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Jorgfe
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Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I heard a story a while back about an incident where someone evidently purchased a sizable bag of charcoal at an independent SDA campmeeting, and packed it into their suitcase for a trans-oceanic airline flight. Evidently the changes in pressure (or something) caused the seal on the bulk bag of powdered charcoal to rupture. The charcoal powder found its way around the baggage compartment. Upon landing the airline personnel were greeted with a baggage compartment coated with a fine dust of charcoal. Evidently a numbe of passenger's suitcases had also been beneficiaries as well.

Gilbert Jorgensen
Jorgfe
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Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Randy, here is a story for you. It's on page 13.
http://www.whiteestate.org/vez/vezforkids.pdf

Gilbert Jorgensen
Susans
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Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Charcoal has a number of medicinal uses even now. It's the treatment of gastric lavage for poisoning or overdoses in the ER.

Gilbert, I had no idea that sort of e-zine existed! So much for the church not promoting EGW heavily!

Susan
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fascinating quotes, Gilbert!

I am particularly appalled—today, at least!—by her statements about the church: "Said the angel, Nothing less than the whole armor of righteousness can overcome, and retain the victory over the powers of darkness. Satan has taken full possession of the churches as a body. "

This is a direct contradiction of what Jesus said. Here's Ellen, who showed up in the 1840's among a small group of entrepreneurs who establish a new church in which they ignored all the heritage of the previous 1800 years. They dismissed the orthodox statements and creeds that expressed the nature of Christ, the Trinity, salvation, the work of Jesus, etc., and created their own new doctrines which denied the deity of Jesus and created a system of requirements based on the Mosaic covenant.

They claimed that the church had apostatized, and God raised them up to bring truth to the world. Then, Ellen further claims, that all other churches had been filled with Satan.

Yet Jesus said that He was establishing His church, and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. If the true church was dead or dormant from the time of Luther to the time of Ellen, then Jesus' promise failed. If the church was the domain of Satan until the Whites appeared, there were 350 or more years of hopelessness during which the gates of hell prevailed against the church.

Overwhelming, actually--yet I'm understanding more and more why my world view was so "off", and why it takes so long to begin to see reality Biblically. We really were taught that black was white—so to speak!

Colleen
Jorgfe
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Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, you are so right. Early Writings is, to me, one of the most bizarre books written. Spiritual Gifts also has a number of very unusual statements. It is incomprehensible how the Seventh-day Adventist Church can consider Ellen White to be "a continuing and authoritative source of truth."

Her writings also presents a very complimentary view of her role in everything. Her involvement and account of the Israel Dammon incident is so contradictory to the well-documented newspaper accounts. And yet, the White Estate tries to just "shove it under the rug" and put a positive spin on it. Most Adventists would be shocked and disgusted to learn about this aspect of James White's and Ellen Harmon's life.

For the rest of the story see:
http://www.ellenwhite.org/israel.htm

From the PISCATAQUIS FARMER (Vol. 3 Dover Maine, Friday Morning, March 7, 1845 No. 31)newspaper account of the Israel Dammon Trial. This is just the beginning. The full testimony can be read at http://www.ellenwhite.org/israel_news.htm

quote:


PISCATAQUIS FARMER
Devoted to politics, agriculture, literature, morals, temperance, news

Vol. 3 Dover Maine, Friday Morning, March 7, 1845 No. 31

TRIAL OF ELDER I. DAMMON REPORTED FOR THE PISCATAQUIS FARMER

In offering the public the following report I feel it due to them as well as myself, to make a few remarks. When I volunteered to do it, I had no doubt but that the examination would have been gone through with in the course of a few hours. Judge then, what must be my surprise on finding the Court House filled to over flowing, and having it occupy such a length of time. To the witnesses I will say, I have abridged your testimony as much as possible, and have omitted much of the most unimportant part, in order to shorten the work, but have endeavored in no case to misrepresent you, and if you find an error, I beg you to impute it to my head, instead of heart. --To the reader I will remark, that much of the testimony was drawn out by question, and I have omitted the questions in all cases where it could b dispensed with and shorten the work. To all, I offer it as an imperfect and impartial report. In consequence of my total inexperience, being but a laboring man, I should shrink from publishing it, but from the urgent solicitation of others. Thanking the Court for the favor of a seat, by them, and the Court and Counsel for the use of their minutes, I sign myself this once THE REPORTER.

N.B. I have preserved the language of the witnesses as much as possible.

Monday, Feb. 17, 1845

STATE OF MAINE, vs. ISRAEL DAMMON.

Prisoner arraigned before Moses Swett, Esq. of Foxcroft, associated by Seth Lee, Esq. of Atkinson, on the following complaint, to wit. To Charles P. Chandler, Esq. one of the Justices of the Peace within and for the County of Piscataquis. "HARTFORD J. ROWE, of Dover, in the Co. of Piscataquis, Yeoman, upon his oath complains, the Israel Dammon, Commorant of Atkinson, in said County, Idler, is, and for several days last past, has been a vagabond and idle person, going about in the town of Atkinson, aforesaid, in the county aforesaid, from place to place, begging: --that he the said Israel Dammon is a common railer or brawler, neglecting his calling, or employment, misspending his earnings, and does not provide for the support of himself family, & against the peace of the State of Maine, and contrary to form of Statute in such cases made and provided. He therefore prays that the said I. Dammon, may be apprehended and held to answer to said complaint and dealt with relative to the same as law and justice may require."

Plead Not Guilty

Court adjourned to one o'clock, P.M.

Opened agreeably to adjournment.

C.P. Chandler, H.G.O. Morison, for State. J.S. Holmes, for Respondent.

Opened by Chandler. Cited chap. 178, sec. 9, Revised Statutes.

Adjourned to Court House.


EBENEZER BLETHEN, sworn. Have been in the house three times, saw nothing out of the way in Elder Dammon. Have seen others. Objected to by Holmes. Confine your remarks to prisoner, he can in no ways be accountable for the conduct of others, and I object to any testimony except what goes to show what respondent [Dammon] has said or done, as wholly irrelevant.

Question by Chandler. Who was the presiding elder at the meeting?

Ans. Elder Dammon presided and took the lead of the meetings that I attended.

CHANDLER AND MORISON. The meetings appear to be Elder Dammon's meetings-he took the lead and guided them, and is accountable for any public misconduct, and ought to check it: we propose to show the character of his meetings, to show the character of the man. By the Court. You may relate any thing that took place at the meetings, where the respondent was presiding elder.

Witness [Blethen]. The first meeting I attended was two weeks ago yesterday [2 February 1845] --saw people setting on the floor, and laying on the floor; Dammon setting on floor; they were leaning on each other. It did not have the appearance of a religious meeting.


Cross-examination. Saw nothing like licentiousness--there was exhortation and prayer each evening. Was there last time after [for the purpose of retrieving] part of my family.


J.W.E. HARVEY, sworn. Have attended their meetings two days and four evenings. First meeting lasted eight days--have known Dammon six weeks--Dammon, White and Hall were leaders. Dammon said the sinners were going to hell in two days. They were hugging and kissing each other-Dammon would lay on the floor, then jump up-they would frequently go into another room. Dammon has no means to support himself that I know of. The meeting appeared very irreligious--have seen him sit on the floor with a woman between his legs and his arms around her.


Cross-examined. The room they went into was a back room; don't know what was in it-I was in two rooms where there was a fire. In the back room they said the world's people must not go. Dammon said the meeting was to be a private meeting and they wanted no one to come unless they believed as he did in the Advent doctrine. I did go considerably-If the meetings were religious ones I thought I had a right to go to them-I went to satisfy myself what was done. I had no hostile feeling against them. I think they held the first meeting a fortnight [two weeks before]. Dammon said he wanted no one to attend their meetings unless they believed in the advent doctrine.


WM. C. CROSBY, Esq. sworn. I was at the meeting last Saturday night, from about 7 o'clock to 9. There was a woman on the floor who lay on her back with a pillow under her head; she would occasionally arouse up and tell a vision which she said was revealed to her. They would at times all be talking at once, halloing at the top of their voices; some of them said there was too much sin there. After the cessation of the noise, Dammon got up and was more coherent--he complained of those that come there who did not believe in the advent doctrine. At one time Dammon said there was hogs there not belonging to the band, and pointed at me, and said, I mean you, Sir. Subsequently he addressed me again--said, you can't drive us out of town; he stared me in the face and said, I am an honest man, or I could not look you in the face, and you have hell's brass or you could not look me in the face. Dammon said if he was owner of the house he would compel all unbelievers to leave it--they were setting and laying on the floor promiscuously and were exceedingly noisy.

Cross-examined. Did he not say if there was any there who did not come for instruction he did not want them there.


Answer. That is not what he said--he pointed to me and said he meant you-I never was more pointedly addressed in my life--we stood five or six feet apart, most of the men were on the floor--most of the women in chairs--Do not know how long Dammon has been in town.


THOMAS PROCTOR, sworn. Saw the prisoner last Saturday--was present when he was taken; know nothing of the meetings myself.


MOSES GERRISH, sworn. I have never attended any of their meetings, when the prisoner was present.


LOTON LAMBERT, sworn. They were singing when I arrived--after singing they sat down on the floor--Dammon said a sister had a vision to relate-a woman on the floor then related her vision. Dammon said all other denominations were wicked--they were liars, whoremasters, murderers, &c.--he also run upon all such as were not believers with him. He ordered us off--we did not go. The woman that lay on the floor relating visions, was called by Elder Dammon and others, Imitation of Christ. Dammon called us hogs and devils, and said if he was the owner of the house he would drive us off--the one that they called Imitation of Christ, told Mrs. Woodbury and others, that they must forsake all their friends or go to hell. Imitation of Christ, as they called her, would lay on the floor a while, then rise up and call upon some one and say she had a vision to relate to them, which she would relate; there was one girl that they said must be baptized that night or she must go to hell; she wept bitterly and wanted to see her mother first; they told her she must leave her mother or go to hell--one voice said, let her go to hell. She finally concluded to be baptized. Imitation of Christ told her vision to a cousin of mine, that she must be baptized that night or go to hell-she objected, because she had once been baptized. Imitation of Christ was said to be a woman from Portland. A woman that they called Miss Baker, said the devil was here, and she wanted to see him--she selected me and said, you are the devil, and will go to hell. I told her she want [was not] my judge. Mr. [James] Ayer [Jr., owner of the house] then clinched me and tried to put me out door. I told him we had not come to disturb the meeting. The vision woman called [to] Joel Doore, said he had doubted, and would not be baptized again--she said Br. Doore don't go to hell. Doore kneeled to her feet and prayed. Miss Baker and a man went into the bedroom--subsequently heard a voice in the room hallo Oh! The door was opened--I saw into the room-she was on the bed-he was hold of her; they came out of the bedroom hugging each other, she jumping up and would throw her legs between his. Miss Baker went to Mr. Doore and said, you have refused me before, he said he had--they then kissed each other--she said "that feels good"--just before they went to the water to baptize, Miss Baker went into the bedroom with a man they called Elder White--saw him help her on to the bed--the light was brought out and door closed. I did not see either of them afterwards. Once I was in the other room talking with my cousin. Dammon and others came into the room and stopped our discourse, and called her sister and me the devil. Imitation of Christ lay on the floor during the time they went down to the water to baptize, and she continued on the floor until I left, which was between the hours of 12 and 1 o'clock at night.


Cross-examined. Answer. The visionist lay down on the floor I should think about 7 o'clock--she lay there from that time until I left. Dammon and others called her Imitation of Christ. Part of the time Dammon was down on the floor on his back--can't say certainly who first said she was Imitation of Christ, but can say Dammon repeatedly said so--Dammon said Christ revealed to her and she to others. I am not acquainted with Elder White. They called him Eld. White. They said if the Almighty had anything to say he revealed it to her, and she acted as mediator.


WM. RICKER, sworn. Know Elder Dammon--I went to attend their meeting once: they told me there would be none--I asked them where it would be on the next Sabbath? They told me they know not where; but they did not admit any but the advent band. I asked Dammon if that was Christ's religion? He said it is ours.


LEONARD DOWNES, sworn. --Went to meeting with Loten Lambert, and kept with him; heard him testify, and know what he has related to be true. He omitted one thing. I saw Dammon kiss other people's wives. (Witness underwent a severe cross examination, in which his testimony was so near a repetition of Mr. Lambert's, that it is by me, considered useless to copy it.)


WM. C. CROSBY, reexamined. I saw no kissing, but heard about it. I did not stay late, went about 7, left about 9 o'clock. After the visionist called them up she told them they doubted. Her object seemed to be to convince them they must not doubt. Dammon called the churches whoremasters, liars, thieves, scoundrels, wolves in sheep's clothing, murders, &c. He said read the STAR. By spells it was the most noisy assembly I ever attended-there was no order or regularity, nor anything that resembled any other meeting I ever attended--Dammon seemed to have the lead and the most art. I don't say Dammon shouted the loudest; I think some others stronger in the lungs than he.


DEACON JAMES ROWE, sworn. I was at Ayer's a short time last Saturday evening--Elder Dammon found fault with us for coming to his meeting-he spoke of other denominations as Esq. Crosby has just testified--said the church members were the worst people in the world. I have been young, and now am old, and of all the places I ever was in, I never saw such a confusion, not even in a drunken frolic. Dammon stood up on the floor and said, I am going to stand here--and while I stand here, they can't hurt you, neither men nor devils can't hurt you.


This is just the first part. You can read the full court report at http://www.ellenwhite.org/israel_news.htm

Gilbert Jorgensen
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have often thought that the events of that "meeting" reveal the true spiritual legacy of Adventism. It is not a surprise to me that there is so much covert sexual indescretion and abuse within the church. It was part of the organization's foundation. It is a generational legacy of sorts.

Colleen
Randyg
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Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gilbert,

It gets weirder and weirder. I read through the whole thing, and remember reading parts of it a couple years ago.

Colleen, in all fairness, it seems a stretch to me to determine the "true spiritual legacy of Adventism" by the events of these meetings.

As weird and seemingly over the top these meetings appeared to be, again it seems a stretch to me to suggest that these meetings can in anyway be related to what you describe as "so much covert sexual indiscretion and abuse within the church".

As to their role of whether or not "it was a part of the organizations's foundation", or whether there is "a generational legacy of sorts", I think can be at this point determined by God alone.

It seems that the account given above, although strange, weird and seemingly uncouth, also is the interpretations of people with biases, going in both directions. I would hesitate to generalize, and paint with too broad a brush, all the happenings of that time, by this account.

Peace and love to you both,

Randy

(Message edited by randyg on August 28, 2007)
Jorgfe
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Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Randy, I appreciate the points that you make. For me the real height of dissonance is the complete difference in the report of the same incidence in Early Writings by Ellen White, and the official court report in the local newspaper. The way in which Ellen White would "varnish" the truth to favor herself is so "in-your-face" that I have a term for it, but I would prefer that each reader choose their own.

Evidence and recent research indicates that she took the same literary liberties with everything else she wrote, and her own internal discrepancies stretch her credibility to the limit. One has to throw all common sense to the wind, and ignore the plain teaching of the Bible, in order to "buy into" her fantasy world.

Regarding Colleen's comments about the social improprieties of "Elder White" and others of both sexes, I propose that we call it what it was. One can clothe such behavior in all kinds of "spiritual" ways, and try to justify any kind of behavior that way.

The Mormons have some very bizarre behavior as a part of the washing process in the temple marriage ceremonial service. Anyone familiar with it will know what I am talking about, or can research it on Internet. When they play like they are in the Garden of Eden, they rationalize it all by considering it and the participants to be sharing in a "spiritual" service.

Let's call it for what it is. What would normally be considered licentious behavior was passing under the facade of some kind of highly charged religious experience in which witnesses testified (Elder) James White and others were participants. It would appear that Ellen White may have been too far out of it to participate in the same way since according to court testimony she spent a significant amount of time on the floor purportedly having visions and telling people they were going to go to hell if they didn't do what she said.

You can call the quote,

quote:

Miss Baker and a man went into the bedroom--subsequently heard a voice in the room hallo Oh! The door was opened--I saw into the room-she was on the bed-he was hold of her; they came out of the bedroom hugging each other, she jumping up and would throw her legs between his. Miss Baker went to Mr. Doore and said, you have refused me before, he said he had--they then kissed each other--she said "that feels good"--just before they went to the water to baptize, Miss Baker went into the bedroom with a man they called Elder White--saw him help her on to the bed--the light was brought out and door closed.


a "spiritual" service if you want to. The Corinthians also consider temple prostitution to be a religious function.

It is an acknowledged fact that James and Ellen were instrumental in starting the Seventh-day Adventist Church. That fact is documented in the Historical Prologue in the front of Early Writings. They were also the same participants listed here. All evidences indicate that this experience was one of a whole sequence of events that they considered to be the pioneer days of Adventism. The very fact that Ellen would give it such a glowing report in Early Writings also reinforces that conclusion.

There is nothing to be gained by "White-washing" their early behavior. That is what the White Estate is trying to do. Only by presenting the unadulterated truth for public inspection can seeking Adventists learn the "truth" behind the Adventist Truth and make informed decisions. We owe our dear brothers and sisters nothing less.

Your brother in Christ,
Gilbert Jorgensen
Melissa
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Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 8:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay, I'm still stuck on the top quote. How come if Ellen prays long and hard enough, the answer comes that night? Is there any example where God has responded so quickly to answer all life's confusion and clear everything up? It is fascinatinig that people can be so easily swayed...however well intentioned and earnest their 'search' for truth is. Wouldn't life be great if all we had to do was pray long and hard enough and then have someone with visions clear up all confusion? I don't mean to sound flip, but as a person with a couple of 4s in the age column, I can look over the prayers I've prayed and not one time found God gave such clear cut explanation in such an immediate time frame. Even things I can look BACK and see were answers to prayers, were anything but at the time. I guess it just seems so incredibly arrogant to believe the God of the universe would find her and her little group so important that he would promptly respond to their prayers and give them the 'truth.' Wouldn't we all like the answers to come so 'easily'?

The human psyche is incredibly complex in its ability to justify what it wants to justify and excuse what it wants to excuse. But ... where does the Bible even show any similar responsiveness to an individual as to the little flock leaders? I know they're not the first group, look at mormonism or even muslim religion, but it does sound like vending machine theology. (present your choices, drop a few coins, push the right buttons, and out comes the answer).
Jeremy
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Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, Gilbert, that we must call it what it is. God's Word warns us, in places such as 2 Peter 2 and Jude, about false teachers who are full of sexual immorality and licentiousness, under the cover of "spirituality/religion."

Gilbert, in your list of quotes from EGW, this sentence stood out to me:


quote:

He stood head and shoulders above the saints and above the angels.




Is she really saying that Jesus has a different, bigger more giant body than the one He had while on earth??!!

Also, I don't think I realized before that she was quoting her evil angel guide when she wrote that about Satan having taken "full possession of the churches"!

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on August 28, 2007)
Randyg
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Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gilbert,

I see our understandings and assessments of these meeting as very much the same. I do recognize that this happened I suspect as reported, and therefore is part of the wild and wholly history of the "little flock". I see very little Spiritual happening at any of these meetings as well. I guess I just wouldn't call it "foundational".

I have yet to see documentation that there is more covert sexual indiscretions and abuse among Adventists than there would be among any other denomination. If there is such research I would be happy to look at it.

I would be the last person here to "White wash" anything. I agree that there was most likely inappropriate behaviour. Quite likely very inappropriate. However, I see this as a human condition, and these folks were definitely not immune to it.

What I find most appalling is the frenzied nature of the whole thing, and the fact that ELlen White was basically telling people they were going to hell if they didn't follow her directives.

Was this whole episode spiritually from God, I seriously doubt that.

Was it a bunch of emotionally and hormonally charged teenagers, and 20somethings? you bet.

Was this type of situation and behaviour unique to this group? I doubt it.

Does that make it right? no way.

It really sounds like someone spiked the cider, or was sharing something else....maybe that vinegar.

I am all for making this stuff public, as you already know. Again, I think the evidence convicts by itself, without the need for us to generalize or editorialize unnecessarily.

I guess I see the whole EGW situation as so erroneous that adding to its already ridiculessness actually takes away and distracts the reader from its full impact. I would hate to see the message lost, by the way its delivered.

Your brother in Christ,

Randy Gerber
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Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 6:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good work Gilbert. Truth is truth. Lies are lies. Period. I too hope that this stuff will force the adventist leaders out of the closet. Let the chips fall the may the Lord prevail!

steve
Larry
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Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 7:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I would hate to see the message lost, by the way its delivered.




The Holy Spirit can overcome anything, even poor delivery. Any truth seeker will have the Holy
Spirit on his/her side. No fears.

What do you consider bad delivery for everyone here to avoid?

It is a good thing Dirk Andersen, Jack Gent and Robert Sanders did not compile their websites subject to a large committe!
Flyinglady
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Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 7:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have read the articles about Damon/EGW/others.
It is awful how EGW white washed the situation. The good thing for me is that I recognize it, acknowledge it, but I am no longer there. Thank You God. I do not have to rehash it. I would rather talk about what God has done for me.
For instance, a friend who I have mentioned earlier, who was studying with a retired SDA minister, in what she thought was a non denominational Bible study, is going to church with me Saturday evening. I am praying she drops the Bible studies with this person. That is what I would rather talk about.
Just my opinion.
Diana
Jorgfe
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Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana, I agree with what you are saying. Please allow me to share my thoughts with you without offending you in any way.

We (hopefully) have a lot of new seekers visiting these forums for whom this is "brand new" information -- information they have never heard before about Ellen White. They are the ones who are shocked to find out about these things for the first time. They include pastors, teachers, students -- the full spectrum of honest Seventh-day Adventist seekers that the Holy Spirit has brought here. There is, no doubt, a lot of overlap between the readers of this forum and proclamation Magazine. And, God willing, the floodgates of people leaving Seventh-day Adventism will continue to open as the Holy Spirit leads us to minister to their needs.

It is for them that I post these things in detail with supporting references for future study. They are at the same point in their journey out of Adventism that you and I were the first time we heard these things. While we who post gain a certain amount of camaraderie from sharing ideas and knowing others who do the same here, as a witnessing tool I suspect for everyone that posts there are probably hundreds who just lurk and are increasingly dissatisfied with the false doctrine and deceptions within Adventism that they are finding out about for the first time.

Like you, I feel that I have reached a point where I personally enjoy focusing more and more on "life beyond Adventism". I hope we never forget though the initial shock of finding out that Seventh-day Adventism was not our ultimate destiny.

To those who are, for the first time, finding out that Adventism is based on a preponderance of false doctrine that undermines everything that a Seventh-day Adventist has been taught such new information is tramatic indeed. It puts them in direct and emotional confrontation with Seventh-day Adventist relatives and friends. This is the most vulnerable time in their life. They are depending on us. It is to them that I feel an urgent need to adequately equip them so they are not left blowing in the breeze of wilting criticsm the first time they ask questions of those they previously trusted.

As I have pondered the very thoughts you just shared, I have felt a need for these forums to address three areas with more distinctness. Perhaps they do, and I have just been abusing the segrataion of each area. They are "Exposing Adventism", "Transitioning", and "The Christian Walk".

I, myself, am perhaps one of the more flagrant abusers of just posting everything under this same "discussion" forum. I can definitely relate to your sense of joy at what we experience after we have transitioned to a truly Christian fellowship. The agenda is so different from that of Seventh-day Adventism. For example, under the heading of "The Christian Walk" I would love to explore Discipleship, etc -- just one of the many things we didn't learn as Seventh-day Adventists. Even the Seventh-day Adventist version of "Bible Study" consists of following a predefined list of prooftexts. As a "baby Christian" I find that most of what I learned in my 54 years as a Seventh-day Adventist is useless garbage.

I would love to hear more of your thoughts about this.

Your brother in Christ,

Gilbert Jorgensen
Flyinglady
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Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 9:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I read all that stuff before I ever found out about FAF. I found everything through the links from D. Anderson's site.
I agree it would be nice to have the three sections: Exposing Adventism, Transitioning, and the Christian Walk.
What I have seen on CARM is that the adventists just get more entrenched in adventism when anything about EGW is written that contradicts the Bible, is ridiculous, etc.
Like you, what I learned in my 63 years as an SDA is useless to me, unless it is telling others what adventist believe. I have been out 3 1/2 years now. I have educated a couple of ministers from my church about adventism, including the senior minister, and especially the one in charge of the Celebrate Recovery program. I cannot forget my friend that is studying with an retired SDA minister. In this way the beliefs of the SDA church are useful.
So, those are my thoughts.
Your sister in Christ, who is so awesome.
Diana

(Message edited by Flyinglady on August 29, 2007)
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 6676
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am aware of a person who has been reading this forum for at least half a year. Becuase of what this person has read on this forum, they (I'll use the plural "they" instead of the gender-specific singular "he" or "she") have begun to see many problems with Ellen White and have actively begun to seek.

This person has recently joined a Bible study at a Sunday church which will be going through a book of the Bible (and just to be clear, this study is not in California!), and they are even contemplating beginning to attend a Sunday church occasionally.

This forum is not primarily for Adventists. It is for those who are questioning and transitioning and interacting with Adventists. Yet we know that many Adventists read this forum. If it is helpful for them, that is a blessing from God. If they are not yet ready to read about the emotional reactions and struggles and even suffering that go with awakening to the reality of extricating oneself from this false gospel and false prophet, they may read other websites.

We are here, as Gilbert said, to reveal what we are discovering. One of the distinct differences between this forum and sites like www.ellenwhite.org is that along with the sharing of quotes or doctrines we have real-time discussions that show how these things have affected us, how they still affect us, and what the more far-reaching implications are that most of us didn't consider when we were Adventists.

Adventists are too close to the whole thing to "see" with the clarity and implications of hindsight. Our hindsight is one of the benefits of this forum for those who lurk who are actually in a questioning mode. The reason Adventism is grossly misunderstood is that until very recently, there has been no "venue" for formers to reveal their experiences.

Also yesterday, I had a call from a man who said he had to talk to me in honor of his one-year anniversary of realizing he had to leave Adventism. He actually was spurred on his way out by hearing a former Jehovah's Witness who has a counter-cult ministry. This former JW said that Adventism was a cult as was JW and Mormonism, and it is the most difficult to leave because its heresy is so disguised.

We are "former Adventists" by God's soveriegn decree. He chose us and called us and gave us a voice. We are the only people who truly know both sides of the picture. We are the only ones who know exactly what is wrong with Adventism and also how the deception "works" in the minds and hearts of those entrenched in Adventism. The Christian community is confused because Adventists both don't and can't tell the whole truth about it.

We are the ones who understand how the deception is based in fear and uncertainty. We are the ones who can see, in retrospect, how Adventism was part of bigger issues of oppression, darkness, abuse, vulnerability to spiritual entanglements, and even chronic conditions such as OCD, anxiety disorders, aversion/addicitions, etc. These things are related—and because we are formers, we can see these connections most clearly.

We have an obligation to speak. Adventists need to know true freedom. They need to know the real Jesus, not the weak, fallible Jesus all of us were taught. Recounting and even discovering the real truth about Ellen and Adventist life (who else has boarding schools for their teenagers?), for example, help us to discover how we got our worldview and our assumptions.

Truth shines the light into every dark corner. We cannot cringe about lighting those dark corners. God Himself has equipped us and given us His Spirit to reveal Jesus and the truth about Adventism. This forum is not primarily designed as a first-approach to witness to Adventists. It is for those 'way down the road into questioning. But Adventists are welcome to observe if they wish--and many do, and many let what they read here gestate for a while before it brings forth fruit.

We are not called to speak a "tolerant truth". Many people deride Christians who "water down" the gospel and seeker-sensitive movments, yet at the same time people advocate a watered-down exposure of Adventism. This movement is heretical and places people in deep, confusing spiritual bondage. Just because we are "out" doesn't excuse us from dealing with it. From eternity past God ordained that we would be Advenitsts, and He also ordained that He would free us from it and give us the unique calling of helping to tell the truth about it and rescue others who were caught as we were.

We cannot assume that Adventists are saved just because they say they believe in Jesus. To assume that people who still embrace cultic teaching are saved just because they say they've accepted Jesus is as dangerous as the "easy-believism" that emergent Christianity endorses.

We have to place our entire lives into the hands of Jesus, and only we know how compromised Adventists are until they reqlinquish all their SDA distinctives and accept Jesus alone. We have to preach Christ and call Adventists into integrity, just as the apostles did throughout the NT.

Colleen

(Message edited by admin on August 29, 2007)
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 2088
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 2:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, that was a great post. You said so well many of the things I've been thinking.

Jeremy
Bmorgan
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Username: Bmorgan

Post Number: 158
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 3:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, Colleen! I agree with most of what you include in your above post. Thank you for saying all you have said.

I think I understand what you mean, however, I am not sure I agree with when you say,

"We are "former Adventists" by God's soveriegn decree. He chose us and called us and gave us a voice. We are the only people who truly know both sides of the picture. We are the only ones who know exactly what is wrong with Adventism and also how the deception "works" in the minds and hearts of those entrenched in Adventism. The Christian community is confused because Adventists both don't and can't tell the whole truth about it."

I think a person can understand the depth of a matter even though he has not experienced it personally. As you implied, some former Adventists for that matter,want to embrace a "tolerant truth"

Also I don't know if I quite understand or agree that God placed me in Adventism then called me out.

I am disagreeing with you but I am not sure if I am correct for disagreeing either?

I know Ephesians 2:10 says God prepared in advance work for us to do. Is that your line of thinking?
Susans
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Username: Susans

Post Number: 449
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen, Colleen, I agree as well!

Susan

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