| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 797 Registered: 11-2005 |
Contrast Ellen's definition of the meaning of baptism with the Bible: What is the Biblical meaning of baptism? Does it commemorate the resurrection of Christ, or does it represent the spiritual rebirth of a Christian as a "new creation," given a fresh start by the action of God, freed from a sinful past life and able to begin a "new life" in relationship with Christ via the Holy Spirit? Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 23 Days since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6793 Registered: 12-2003  |
Amazing, Gilbert. That quote reminds me of an essay test written by a student who didn't really read the book but tries to wing it under pressure. Nothing like looking at a few passages and using them to support your own theory! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2144 Registered: 10-2004  |
Actually, Gilbert, that's another thing that we were falsely taught by Adventism. John 3 does not refer to baptism--or else baptism would be necessary for salvation (which is what Adventism teaches--well, SDA baptism not Christian baptism!). Notice that Jesus says: "no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water..." That would mean that baptism is necessary for salvation, and that would be salvation by works. See the following commentary which lists some of the ways that "born of water" has been interpreted: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/david_guzik/sg/Jhn_3.html Jeremy | ||
| Markmartin Registered user Username: Markmartin Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2007 |
On this point of baptism: It seems that the SDA Church really teaches baptismal regeneration. This is the clear impression one gets from carefully reading SDA statements on baptism. Point 15 of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of the SDA Church states: "By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)" (Source: Fundamental Beliefs, http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html). Note it says through baptism we, "...become His people,...". Here's another reference: "To help us understand how God can transform us into His children, Jesus modeled the process of baptism for us. Baptism symbolized dying to self and coming alive in Jesus. Seventh-day Adventists practice full immersion baptism because by being fully buried beneath the water we symbolize that God's grace fully fills us with His new life for the future. Through baptism we are truly born again in Jesus." (Source: What Adventists Believe, http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/index.html). Again, note the statement says Adventists believe baptism to be a model of the process of "...how God can transform us into His children,..." and that they believe "Through baptism we are truly born again in Jesus." Adventist "pioneers" were obviously influenced by the Methodist-Episcopal, Baptist, and Cambellite (Church of Christ) churches they were grew up in or encountered. So you get this interesting mixture of 'symbolic'baptism by immersion, for regeneration, in order to become the people of God. Significantly, I don't remember even discussing the matter in my Adventist theology classes. It was almost like there was no comprehension of the issues. I don't want to begin a debate on baptism because it would not profitable in this kind of forum. I'm just bringing the information to those who may not have realized it before. It's like finding a piece of the puzzle you've overlooked, and now fits into place. God bless, Pastor Mark | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1461 Registered: 9-2006  |
I would like to draw your attention to a part of what Mark read off there. "Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church." I am pretty sure that what they mean by "received as members by His church." Is that they are speaking of the Adventist church in particular and not the indivisible church of Christ body. Again there is the mixture of language used by Christians everywhere which causes an idle reading by most evangelicals to get the wrong impression of the Adventist church. Many words they use which sounds Christian to evangelicals has a completely diffrent meaning to them. Hope this makes sense, I just felt the need to point it out. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4305 Registered: 3-2004  |
River, I like you. You see things as they are. There are words the Christians use and SDAs use the same words, but the SDA has a different meaning for it. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2145 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thanks for those quotes, Pastor Mark. Also, for anyone who is interested, Timothy Oliver (of Watchman Fellowship, a countercult ministry), has an audio series on Adventism at this link, and one of the topics he covers is the SDA view of baptism. He quotes from the official SDA belief book Seventh-day Adventists Believe. Jeremy | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 798 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jeremy, excellent link! You should post that over at CARM. Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 24 Days since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 160 Registered: 7-2000 |
I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen. 1 Tim 1:12-17 Yes, Pastor Mark, Baptismal regeneration is clearly what I was taught and how I understood SDA's teaching of baptism. Therefore, it was not a question of whether or not I was going back in the "water" when I understood Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit," I was declaring my faith in Christ when I was baptized at my church in 2000. It was completely different in meaning and understanding when I went through the process within adventism in 1973 In Christ Alone: Newsboys In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save ‘Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again And as He stands in victory Sin’s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ No guilt in life, no fear in death This is the power of Christ in me From life’s first cry to final breath Jesus commands my destiny No power of hell, no scheme of man Can ever pluck me from His hand ‘til He returns or calls me home Here in the power of Christ I’ll stand(x2) (Message edited by bmorgan on September 15, 2007) | ||
| Markmartin Registered user Username: Markmartin Post Number: 39 Registered: 8-2007 |
bmorgan, "In Christ Alone" is one of my favorite songs. The lyrics declare wonderful truths. I think I'll listen to it right now! Thanks, Pastor Mark | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1462 Registered: 9-2006 |
I would like to approach the problem of the use of every day jargon as used by Christians everywhere and its use by Adventist and more especially where every day Christian jargon is used by the Adventist baptism into the church. To do that I need to take a walk down memory lane to the time I first discovered the Adventist and ask the question “who and what are these people?” Why did it take four years to uncover Adventism? Well for one thing I used no aides such as the internet. And for another thing it is the jargon that they use. If you ask why I did not use a valuable tool such as the internet, you will have to ask God about that, he just prompted me not to use it and I didn’t. This mixture of Christian jargon covers the motive of Adventism it’s self. Now to try to pin down what I want to say, there is one of my Adventist acquaintances who goes on “Missions” to different countries abroad and keeps in contact by e-mail as to progress reports in these countries. The progress reports will be something that goes like this “We had fifteen baptized into the church last week and 20 this week” and so on, I have never heard him make a statement that “So many this week or that week” accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. Not once. It’s the same with my other Adventist acquaintances; I am just picking on him for example because he does travel to these other countries for the drives put on by the Adventist church or GC or who ever sponsors them, I have another Adventist friend, a retired pastor and his wife went on one of the jaunts recently, same thing. Now to this evangelical, souls saved is good news and so before I got to the bottom of Adventism I was keenly interested and rejoiced with him. When and I why did I stop rejoicing? As I got further along in my search for answers as to who these people were and what they were I realized that not once did they say the person had accepted the Lord as their savior, this is approximately when Adventism began to reveal itself to me and little did I know that was heading for encounter with the spirit of Adventism, the evil spirit that is the driving force behind the deceit of these people. If I had of known then what I was to face later I would probably have run right then as far away from the Adventist people as I could get. If I would have had all this piled on me at once I do believe it would have been too much, maybe that is why the Holy Spirit said no to the internet and it wouldn’t have had the same effect as it would with step by step discovery, but that’s just my musing. Maybe it was the fact that they did not mention that anyone received Christ as their personal savior that got my attention the most, aside from the fact that I was re-exploring Christian theology in its self at the same time and things just weren’t coming up kudo’s for the Adventist doctrine. So what is it about the baptism thing that has to do so deeply with the general Adventist theology, church, and Ellen White? I can only explain it as deadness of spirit, like drinking a flat pepsi, it is without life, a formality, a ritual that has no more meaning than smoking an after dinner cigar or nodding our head at a passing stranger. The Adventist baptism is a culmination of a church without life giving Spirit, it is the sought after goal of a church that had no life giving Spirit to begin with, at least the way I sense it. There is no spiritual connection that I can see, and without the Spirit of Christ we are none of his. I know that is a rather awkward statement, but the Bible says it, not me. Now, I am not judging them I am just saying what it appears like to me. To be devoid of the Spirit seems like you have to be devoid of him in the first place, I am not aware of him just running in and right back out. Now while it is true that these baptisms do add to the Adventist quote “church” and there is a very real danger of that because it leaves these young people thinking they have fulfilled the requirement of God and that “That” (Adventist church) is “The” church. The problem is with this whole thing, as I see it, without the life giving Spirit of the Lord Jesus in the form of the Holy Spirit, the statement that Jesus made to Nicode'mus “You must be born again” has not been fulfilled and he/she ends up in a dead church and just as dead as they are. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. They get the young ones to take the classes and the go through the formality of dunking them completely under and announce to the world another baptism into “The Church” when all along it is of the flesh, at least I believe for most of them and then they have to spend the rest of their lives trying to figure out why, when they have been baptized into the church, they still have such niggling of cognitive dissonance and when they think of death great fear comes upon them. And if they don’t find their way out they must face death with great dread. I think one of my friends is getting closer and closer to the truth just from a statement he made to a fellow the other day who was trying to tell him he had found a way to live longer, and every time I get the chance to show my assurance for salvation it brings him a little closer to knowing he must depend 100% on Christ for his salvation. To me, this whole thing is not about getting them out of the Adventist church; it’s about them being born of the Spirit, that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit and life everlasting, this flesh will die. That which is not born of the Spirit is dead already, Jesus told one fellow “Let the dead bury their dead” and I am pretty positive that is exactly what he meant. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6799 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, you have perfectly summed up the situation of Adventism and it's look-alike practices that have no life. Jeremy, that link is fabulous. I loved what Tim Oliver said at the end of his talk on Adventist baptism: (Not quite a direct quote but close)--Whatever one may say about individual Christians being truly born again, the Adventist church itself is clearly teaching a false gospel and is not a Christian church. Tim makes the same point you made above, Mark, that Adventist baptism is actually baptisimal regeneration. He read from What Adventists Believe—the book outlining the (now 28) fundamental beliefs—and showed that Adventists speak with what he called a "forked tongue". They make statements that baptism does not effect salvation, that it is a sign, but they further state (and, he pointed out, these statements outnumber the former) that baptism is required and is the means by which a person becomes a member of the church. What all this emphasizes to me is that even the terms they use inside their definition are misleading. For one thing, their definition of "church", as River said above, is different from Christianity's definition. Secondly, their idea of "regeneration" is also different. Because they believe people do not have spirits that can know God, that are literally born dead and literally born again by the Holy Spirit when one professes Christ, the Adventist idea of "new birth" is simply a new frame of mind. They may say the Holy Spirit indwells them, but they deny any literal spirit regeneration. In other words, as River said so well, everything they practice and say is a dead, hollow replica of the real practices and events of Christianity. They don't believe in regeneration in biblical terms; they do believe baptism is necessary if one is to be saved; they have no idea how to talk about these things in depth without contradicting themselves because they truly have no idea (corporately, at least) what the words they use really mean. They sound almost "normal", but their whole internal spiritual experience operates in a "parallel reality" from true Christianity. Those who actually are Christian, are so because Jesus chose to awaken them and reveal Himself in answer to their God-given desire for truth. Any Adventist who is truly saved, is saved in spite of Adventism. Adventism completely obscures the gospel and leaves its people wallowing in confusion and despair and uncertainty. And people who actually are born again will not flourish in Adventism. Their growth will be stunted; they will always be plagued with cognitive dissonance and frustration at not finding true resolution. And River, you said it well again: the reason this confusion and darkness continues to deceive and enslave is that it is driven by a spirit that offers a "look-alike" form of religion to its deceived victims. Adventists really need us to pray that God will awaken them to the true Jesus of the Bible and to the true gospel. They need to KNOW that there really is truth, consistency, and spiritual resolution in Christ. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2146 Registered: 10-2004 |
I've also noticed that they don't even think that "regeneration" is the same thing as "new birth"/"born again"! The latter is of course redefined, too, but I've noticed that they seem to think that "regeneration" is a long, drawn out, lifelong process! They seem to have no clue that "regeneration" is a synonym for the "new birth"--or else, they think that is a lifelong process, also. *Sigh.* Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2147 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here is a section from the chapter on baptism in the official SDA belief book, that I don't think Tim Oliver quoted from in his audio presentation, that makes it totally clear that they are saying that baptism is necessary for salvation:
Also, the President of the SDA Church, Jan Paulsen, says the following in his "Let's Talk" feature on adventist.org where he answers the questions of Adventist young people:
Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 15, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1463 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen says "Those who actually are Christian, are so because Jesus chose to awaken them and reveal Himself in answer to their God-given desire for truth." Here is that phenomena again “Those who are actually Christian” I sure don’t deny that there actually are Christians born of the Spirit out of that dead situation, have never denied it, as to the reason’s as to whether the ones that are born of the Spirit are especially looking for truth that God does this, I just don’t know the answer to that. I have to consider my own case of being born of the Spirit, was I looking for truth? I wasn’t looking for anything that I know of, accept maybe more beer. I probably wasn’t even looking for that as I had a pretty good tank full at the time, but it is undeniable that he did touch me with an unexpected Damascus road sort of experience. The Pastor of the church I woke up and went to on Sunday morning will tell you that it was nothing short of an absolute all out miracle and my wife would tell you the same thing. Can I say that I was born of the Spirit while drunk? Of course not, what I am saying is that God turned me in another direction that faithful Friday evening, just as he turned Paul to the very Christians he had been after. The Christians were afraid of him, they knew what he had been doing just previous to that. Can we say Paul was looking for truth? The way it reads he was just looking to round up some Christians like you would a bunch of strays although I admit I am being a little presumptive because I really don’t know what he had in mind, I know about what I had in mind and it wasn’t much, just how I was going to appear not drunk when I knew I was very well filled to the gills, that was the only feat I wanted to accomplish. I just do not remember ever accepting Christ as my savior as a formality I just remember that he all of a sudden was my savior. Now you might ask “Well River, how do you know you were ever saved?” My answer is because of the Spirit of God in me and I am different than I was then. Anybody that knew me will tell you that, even the rank unbelievers that knew me before would tell you that. That’s what I was talking about before, that that is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Could it be that the reason this was done to me, for me, was to show his patience to those who would call on his name as Paul said it was with him? I think so. Now I don’t liken my being born of the Spirit anywhere near Paul’s case, but Paul wasn’t looking for Jesus either, he was busy ragging the ones that believed in him, he wasn’t looking for Jesus and there is where the resemblance lays. So it is to his (Jesus) glory, long suffering and patience and to him alone goes the glory, I dare say if Paul and I compared notes we would both end up praising God for his un-searchable riches and glory. I would like to end this tirade by saying that Gods appearance comes to each of us in a different manner you might say, but we know this fact, that Spirits are reborn out of that dead church and it is to Gods un-searchable glory and his alone. I have got to quit letting that dead church cause me so much dismay and begin to pray in faith believing for souls to be saved, namely the ones he has brought my way. Its rather hard for me to pray for the great unknown out there, but these folks he has brought my way and I am going to start praying for those I do know. Ya know what? I just talked myself into having more faith! Jeremy, I finally got around to listening to the link a few minutes ago, great link, and just to uphold what the guy is saying, I wasn’t baptized for approximately a year and a half after I was born of the Spirit. And I agree with the fellow, they are teaching baptismal regeneration, but they want everybody to believe they are just other Christians so they wiggle around with the whole shebang. One thing you have to give them credit for, they are expert wafflers. Its like trying to catch an eel. River | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 802 Registered: 11-2005 |
Wow! I want to thank everyone for all of your input. Having been an Adventist all my life, I never had the experience of "finding out about Jesus. I felt I always knew him, and baptism was like a train station that we stopped at. Now for more detail. I was born a six-generation Seventh-day Adventist. My mother traces it back to William Miller. So I have grown up in a family that is well establish in Adventism. In fact we have very old family pictures of relatives with Ellen White. My wife's side also has quite an Adventist heritage. When I was 8 my father got his doctorate in math, and we moved to Emmanuel Missionary College, Berrien Springs, Michigan, around 1959. Shortly afterwards the General Conference moved the Seminary to Berrien Springs, and the instutution was renamed Andrews University. I attended Andrews Elementary. I don't remember the grade now, but our entire class of about 30 students had "baptismal class" instead of the regular Bible class for first semester. The teacher went over each of the church doctrines we were to learn in time to all be baptised as a class at the end of first semester. Everyone in my class was required to attend since it was being taught in place of the regular Bible class. I will never forget the date that I was baptized because it was the Sabbath following the assassination of John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963. Our entire class (minus two students who refused to participate) were lined up in the hallway going around to the baptistry. The subject on our minds that morning was the shocking assassination that had just occurred. When the time came in the service for each of us to be baptized we went up the stairs to the baptistry where the youth pastor would baptize us. Afterward we would return to our side in the back of the church behind the baptistry. The girsl were being processed from the stairway to the baptistry on the Lamson Hall side. I remember the pastor saying, "Gilbert, you have often told me of your love for the Lord. Do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior?". I said, "I do." He said, "I now baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost", and submerged me into the water. When he raised me back up, the audience of about 1000 (Pioneer Memorial Church) clapped, and I climbed out of the baptistry to make room for the next student. When he said, "Gilbert, you have often told me of your love for the Lord." I thought, that's funny. He was not my teacher, I was never asked by anyone (including my parents), and I never told anyone that. In my heart I did love Jesus -- the only way that an Adventist knows how. But I never did go through an "accepting Jesus as my personal Savior" experience because I had been born an Adventist, and raise as a part of God's "true church". Getting baptized meant that I now was a bonafide member of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination, and could take part in communion and vote on church issues, etc. So there you have it. My story. I don't quite know what to make of it. My wife and two daughters were baptized as Seventh-day Adventists. Peter, our 12-year old, was baptized this past spring at the Baptist Church we now attend. His Bible Study Class teacher at church baptized him after talking with him over time about what it meant. Peter specifically came to me and said, "I think I would like to be baptized." There was no group, or class pressure. Does that mean my Seventh-day Adventist baptism was not legitimate? I really don't know what to think. I had always viewed myself as a "Seventh-day Adventist" since childhood. We were taught that someday we would supposedly be perfect, or else we would never go to heaven. I really had no idea what it meant for Jesus to be my personal Savior, because they don't teach that in Adventism. I thought at the time I had given my heart to Jesus, and I desparately wanted to be good. I was, after all, a Seventh-day Adventist member. That part was done. The rest was now up to me as to whether I would get all the sin out of my life to be perfect enough to ever make it to heaven. By 13 I had despaired of ever being good enough. I just couldn't do it. No matter how hard I tried to follow Ellen White's teachings I simply could not get all the sin out of my life. It was hopeless. Back to baptism. Was I baptised in the Christian sense that I understand now? The problem is that with all of my Seventh-day Adventist "baggage" I really don't know for sure what Christian baptism is. How does one give their heart to Jesus and get baptized in that sense, when they have been born and Adventist. I am kind of talking to myself out loud here because I am trying to clearly understand the difference between Adventist "baptism" and "Christian" baptism for someone who has been told that they have been part of "God's Church" from the time they were born. And the talk about "baptismal regeneration" from a Seventh-day Adventist perspective compared with a Christian perspective -- Perhaps Pastor Mark could give us who are in this predicament a very simple side-by-side comparision of Seventh-day Adventist baptism and Christian baptism. What is legitimate, and what is not. I know for certain that God gave me a "new heart" about two years ago. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind. And it was nothing that I did. It was like coming out of a tunnel, and then seeing broad daylight. It didn't happen overnight. The realization probably took about three months. So what kind of experience was that, as far as how it relates to Christian Baptism. Was my Seventh-day Adventist baptism illegitimate? Do I need to be baptized again as a Christian? The baptism I had was all I knew at the time. Can anyone else relate to this? Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 24 Days since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6802 Registered: 12-2003 |
Gilbert, I relate. In fact, I've talked to many former Adventists who relate. My story was much like yours, including the baptisimal class for the whole fifth grade at Portland Union Elementary School. We were all baptized one Sabbath at the conclusion of a city-wide evangelistic series which featured a well-known evangelist from the North Pacific Union (funny, I can't remember now who he was). Our fifth-grade class baptisms were counted as part of the "souls baptized" which the evangelist was able to turn in to the Conference at the conclusion of the meetings. (You know how it worked; they had to report their baptisms to validate their salaries and the money it took to travel around with that whole evagelistic "team" including the singing evangelist and the evagelists' wives, one of whom usually did a progressive black-light chalk-drawing at the beginning of the meetings as an incentive for the audience to attend.) At any rate, most of the people I have talked to about their Adventist baptisms say they were not personal statements of faith. They were simply the entrance sign into the church, and like you, Gilbert, the big reward was that now I could take communion and vote when they admitted new members or transferred others out. In order to explain one last detail of my own baptism, I want to share what Gary Inrig said in a sermon several months ago. He was preaching through the book of Mark, and he came to the story of the blind man who asked for healing. Jesus put spit on the man's eyes and asked him what he saw. "I see people; they look like trees walking around," he answered. Once more Jesus put his hands on the man's eyes, and the man's eyes were opened and he could see clearly (Mark 8:22-26). Gary admitted he had the same question I've always had about this story: why didn't Jesus completely heal the man the first time? He said that the story illustrates the fact that sometimes God brings us to Himself in "stages", not all at once as He did Paul. He pointed out that the book of Mark is actually Peter's gospel, likely dictated to young John Mark by Peter. Gary said that, in a way, this miracle of Jesus' is the story of Peter's conversion. (It's only found in the book of Mark.) He asked, was Peter converted when he said that Jesus was the Son of God, and Jesus told him that knowledge had been given to him by God? What about when he walked on water? Or did Peter come to know who Jesus really was after he denied Him and saw him crucified and then risen from the dead? Gary said he's often wondered exactly when Peter truly believed, truly knew Jesus, and he said he believes that some people, like Peter, come to faith not all at once but rather in steps. This miracle, he believes, illustrates the fact that the Lord Jesus heals some and brings them to faith incrementally. I totally related to his teaching re: this parable. Because here's the rest of the story of my baptism. Before I was baptized and I told my mom I wanted to be, she asked me two things: Do you want to follow Jesus all your life? and Do you want to become part of His remnant church? I said yes to both. But privately, I knew I waned to follow Jesus. Now, I had no idea what that really meant; I believed it meat to be a good Adventist. I did not understand what Jesus had truly done nor who He truly was. But I did understand that in some way, even if diminished, He was part of God, and I wanted to serve God. I remember being horrified when the girl baptized a couple people ahead of me walked past me as I waited in line for my turn and said, "That was fun! I'd like to do it again!" I realized in my limited way that she didn't see her baptism as a sign of anything, and certainly not as any sort of commitment to God. I did believe I was making some sort of commitment to God. After I came out of the water, I had an amazing sense of God's presence with me, and it remained with me for about 24 hours. I knew that no one else understood what I was experiencing, and I couldn't explain nor speak of it, but I "felt" Jesus with me, and I knew He was real and that He loved me. After that "feeling" left, everything continued as before, and I continued in my neurotic obsession about praying for forgiveness, agonizing over unconfessed sins, castigating myself for speaking secular words on Sabbath, even for having a secular song cross my mind during the holy hours... Yet I look back on that, and I know that at my baptism, I did experience a real touch from Jesus. It was really blurry, and I couldn't resolve the truth about Him or about my life. But I've always known that Jesus did meet me, even though it was not a complete "knowing". I know many "formers" do get baptized again because they really did not know Jesus when they were baptized. That is why, for example, Roy was baptized again last Sunday. (He was baptized Adventist when he was 11.) I have personally contemplated it and prayed about it, but I personally believe that God touched me that day, and I knew I wanted to serve Him...whatever that meant. I just had no idea then what that would mean. I was like the man who saw trees walking around—except I'd say it was even less clear than that. It was more like a glimmer of light in a very dark tunnel. But the light was from God. Truly, I didn't experience the veil being ripped away until shortly before we left Adventism. But as I look back, I realize that God was bringing me to Himself in stages, like Peter, perhaps, or like that blind man... So, Gilbert, I believe this is a really personal decision between you and God. Being baptized as a Christian has been a profound event for many formers--many on this forum, in fact. In general, Adventists are not baptized into Christ. As River said above, in general there is no Spirit in Adventist churches, and most Adventists aren't born again. Ask God about it, Gilbert. He'll convict you one way or the other! Colleen | ||
| Markmartin Registered user Username: Markmartin Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2007 |
Gilbert, I'd love to share some thoughts about baptism. Would it be okay with you if I wait until Monday? This Sunday is extra busy. Your experience really touched my heart, --thanks for your transparency. God bless, Pastor Mark | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 803 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen, I can so relate to what you just said. For me, my baptism was nothing trite. It was as sincere a commitment to follow Jesus (now I see that really meant Adventism as defined by the teachings of Ellen White) no matter what. It was all I knew. I had always been a Seventh-day Adventist since birth. This was like making a New Year's Resolution and telling the (Seventh-day Adventist) "world" about it, only it was a once in a lifetime event. Looking back on it, while to me it was a very personal expression from the heart of my desire to "be good", within the Seventh-day Adventist system it is viewed as baptism into Adventism. That's it! Baptism into Adventism, instead of baptism into the Christian body of Christ. They don't view themselves as part of anything! They are the Remnant - God's chosen people with a special message for everyone else who will be lost if they don't become Seventh-day Adventists before their mythical Close of Probation. How sick! How disgusting! I don't know if I can even deal with that emotionally because it is such a travesty! If they had done it to our bodies they would be listed as sex offenders and locked up in prison, but since they did it to our minds they can get away with it. Wow! Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 25 Days since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 804 Registered: 11-2005 |
Pastor Mark,that would be just fine. Thank you so much for your care and concern for each of us. It means so much to us. You are such a blessing. Gilbert |
