrinal ambiguity: “The truth doesn’t have to make sense.”
6. Presumptuous leadership: “I know what is best for you.”
7. Segmented interpretation of the Bible: “These verses are more important.”
8. Denunciation of other Christians: “All the churches are wrong but ours.”
9. Limited eschatology: “Jesus is coming only for us.”
10. Messianic complex: “We are God’s only hope to save the world.”
11. Denial of the triune [trinity] nature of God.
Thanks for your prayers for Adventism. Pray for Adventist pastors. Many know the errors of Adventism and the truth of the Gospel. Pray that they will have the courage to call error, error and truth, turth.
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos

Post Number: 981
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"...employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control."

I agree with what River said. With all "cults" that I know of (Hare Krishna, Aum Shinrikyo, etc.), this manipulation/control is the hallmark of them. I can't exactly put my finger on it in Adventism today, but it is definitely there. It is mos clearly visible in the writings of Ellen G. White.
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos

Post Number: 982
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dale, I wanted to thank you also for your book, "Sabbath in Christ". I've given the book to some non-Adventist friends here in Japan, and they are being blessed by the knowledge of the Sabbath-rest in Jesus and the New Covenant. One of the greatest benefits for them is the study method from the book -- it shows what is said in a passage/text, and what is not said. It is perhaps the best example I know of to demonstrate the process of interpreting and not reading-into a text or passage. Thanks again & blessings to you & your family in Jesus!
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane

Post Number: 138
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 9:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As Dale wrote in the opening of this thread, there is no definitive definition of a Christian Cult that is universally agreed upon. However, at the very least, I think we can all agree that SDA theology incorporates extreme heresy into the doctrinal structure. And I think that is what Paul was talking about in Galatians and other places. Whether or not we give a "cult" label to SDA is far less important than recognizing that many of their doctrines are heresy and therefore an abomination.
Dane
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 4171
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dane, I do agree with your last sentence "Whether or not we give a "cult" label to SDA is far less important than recognizing that many of their doctrines are heresy and therefore an abomination."
God is so awesome.
Diana
Dale
Registered user
Username: Dale

Post Number: 14
Registered: 4-2007


Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The other day I was thinking of SDA history. Did God raise up this church? If not, what or who did? Consider The Foundations of the True Church
--Christ is coming in 1843
--Christ is coming in 1844
--Christ changed places in heaven on October 22, 1844
--Satan answers the prayers of those who don't know Christ moved.
--The door of salvation is closed for all but us.
--God has rejected the wicked world who did not accept our understating.
--We are now being judged by our obedience to the 10 Commandments
--Christ is a created being
--The trinity is dangerous Papal heresy
--The Sabbath is the seal of God
--Sandy keepers will receive the mark of the beast
--We don't have a spirit, only breath
--We are the true "remnant church of Bible prophecy"
--Ellen White is a "continuing and authoritative source of truth."
--Those who eat meat will not be translated (ruptured)
--It is a sin to eat between meals
--We have a special message for the world
--Not one plank in our foundation is to be moved
--We have always been the true church
--We are now the true church
--The Adventist "ship" will go through to the kingdom.
--Better jump on now and "come into the truth"!
Randyg
Registered user
Username: Randyg

Post Number: 437
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dale,

I especially appreciated your kind and gentle manner in the Cultic Doctrine book. You were very clear, and anybody reading that book should be able to just look at Ellen Whites convoluted understandings and pronouncements as you so carefully documented.

The whole idea of progressive revelation has been an attempt to try and dismiss many of her early and foolish writings.

I appreciated the direct comparisons of what she said, and then the comparison with what Scripture says.

I have given several copies of that book away, as I have had several questioning Adventist brethren in discussion, especially during Clifford Goldstein's 1844 SS lessons last fall. My lending library has been tapped by a number of local SDA Pastors. I continue to pray for them as many are struggling with their consciences right now.

I will be ordering more as the lending library has run out. Seems none of them have been returned but are being pasted on to others.

Thank-you for your courage and the kindness with which you write.

I have agreed with your above posts, as these have been my conclusions as well.

I feel we don't have to call anybody names or condemn anyone. All we can do is share what we have learned, and leave the rest to the work of the Holy Spirit to convict.

I know that those in the higher levels of the SDA Church Administration know and understand the problems and concerns. I have corresponded personally with several of them as many are personal friends. I still consider them brothers and sisters, and eagarly await to see the miracles in their lives as they deal with the beckoning of the Holy Spirit.

Nobody likes to think of themselves as being part of a cult. Especially when that is all they have known. I think we are on the cusp of a spiritual reawakening of those Adventists that consider themselves to be in serious Biblical students. Many will stay in Adventism, but I have no doubt they will come to understand and appreciate the full and true meaning of the Gospel and Justification by Faith.

Thanks again for your ministry. You have given many Adventists and former Adventists much to consider and think about. If it gets people to study God's word and understand the security of our salvation, even if they remain in the Adventist church, their understanding will be broadened and they will be more secure in their Christian walk.

This is my prayer,

Randy
Insearchof
Registered user
Username: Insearchof

Post Number: 153
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I, too, have benifited by the book 'Cultic Doctrine' as has my wife and a few select friends that had left the SDA church as well. I know that one couple that we gave the book to (as well as the video 'Spirit behind the Church') joined the Baptist church that they had been attending.

I have a question regarding the list of things that Dale lists above, specifically this one:

--The trinity is dangerous Papal heresy

I would never have believed that it could be possible, but this seems to be one thing that is getting renewed interest with some of the more 'Historic' Adventists out there. I know that some Historic Adventists take seriously EGW's statement that they need to hold up those truths that were held by Adventist pioneers in the first 50 years of the movement.

I also seem to recall that George Knight thinks that the Arian heresy of Jesus as a created being seems to be on the upswing within some Historic Adventist circles. I also recall that he found it troubling.

To those that might be closer to what is going on in Adventist circles, do you find this to be true?

I thought that comments from pulpits like 'We need to move on past salvation...' and 'Our people need to hear our distinctive message. They can hear grace preached in any Evangelical church' were bad enough without adding Arianism into the mix.

ISO
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 6655
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good question, ISO. In his preface to the recently reprinted Questions on Doctrine published by the Andrews Univeristy Press as part of their heritage series (note it was not republished by the official church presses), Knight states that there is a growing return to non-Trinitarianism.

One of the things that so upsets me about The Clear Word is the way Blanco edited out many references to Jesus' divinity. For exmaples, check an article by Verle Streifling here: http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw68.htm

Without doubt, there is a resurgence of interest in Arianism within the church.

Colleen
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry

Post Number: 127
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 8:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does it seem like the sda church had to "shape up" with Walter Martin focusing on them, when he did? (using deception on him)

And now that they have fooled mainstream Chrisianity for the most part, they can slide back into mainstream ellen-ism?

Does it seem like this is the sneakiest wolf in the pack?

That was a good article, Colleen.
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris

Post Number: 163
Registered: 5-2007


Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I researched and wrote the core portion of the article which is posted on the LAM website, there were no personal computers and no internet. I had very few resources (other than the Bible) to turn to and knew no other Former Adventist to compare notes with. Walter Martin was one of the few sources who was even somewhat critical of the SDA church and their doctrines. When I came to the topic of the Investigative Judgment in his book, I could see he had been far to lenient in his analyses. It was the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit that revealed to me, from scripture, that the Scapegoat was the second part of a single sacrifice and both goats represented Jesus Christ. At that point, I realized that Ellen White was speaking heresy, was a false prophet and that her teachings could only mean that the SDA church is a cult.

It is such a blessing to be in daily contact with others who have been where I was and who understand what each of us has been through, as we break away from the SDA demonically inspired mindset. The resources now available are so overwhelming, it brings me to tears of joy.

As Jess Dixon said in the latest issue of Proclamation, our one and only message should now be the gospel of Jesus Christ. Putting all else behind, there is only our Savior.

Phil Harris
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1233
Registered: 4-2000


Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 12:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since Seventh-day Adventists believe in the heresy of annihilationism, it should not surprise us that they further believe that Satan, the fallen angel, has an actual physical body of flesh like we humans do. However, the problem is not solved because after Satan joins "the beast and the false prophet" in "the lake of fire," the Apostle John declares, "and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10 NASB). Obviously, one must be alive to be tormented.

Jesus said that our "spirit" or "soul" cannot be literally killed (see Matthew 10:28). Importantly, the word "destroy" (meaning "ruin") in this passage is not the same Koine Greek word form as "kill." Moreover, this passage very clearly teaches the dualistic nature of man; namely, body and soul. The Bible nowhere teaches the resurrection of the soul--only the resurrection of the body. Interestingly, even though our Adventist friends believe that the body and soul are one complete, inseparable unit, they NEVER ever talk about the resurrection of the soul.

To add additional confusion to the subject, they also believe the human spirit is merely one's breath. Thus, according to their understanding, something actually does return from heaven (i.e., their spirit, life principle, or spark of life) to reunite with the body to make a complete whole again in the resurrection. Therefore, in a strange way, they also believe that the body without the soul is dead. Matthew Henry's Commentary adds, "The soul is killed when separated from God and his love...Hell is the destruction of both body and soul in hell...The ruin of the whole man; if the soul is lost, the body is lost too. They sinned together; the body was the soul's tempter to sin, and its tool in sin, and they must eternally suffer together."

quote:

I was shown Satan as he was, a happy, exalted angel. Then I was shown him as he now is. He still bears a kingly form. His features are still noble, for he is an angel fallen. But the expression of his countenance is full of anxiety, care, unhappiness, malice, hate, mischief, deceit, and every evil. That brow which was once so noble, I particularly noticed. His forehead commenced from his eyes to recede backward. I saw that he had demeaned himself so long, that every good quality was debased, and every evil trait was developed. His eyes were cunning, sly, and showed great penetration. His frame was large, but the flesh hung loosely about his hands and face. As I beheld him, his chin was resting upon his left hand. He appeared to be in deep thought. A smile was upon his countenance, which made me tremble, it was so full of evil, and Satanic slyness. [Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, p. 27]




Thanks Colleen for providing the link to the EGW quote above.

Dennis Fischer
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 643
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, Dennis! I had never noticed that. What do Seventh-day Adventists do with that verse?

quote:

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28


BTW, Did you say that you were in charge of the Literature Evangelists for the Carolina Conference back in the early 70's?

Gilbert Jorgensen
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1616
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gilbert, the SDA I knew could word-smith that scripture to tell me what it did NOT say...which was that the soul is immortal. So, God can kill souls and they will be burned up. Then he would go bouncing to some other scripture to support his position that God alone is immortal, which means only saved people are given immortality. It gets confusing to me to follow the rabbit trail connecting phrases here and there in all those different spots. But he's just one. I don't know how universal it is.
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1238
Registered: 4-2000


Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gilbert,

Yes, I served as Associate Publishing Director of the Carolina Conference. I had the distinction of being the youngest publishing department leader they ever had in the history of the Southern Union Conference. In the early 1970s, I also submitted an application to the General Conference Secretariat for being a publishing leader overseas. However, I never followed up on it nor pursued it later. The General Conference Publishing Department encouraged my being on their eligible list in the event of an opening overseas. My wife's uncle, the late Erwin E. Cossentine, was the GC Education Director for nearly 20 years. So, the idea of overseas mission service was a family tradition.

My wife Sylvia lived with her SDA missionary parents in Baghdad, Iraq for several years as a young girl. Her father was the director of foods at the SDA-operated Dar Es Salaam Hospital in Baghdad, Iraq under King Faisal's reign. Her mother served as the director of nurses. The Iraqi people seemed to really like their youthful, 23-year-old King Faisal II. Unfortunately, some revolutionaries, under the leadership of Iraqi Army Brigidier General Qassim, ended the Iraqi monarchy by killing King Faisal II and his entire household in a 1958 coup d'etat. King Faisal II of Iraq and King Hussein of Jordan were cousins--both were British educated.

Dennis Fischer
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 653
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, I suspect that my father, Roy Jorgensen Jr. probably reported to you since he was a Literature Evangelist in western North Carolina in the early 70's.

Mildred Burgren, a good friend of my parents, was a missionary in Baghdad until King Faisal's assassination in the 50's.

Gilbert Jorgensen
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 654
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, I have been fascinated by the verse you mentioned -- Matthew 10:28.

quote:

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28


It seems to say that there are two parts -- body and soul, and that while God can kill both, man can only kill the body.

Of course Seventh-day Adventists would have a lot of heartburn with that conclusion. I looked in the SDA Bible Commentary for Matthew, and it assured me that this verse in no way suggested that anything lived on after the body died.

The Clear Word Bible took it even further ...

quote:

Don't be afraid that you might be killed. They can kill your body but not your spirit or loyalty to me. Now if there is something to be concerned about, it's that you don't loose your faith in God.


The CWB doesn't even remotely resemble what the Bible says in any way, shape or form! Seventh-day Adventism loves to point the finger at the Roman Catholic Church and claim that it "changed" the Bible. What the RCC has done is NOTHING in comparison with the wholesale rewriting that Seventh-day Adventism has done with the Clear Word Bible that it continues to promote and sell.

Since when did "soul" equate to "loyalty"?

Gilbert Jorgensen
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1240
Registered: 4-2000


Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 12:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gilbert,

With their low view of Scripture (i.e., no inerrancy, no verbal inspiration, etc.), Adventists unashamedly take it upon themselves to alter and/or rewrite it bigtime over and over again. After all, they claim to have an "infallible interpreter" and a "favorite Bible commentator" in the person of Ellen White. Ellen White is such a great blessing to Adventists in the same way that Joseph Smith is such a great blessing to Mormons. Since the Bible is God's voice speaking to us and the Holy Spirit indwells our spirit, what could we possibly need in addition?

Certainly, with these generous blessings under the New Covenant, we no longer need a prophet to dispense truth to us nor a mediator to stand between us and God. In Old Testament times, the people did not have access to the Scriptures like we do. At best, there were very limited copies of scrolls available. They were delighted to hear it publicly read once a week in their synagogues. The early Israelites in the desert were most likely illiterate due to being former slaves in Egypt. Therefore, prophets were very essential and indispensable to them.

Dennis Fischer

PS: I never had the privilege of meeting your father in western North Carolina. My responsiblities were primarily focused in eastern North Carolina.

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration