| Author | Message | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 66 Registered: 4-2004 |
I asked one of the women in my Bible study if she had any books on Bible inerrancy that I could borrow. I sat down to look at them last night. The first book was "Now that's a good question!" by R.C. Sproul. The first chapter I flipped to was called church life. In that chapter he mentions that most christians maintain that the Sabbath should be observed in some way. His logic for this is that Sabbath has been in effect since Creation. He brings up the fact that states have blue laws. "Sabbath keeping was not even seen as a violation of the separation of church and state; everybody was required to have a Sabbath whether they were Christian, Jew, Muslim or whatever." He also brings up that on Sunday we should rest and avoid unnecessary buying. I am not bringing this up to hear arguments on the Sabbath, I have read "Sabbath in Christ". I believe Jesus is our Sabbath. I struggle with being "nitpicky". I am not inclined to finish this book because I disagree with his view on Sabbath. Have any of you been blessed reading books where the author did not agree with your view on the Sabbath? | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 444 Registered: 8-2006 |
Hi, I do like to read and listen to RC Sproul. He's a theologian in the Reformed tradition, and believes that parts of covenants are transferred to subsequent covenants. That is why Presbyterians in the Westminster Confession state the 10 commandments are binding on Christians today. I may have this slightly wrong, and if so, Dennis or someone more familiar will correct me. So, the answer for me is yes, I have been blessed reading where I did not agree with all the author's views. For me, and only me, I have cast aside my feelings that I had when I was an SDA- "to the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to these words, there is no light in them". HTH, Susan | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 181 Registered: 7-2007 |
Actually now that I've found out that Jesus is our Sabbath Rest (Hebrews 4), as well as many other things where the Adventist church doesn't agree with the Bible, I'm dismayed at how very poorly I understood the Bible back when I was an Adventist. If I read a book where the author tried to uphold the "shadow of Christ" instead of Christ; I would come to the conclusion that he/she didn't know any more of what the Bible said than I did when I was an Adventist. For my part, I wouldn't read another word. I'm too new to read other books concerning Christianity - (just a little over a year out of the SDA church.) I've been immersed so long and hard in Adventism (over 50 years), that I need to just read the Bible, especially the New Testament, and get a thourough grounding in it, so that I'll recognize error when I come accross it. Decieved once - twice shy! I'm WAY gun shy right now about reading anything about God, other than the Bible!!! Dianne | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 182 Registered: 7-2007 |
Oh that's a great text you quoted Susan! That's a good text to give to Adventists, after one points out to them where EG White contradicts the Bible! That bears repeating  Isaiah 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Also one could point out to them, Revelation 22:18 about what happens when people add to "...the words of the prophecy of this book..." It's either talking about the book of Revelation or the whole Bible - I don't know which. In any case, Ellen White ADDS a whole lot! Dianne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6664 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, I learn from authors with whom I have theological disagreements as long as they are true to the pure gospel. If they uphold Jesus as the all-in-all, if they hold a high view of Scripture, if they uphold the Trinity, if they love and honor Jesus—I can learn from them. I do read with my "eyes open", so to speak, however. Dianne, When I was newly out of Adventism, I couldn't have read someone endorsing covenant theology per se, either. Now, even though I have significant disagreements with covenant theology, I do not see it as something that should divide the body. I always have to read discriminatingly. I have to know what I believe and why, based not on what I read from theologians but from what I read in the Bible as I pray to be taught the truth. R.C. Sproul would be a good person to read re: the reliability of the Bible. I'd like to direct you also to Verle Streifling's article on this subject in the May/June, 2006, issue of Proclamation!. You can read it here: http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2006_MayJun.pdf Colleen | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 446 Registered: 8-2006 |
Definitely there should be no disagreements theologically on the essentials of Christianity. I would not read any material where the author was not orthodox. It is good advice to become grounded in the Bible before reading any outside authors. Then read discriminatingly, absolutely. Susan | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 307 Registered: 7-2005  |
I wasn't raised Adventist, but I did spend 16 years in it. Before I entered Adventism, I had a very good grounding in the Bible and, because of that, I was able to recognize Adventist error pretty easily. Now that I'm out of Adventism, I'm finding it very rewarding to read and listen to R.C. Sproul. I do not, however, agree with his stance on infant baptism or Sunday-keeping. But that doesn't detract from my ability to gain valuable insights on the core doctrines of the Reformation, which Sproul is very good at teaching. I recently listened to his 4-CD set on predestination and it was the best teaching I've ever heard on that subject. If you do read Sproul and want to ask questions about specific things he teaches, this forum is a very good place to come and ask those questions. You'll get a well-rounded set of responses from a very loving group of people. Honestwitness | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 571 Registered: 7-2000 |
Sure, I find all sorts of gems from folks that I differ with in other areas. I too have a big problem with covenant theology. It is a school of theology that I strenously object too--and yet I have 'The Character of God, by R.C. Sproul' in my library. Speaking of libraries, if you want to do some reading on Biblical inerrency or any other theological topic, I would highly recommend this site: www.ccel.org This is the Christian Classics online library. You can even download many of the books here and there are some real gems. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 210 Registered: 5-2007 |
Busymom, You touched on a main stumbling block from my point of view. I read here where the distinctions are made between orthodox sources and others. (I assume they mean extra biblical, SDA, Mormon etc) Thus , by default, the consensus seems to be , we may acknowledge that error does or may exist from any or all authors, but that nonetheless, they have a blessing (and I assume a truth) to express. Thus, the responsibility comes full circle back to the reader (student) to discerne what is correct and what is error. Plus, they say we are still responsible for our error/mistakes. If you are like me, you would hope there is an authoritive and reliable resource. I conclude, it simply does not exist. I believe the Bible as connonized is the closest we have to reliable. But it is limited, partial and incomplete. It is not exhaustive, nor can it answer questions beyond what it already there. Based upon these facts. My position is we can only stay within the covering of the whole picture the Bible affords us rather than being hung up on gaps and shadows of uncertaintys. In matters of theology. I have concluded everyone in that postition is offering their interpretation and view points. Considering there is wisdom is the counsel of our elders, I take their input with respect. Ultimately, whether I can accept or reject the input depends upon my ability to understand how they arrived at that conclusion or theory. One should not blindly accept anything without a reasoned endorsement. "Whatever is not of conviction" | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 572 Registered: 7-2000 |
Jim, I would encourage you to go to the site I provided above, and read through or download a book called 'The Divine Inspiration of the Bible' by A.W. Pink. It gives a good, basic overview of the trustworthiness of the Bible without being too hard to read. If you can afford it, I would also highly suggest 'Inerrency' by Norman Geisler, which is scholarly and takes some time to wade through. The reason for these suggestions is that sometimes the SDA church really destroys the faith of someone in what the Bible is. There is a SDA pastor on CARM who is adamant that the Bible has errors and is incomplete. That simply is not the case, and like so many things SDA, you have to start over from square one and rebuild a belief system that is in line with the Bible. Also, give yourself some time to transition out---say, two or three years at a minimum to rebuild a Christian faith. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 345 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jim, Thank you for your honesty. I agree with Loneviking and would add that it's so important to not only recognize and work through the consequences of being raised SDA, but continue your journey into Truth with a healthy, well-balanced church. One more to add to your book list if you have time is Lee Strobel's new book "The Case For The Real Jesus". I really enjoyed how Strobel uses logic to show how reliable Scripture is. It is an easy to read book and I found it enjoyable as well as informative. God bless you... Patria | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 183 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim02; The Bible has in it, everything we need for salvation. Even the Mormons who say that the Bible is true "in so far as it's been translated correctly" (because Joseph Smith's writings contradict it), can no longer offer that excuse, because when the Dead Sea scrolls came out in the 1940's, they verified that indeed the Bible had been translated correctly. I know you're probably not a Mormon - I just wanted to bring up the Dead Sea scrolls, because they did indeed show that. Again, the Bible has all we need, and more; for our salvation I'm thinking that SDA pastor on CARM who says that, must have found that the Bible and Ellen White don't agree. When one does that, they would have to go with either one or the other. This pastor must be agreeing with Ellen White and discarding the Bible. (I can imagine that if one was a pastor and the church was his employment, it would be difficult to give it up - kind of like the early Christians facing the lions, I guess.) Colleen, I agree that there are other good books. I'm just being extra cautious until I've been a Christian for a good long time! Dianne | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 762 Registered: 6-2006  |
Busymom, I agree with most here, RC Sproul is a reliable Christian author. You have to understand though, that he is looking at the Sabbath from a "never-been" point of view as opposed to an SDA (or former) perspective. I bought that book several years ago (before I joined in here) and I didn't give that chapter a second thought. I understood what he meant, as the Sabbath means something completly different to us never-beens. However, after being in here and fellowshipping with formers and people transitioning out I see that chapter in a whole new light! Do I agree with him? To an extent I do - Christians do need to set aside time to rest as well as taking the time to worship God each week. I don't agree that unnecessary buying should be limited only on Sunday. That's kind of silly. Sunday shouldn't be significant in that way. It's all a matter of perspective! Leigh Anne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4214 Registered: 3-2004  |
I did not like what Rick Warren said about Sabbath in a book I have by him. I went to a Celebrate Recovery summit at his church 2 weeks ago. When he spoke to the group he said something about sabbath and then explained it as setting time aside to rest and worship God. From that perspective I understood him. Before I was looking at it from a very prejudiced former SDA view. Diana | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 346 Registered: 3-2005 |
And therein lies the beauty of Romans 14! So far, even of all the Christians I've run in to who view Sabbath as a day, NONE of them are dogmatic to the point of saying it saves. We all agree on the essentials! http://www.equip.org/site/c.muI1LaMNJrE/b.2548387/k.98C0/The_Essentials.htm Here is a basic and quite limited description of the problem with Sabbath in Adventism, but it's a start. At the core, the issue is that in their doctrine, Sabbath is an essential! That's a key difference from Christianity. Patria (Message edited by patriar on August 29, 2007) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4216 Registered: 3-2004 |
I forgot to put in my post above that Rick Warren does not make it a salvation issue or a must do. Thank you god. Diana | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 69 Registered: 4-2004 |
Thank you everyone for your replies. Thank you for the link Lone Viking. I am looking forward to doing some reading when I have a chance. I finished the chapter on the Bible that Sproul wrote and found it informative. It didn't answer my questions however. I am wondering if a Bible commentary wouldn't be helpful in studying. To give an example of something I am trying to understand. James 1:13 says..."for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." Gen. 22:1 says..."And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham" I wish I could find a bible course that teaches how to study the Bible. Obviously context is very important when studying. In Jonah it says Jonah was in the belly of a fish. In Matthew it says Jonah was in a whale. Obviously a whale and a fish are not the same thing. I am told that back when Matthew was written whales and fish were viewed in the same category, where as today they are classified differently. Feel free to tell me I am being way too nitpicky. I really feel like I need a method to study the bible. I read Gary Inrig's basic outline on studying the Bible that is here on this site, but don't feel that it helps me with the above issues. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6675 Registered: 12-2003 |
Busymom, You are asking a very good question. What we did not learn as Adventists was "inductive Bible study". This method of Bible study begins by looking first a a large passage of text--often beginning with a book, and observing/taking notes. It progresses into comparing words/ideas with cross-references (you can use your marginal references) to see how the same idea is disucssed elsewhere in the Bible. The first thing you must do is "observe". You need to understand the original audience, their hsitorical background, and the ways they would have understood the material when they first read it. The introductions to the individual books, if you have a study Bible, give you excellent background material on the author and the audience and the time and purpose of writing. You move outward from first reading through the eyes of the original audience to comparing with other writings from the same author. Then move to comparing words/themes with authors from the rest of the testament you're in, then progress to comparisons with the other testament. The LAST step is application for yourself. Adventists tend to read a narrow passage and apply it to themselves. This is backwards. A passage cannot mean something wildly different for the original readers than it would mean to us today. Here is a link to an outline for doing inductive Bible study that I think you'll find helpful and easy to follow. When you begin to see how the Bible interconnects with itself, it is like digging up treasure to do inductive Bible study! Here's the link: http://www.godsquad.com/discipleship/inductive.htm I want to add that using commentaries should be your last resort. First read and compare the bible with the Bible. Always pray for God to teach you the truth with His Spirit, to reveal to you what He wants you to know, and to help you end your study time knowing Him in a new and deeper way. He absolutely will answer your prayers! Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 187 Registered: 7-2007 |
Adventists certainly do take things out of context in the Bible, as do the other cults; to support their specific beliefs. On the one hand, it's still amazing to me that the Adventist church is WRONG! On the other hand it's so WONDERFUL to take the Bible as it reads. It's a relief to know that I can take the Bible just as it reads - I don't have to say: "it says this, but... Ellen White explains it that way..." Everything necessary to our salvation is right there available to anyone Dianne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2086 Registered: 10-2004  |
Busymom, With some of those issues, it has do with different translations of the original languages. For example, in the NASB, Matthew 12:40 says: "for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." The original Greek word that Matthew used is ketos (Strong's #2785), which does not mean "whale" necessarily. See: http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2785&Version=kjv Strong's Exhaustive Concordance gives the following definition:
And, again, in Genesis 22:1 God was not "tempting" Abraham with evil, but rather, He was "testing" his faith. Here is how the NASB puts it: "Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, 'Abraham!' And he said, 'Here I am.'" The original Hebrew word used is nacah, see: http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H05254&Version=kjv And Strong's says:
Also, one thing that is very important in studying the Bible is using good hermeneutics (principles of interpretation). Good Biblical hermeneutics actually come from the Bible itself. Here is an excellent webpage which talks about Biblical hermeneutics: http://www.forananswer.org/Top_General/Hermeneutics.htm Jeremy |
