| Author | Message | ||
| Richardtinker Board Administrator Username: Richardtinker Post Number: 89 Registered: 4-1999  |
Dale Ratzlaff accidently started a thread with this subject in the "Members Only" area of the forum. He wanted it where anyone could read it, so I have moved it here. If you have already commented on this post and want your comment to be public, please post it again here. Thanks! Richard | ||
| Dale
Registered user Username: Dale Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2007  |
I understand that there has been some controversy over my understanding of the Adventist church relative to calling it a cult. As most of you know I have a book entitled, The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists. In this I list some 15 characteristics of a cult. The early Adventist church meets nearly all of these and the present day Adventist church meets most of them. I know of no definitive definition of a cult or no present-day authoritative guideline on how many of the 15 marks of a cult must be met before an organization is a cult. Another reason I have previously not called the SDA church a cult is that to do so might cut off their ears to further communication. However, every attempt to move them toward an Evangelical understanding seems to only entrench the administrative leaders into solidifying their doctrinal position. Some seem to pretend that the old errors of Adventism no longer exist and put them out of sight and mind. Some administrators I have communicated with tell me that in some conferences the pastors do not have to teach the old SDA errors. Specifically mentioned were: The Sabbath as the seal of God, Sunday as the mark of the beast; the 1844 investigative judgment as taught by Ellen White; the Seventh-day Adventist church as the remnant church of Bible prophecy; and the idea that the writings of Ellen White are a source of truth. However, when asked if they would publicly renounce these errors there was a resounding, “No.” And this has been the pattern of Adventists throughout their history. They are afraid to “come clean” for fear of creating a crisis in their large membership. The same excuse was used in the 1919 Bible conference. I am preparing study guides for our Phoenix FAF on the Epistle to the Galatians. Reading this book through a number of times, listening to the tapes from Clay Peck’s Galatians series, reading commentaries and doing my own study of this powerful book has lead me to reconsider my definitions of a cult. According to the Apostle Paul ANY compromise with the simple new covenant Gospel is to be not only confronted but condemned in the strongest terms. “I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.” Gal. 1:6–9. My study of Galatians leads me to the conclusion that the false teachers were enforcing the old covenant regulations of the law. Specifically circumcision, food laws and holy days. It is clear from a thorough study that the issue was not circumcision per say; rather, circumcision as the entrance sign into the old covenant and was an indicator that one was under the law. As Paul said, “I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.” Gal. 5:3. The teachings of historic Adventism parallel those of the false teachers of Galatia in a marked way. In Historic Adventism there is a lack of clarity regarding the gospel—if not a complete absence of the true gospel. There is also much evidence that the law focus of Adventism was, and is, very similar to that promoted by the false teachers in Galatia. For more on this, see my article in Proclamation! May/June 2003 entitled, “Do Adventists Preach Another Gospel?” Therefore, in consideration of the forgoing, I am now ready to call TODAY’S Adventist church a cult UNLESS it PUBLICLY RENOUNCES the early errors upon which it was built. It cannot claim to be the only true, remnant church of Bible prophecy throughout its whole history while at the same time changing its doctrines, if indeed, it has changed its teachings as some claim. If you have not watched the DVD, “Called to be Free”, describing the 180 degree turn around of the Worldwide Church of God you must do so. The parallels with Adventism are striking. There is a link on my website, www.LifeAssuranceMinistries.com to a free streaming video of this presentation. Click on “Ministry News”. I hope and pray that someday a group of Adventist administrators and theologians will stand up as did the leaders of the WWCOG and publicly state that Adventism was founded in error and has continued to harbor error throughout its history. I pray that they will jettison the writings of Ellen White. Rather than her writings being a “source of truth” they have proved to be a source of confusion and bondage. The only way for Adventism to make this change is to once and for all state that their ONLY source of truth is the Bible. Will you join me in prayer that God would do this? It sounds impossible. Yes, but as Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2007 |
Dale, I am reading a book titles Shepherd's Notes on Galatians by Holman Reference and it is really helping me to a deeper understanding of Paul's teachings. Have you read any of these books? Galatians was the book that put the final straw in my leaving along with your books and the other books you have. I want to say thank-you for all the work you and others are doing in help current SDA's and those opting out. Gail | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1291 Registered: 9-2006  |
Below is my understanding of what symptoms a cult would display. "A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgement, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community." Adventism displays these symptoms. Many people in the evangelical church know nothing of this. The sooner we decide to face the truth the better. Its not only a cult, but blinds people to the Gospel. It has a deceiving spirit behind it. It is a cult. River | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 605 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dale, I agree completely. The latest published material such as "Adventist World" show that they are only retrenching deeper into their cultic doctrine. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1219 Registered: 4-2000  |
Dale, Just last week a select group of SDA apologists met with Evangelical scholars on the campus of Andrews University (the second and final meeting). The first meeting took place in the Czech Republic many months ago. The Adventist news report was glowing with many Evangelical-sounding words, doctrines, and even the self-appointed label of being "mainline" Protestants. The report indicated that official Adventism wanted to present its beliefs directly to the Evangelical community without the filter of "questionable" sources. The subtle wording in the report was clearly an attack against former Adventists. Repeating it twice in Galatians 1:8-9, the Apostle Paul clearly condemned those who taught a different gospel than he did. Truly, God takes the perversion of the Gospel very seriously. I applaud your forthright announcement of contemporary Adventism being nothing less than a cult. It is good to have you on the FAF forum. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on August 17, 2007) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 980 Registered: 10-2002  |
Amen, Dale. Thanks for sharing this. Dennis, that is shocking but typical. *sigh* River, that is a very good definition of a cult! | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-2004 |
Dale, thanks for pointing out the video link Called to be Free. The description of their experience is very similar to mine. I have sat in Adventist Sabbath Schools and listened to the teacher make fun of the Baptists for their understanding of grace. I pray that SDA leaders will understand the gospel of grace | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 686 Registered: 4-2006  |
I join in on the prayer, oh wonderful and almighty God, I pray for the SDA people I pray that you will raise up leaders there who loves your Good News and that know you, I pray that you will use them to win many of the lost people in SDA and turn SDA from a cult to Christianity, it seems impossible to us, but to you nothing is impossible, praised be you for eternity, in the name of Jesus Christ I pray, amen. Martin | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 610 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dennis, the intriguing thing is that any "evangelical behavior" by the Seventh-day Adventist denomination is immediately "broadcast down the line" by the "Historic faithful" who watch for this with the sensitivity of a "miner's canary". Anything that remotely smacks of "evangelical behavior" puts them into "overdrive" as they think they see this as confirming signs that they, and their message, are still valid. That kind of reactive behavior will only accelerate the ultimate fragmentation of Adventism. Seventh-day Adventism is in a "catch-22" situatation. Endorse Ellen White (which they are doing) and continue to act like a cult -- which they are, or re-invent Ellen White and alienate the Historic Adventist mainstream. They are like a car with a "busted tie rod" -- both front wheels steering in different directions! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2007 |
Dale, thank you for sharing this post. I praise God for you, your studies have been a great help to me and helping me come out of the darkness. My Brother-in-Law who is an Elder SDA used to tell me about you and how you were a heretic and how Satan is using you to pull people from the truth. Well I decided I was going to see for myself what it was you were saying. Now keep in mind I already had my doubts about EGW and SDA doctrine, I just hadn't made a decision yet as to what I wanted to believe. Well what you were saying was agreeing with much of what I felt. Your studies have truly helped me open my eyes much wider and really see the truth. researching you has also led me to this forum, and what a great forum it is. Praise God! Thanks and Praise to God for His Truth, and Lovingkindness and Mercy. Amen! | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 111 Registered: 4-2007 |
Re "Called to be Free" video. Just change a few names and some cultic beliefs and it would be the SDA Church It brought tears to my eyes to witness the integrity of the WCG leadership and the joy of those who rejected the cultic teaching and embraced biblical truth - it also caused me to weep over the lack of integrity of the SDA leadership. As I watched all I could think was 'if only...' JONVIL | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6586 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jonvil, I had similar reactions to that video. It really does feel like the story of many of us who have found Jesus after life in a cult. It's so interesting; we have some former Jehovah's Witness friends whose story also feels like "our story". They have often told us that they love talking to us because we "get it" where most of their Christian friends don't resonate to the release from bondage and darkness. Colleen | ||
| Luzisbornagain Registered user Username: Luzisbornagain Post Number: 92 Registered: 7-2007 |
It brought tears to my eyes as well. I couldn't stop crying. One day adventism may be transformed and become a testimony of Jesus Christ and His wonderful True Gospel. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 149 Registered: 7-2007 |
Actually, River; I agree with you that the SDA church is a cult, but I don't agree with all of the definitions that you put; like their "employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control." They DO elevate Ellen White's writings to a position equal to that of the Bible. (At least when I was an Adventist, I believed her to be as much inspired as the Bible. That's why, when I found out that she contradicted the Bible, I quit believing in her writings. When I did that, I was able to see the Bible for what it said, instead of viewing scripture through EGW "glasses" - with the Lord's help.) Also since they teach that the SDA church is the "one true last days church," a person would feel they were "lost" if they left it; unless, of course, they learned that the Bible and the SDA church do not agree. Looking back, I'm astonished to realize how much the church disagrees with the Bible. As the apostle Paul put it, it really is a "different gospel!" I've been told that the defininition of a cult (or a least one defininition) is a religion that changes the nature or work of Jesus. The SDA church doesn't change His nature - maybe way in the past they did, but not now; but they certainly DO change His work. For them, He's an investigative Judge, going over all of their records. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 580 Registered: 5-2007 |
I think the SDA church is a Heterodox Christian sect with some "aberrant" doctrines. I do not think it is an out and out "cult" but definetly has "cultic" tendencies and "cultic" thinking. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6596 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dianne, the church actually DOES change Jesus' nature as well as His work. They say He had no advantage we do not have, and they maintain that humans do not have "spirits" which can know God, which are born dead and made alive by the new birth. They say humans have only "body + breath", and when we die, the "breath" goes back to God. They likewise insist that Jesus shared our human nature, that as a human, while He was "God", he functioned as a human exactly as we did. They do not allow for the fact that Jesus had a literal spirit that was alive from the moment of His conception by the Holy Spirit. He was the only human born who did not have to be "born again". Adventists say that Jesus "accessed" the power of the Holy Spirit—outside Himself—just as we can, and thereby kept the law. They say that just as He kept the law, so we, by the power of the Holy Spirit, can also "keep" the law if we persist. They allow that because He was "sinless" (which they never define since the issue of a dead vs. living spirit is not on their "radard screen") that His ability to obey was heightened; we require years to accomplish perfection while He was born able to be perfect. Nevertheless, theoretically we CAN be perfect as He was. This is not just bad theology—this belief is actually changing the nature of Jesus. They deny He had a living, literal spirit as a human. Further, this belief in "body + breath = living soul" keeps Adventists from understanding the new birth. They deny that there is a literal "something" that comes alive and is eternally connected with God, never to die. One more thing; as I was transitioning out of Adventism, I did not believe, either, that the church employed "unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control." The farther I got from the church, however, the more I saw that what I thought was "normal" was actually manipulation. The teaching that if we left Adventism we would walk away from the chance of salvation was manipulative. The belief that Satan might be answering the prayers of those who questioned or left the church was manipulative. The teaching that those who leave Adventism are fulfilling Ellen's prophecies, thus confirming her as a true prophetess is manipulative and unethically persuasive. The fact that they teach that they base all their beliefs on the Bible alone, listing supportive texts, stating that their beliefs stand without EGW, is persuasive and manipulative; when one discovers that the Bible says something different, they are pulled back toward Adventist interpretation by the declarations of "truth" and a flurry of out-of-context texts. The pulling away, the anger, the fear, the quiet "shunning" of friends and family is manipulative and persuasive and controlling by guilt. Even though Adventism STATES is does not shun, it teaches Bible alone, it teaches the true Trinity—their statements are themselves hiding the reality. They do not teach the true orthodox Trinity; they do not teach the true Biblical Jesus who was completely God with all His divine attributes even during His incarnation; they do say error is truth and truth is error; they do control by means of fear and threat of damnation if one questions the role of Ellen and her teachings. I so understand your astonishment to discover the church disagrees with the Bible is such major ways. That deep disagreement only becomes more significant the farther away you move from the church. They truly do brainwash their people to the place where they believe that they are "normal" Christians—and all the while, if a person truly finds Jesus within Adventism through his own biblical study and prayer and begins to question the doctrines and move away from the church, the emotional pressure and threats of losing salvation and separating from God are overpowering. This fear IS manipulative--and it IS the essence of Adventism when confronted with the true gospel and the true Jesus of the Bible. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2047 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hi Dianne, You wrote: "The SDA church doesn't change His nature - maybe way in the past they did, but not now; but they certainly DO change His work." Actually, they do change His nature--still to this day. Have you read the article "Discovering the Adventist Jesus" in the May/June 2007 issue of Proclamation! magazine? If not, you can find it on page 10 at the following link: http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2007_MayJun.pdf Jeremy | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 157 Registered: 7-2000 |
"A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family,....) River, as usual, you pegged Adventism correctly. I do appreciate your understanding of its nature. Thanks for giving that definition of cult. I can tell you first hand that Adventists do or have employed unethical, manipulative techniques especially in their evangelistic campaigns. Has anyone on the forum heard the name Kembleton S. Wiggins? Maybe you have not. He was at one time, during the 70s, a notable and the leading Evangelist in the Caribbean Union Conference. During the 80s, after attaining his doctorate at Andrews University, he became a professor in the Theology department at the College in Trinidad. He was a master at employing these unethical, manipulative techniques of persuasion and control. He not only wrote a book but boasted openly during class sessions when he instructed the theology students how to master the art in their evangelism campaigns. He painstakingly taught students how to "innoculate" their SDA converts so they will be grounded and remain Adventists for life. While he held views and practiced a liberal and sometimes questionable lifestyle, he clearly encouraged homage and respect for Ellen G. White. He was extremely successful bamboozling people in the classroom and during his evangelistic meetings. The Adventists in the Caribbean were gleeful about his successes and the rapid increase in SDA membership. However, in the communities, there were countless broken homes and families. Children were pitted against parents, spouses separated from one another and people left christian churches. All of them to become members of the SDA church by baptism. The Adventists were prideful and enjoyed the turmoil. They boasted it was proof positive Adventism is the Remnant people of God, with whom Satan was angry and was making war. Therefore, people joining the church should be proud being a part of God's commandment keeping church. The conferences celebrated and rewarded pastors for being centenians (baptising 100 or more people)allowing them to employ whatever manipulative technique it took to meet the goal. I still remember the frightful looks on people's faces at a meeting, when Pastor Wiggins told the crowd about a woman who attended his meetings but refused to be baptised and committed the unpardonable sin, because she rejected the Holy Spirit by not joining the church. Obviously, people were scared to death and signed up for baptism that night. Successful pastors were given trips to a resort somewhere in Florida called Camp Qualacua (?sp?) To a hungry man even what is bitter is sweet. I wanted to follow Jesus all the way, and if it were the Adventist way, I had no reason to disobey. I was one of those "manipulated" people whom though deceived, became a willing participant. I became a Seventh day Adventist and because I believed their theology to be truth, I taught others and perhaps unknowingly used some of these techniques on a lower scale. It was years before I understood I was deceived to the core, and was living unconsciously in (self) imposed isolation from friends and family. On another thread, Colleen, you gave an analogy of the abused taking responsibility for his actions. Because, I am set free, it felt natural to give my shame and my sin to Jesus and accept His forgiveness. I have taken responsibility for my sin of participating in deceiving people through Adventism. In the mid 90s, our family hosted Foreign Exchange, highschool students from Europe. They'd live with us for 10- 12 months intervals. Obviously, we proudly espoused our SDA teachings and expected compliance in our many religious activities. God is so faithful. When He picked us up and turned us around and planted our feet on solid ground-the gospel of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ; we didn't just shout, "Hallelujah, thank you, Jesus". He gave us grace and humility to repent and confess to all the students about misleading them. On visits back here with us, we used the opportunity to take them with us to church on Sunday instead of Saturday. Their expressions of love and forgiveness toward us were worth the humbling, confessing and repenting to God and them. Even though our children were 14 and 9, when we left SDA, we sat them down and prayed over them too. If we deny or don't honestly identify and admit the true nature of the SDA deception,,,as with any deception for that matter, we are likely to remain confused or confuse people we love and care about. Thank you guys for listening. It was not easy to write this post. Remembering is still painful. Erma (Message edited by admin on August 20, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6602 Registered: 12-2003 |
Erma, thank you for sharing this background and personal experience. I can tell from reading it that these experiences are close to your heart and difficult to remember. What you have said is completely the truth about Adventism. Praise God for setting you free! His faithfulness to break through our well-intentioned but wrong commitment to deception that we can't identify is breath-taking. He is faithful. Colleen |
