| Author | Message | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 120 Registered: 6-2007 |
Tonight is the second night of a bible study my husband and I are attending which covers the old testament. Tonight's reading was Genesis 6-11. As soon as I started reading, I was thinking "what about this, and what about that?". The story was nothing like what I was taught all my life. So I got out my Patriarchs & Prophets book and read the chapter on the flood. I'm speechless! Where did she get all these details? Can someone tell me if it states anywhere in the Bible that Noah preached for 120 years? Genesis says he was 500 when he became a father, and 600 when the flood came. Where did she get the 120 years? Where did she get that he preached? She says Methusalah and his sons helped build the ark. If that were true why weren't they on it? The bible says "God shut him in". She says there was dazzling light and a cloud of glory hovered over the ark. What? Then she goes on to compare the door of the ark being shut to the door of mercy being shut when God ceases His intercession for men. It is making me sick. My husband tells me to put the stupid EGW book away. I want to, but I keep looking in it to see where I got the ideas I had about the bible and I keep finding them there. The bible says nothing about Noah preaching or people laughing at him and mocking him for 120 years. It says nothing about people banging on the door. EGW talks in this chapter about the giants being greatly skilled in using the abundant gold, silver and precious jewels. What? I can't even read the bible without HER being in my head. It makes me furious! I feel like I will never ever be free from the false teachings of the SDA church. I will never uncover the last false thing I was taught. When will it end? I hate it. I hate the fact that I keep looking up things she wrote to find out if that is where I learned what I learned. That is the case every single time, so why do I wonder? I hate it! Can anyone tell me where she got the 120 years and the preaching thing? I would like that part to be true, just so I would not feel so stupid. Laurie | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4353 Registered: 3-2004  |
The only idea I have of where she got her ideas is the "angel" companion she had for so many years and I know that was not God. One simple solution-THROW THE BOOKS AWAY AND READ ONLY THE BIBLE. We so have an awesome God. Diana | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 526 Registered: 11-2004 |
((((Laurie)))) 9 years later I still sometimes discover a EGWism in my head, but as time goes on they are less and less. To me it was helpful to set aside any preconceived ideas/knowledge (as much as possible anyway) and read the Bible as though I was reading it the first time. I learned so much that way. When I was presented with a Bible story or ideas from the Bible I went with the assumption that I didn't know anything for sure until I checked with the Bible. I have spent a lot of time double-checking  But as time goes on that need to double-check lessens. When I discover an EGWism I get angry - angry that she had such an impact on my life and I barely ever read what she wrote. Just yesterday I realized something from Adventism was impacting on a problem I was having. When I realized the correlation I was angry. But then I went to God and He is faithful. He helped me through the situation and one more trace of Adventism has been broken. Praise God! God is faithful and it does get easier. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2182 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hi Laurie! 1. Genesis 6:3 says: "Then the LORD said, 'My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.'" (NASB.) Some people interpret that as how much time there was until the Flood. Others interpet it it to mean that God was reducing man's lifespan to 120 years. That is interesting, though, that, as you pointed out, Noah didn't even have any sons until 100 years before the Flood. So perhaps God did not tell him to build the ark 120 years before the Flood (since He mentioned his sons and their wives). 2. Genesis does not mention anything about Noah preaching. However, in the New Testament, the Apostle Peter writes: "and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;" (2 Peter 2:5 NASB.) However, it does not say that he preached to the wicked, or told them to enter the ark, or even invited them to enter the ark. Notice that in Genesis 6:17-18, God tells Noah: "Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish. 18"But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall enter the ark--you and your sons and your wife, and your sons' wives with you." (NASB.) So, it doesn't say that the wicked were invited into the ark. 3. Methuselah did die in the year of the Flood. Some say that the meaning of his name was that the Flood would come when he died. But it is also possible that he died in the Flood. See: http://www.inplainsite.org/html/methusela_lived_how_long_.html Methuselah's son Lamech (Noah's father) died five years before the Flood. There is no indication in Scripture, however, that Methuselah or his sons had anything to do with the ark. 4. In one place, EGW even claims that an angel shut the door of the ark! 5. You're right that the Bible says nothing about people banging on the ark, or people laughing, mocking, or making fun of Noah in any way, or even that they saw him or the ark. It is silent about these things--in other words, EGW added to the Bible. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 30, 2007) | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 122 Registered: 6-2007 |
Jeremy Yes, that sums it up... she added to the Bible. It is just so hard to get her teaching out of my head. I have never voluntarily read a word of her writings in my life. But 10 years of SDA schooling is hard to undo. I just wish I could read the Bible without the conflicting information coming to my mind. Then I have to go look to see where I got the wrong idea. She is always the source of the misinformation. I hate it. I am really going to make the attempt to do my weekly reading and when the questions come to my mind I will not look it up. I will just go with what the Bible says and know the source of the conflict and let it go. It just makes me so angry to find things time after time, year after year, that I have been taught false information about. I feel like I will never be able to feel I have uncovered all the lies. I want to feel confident about what I believe and how can I do that when I continually discover lies? I feel like it is never ending. It is very discouraging to me. Makes me angry, makes me sad. It makes reading the Bible difficult for me. 10 years of SDA school and 40 plus years of SDA church is hard to undo. I just wish I could uncover every single lie and know there were no more to discover. This has been the hardest part of being a former SDA for me. The continual discovery of lies. I feel like I will never be truly free. Laurie | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4356 Registered: 3-2004 |
Laurie, The enemy of souls knows what buttons to push. Just keep reading the Bible and believe what it says. Diana | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 865 Registered: 11-2005 |
Laurie, Your experience is identical with mine! She says Noah went in to the ark 7 days before the rain. The Bible says the same day. Also check out the story about the tower of Babel. Ellen White added the part about using it to escape another flood! One thing that makes me so mad is that we learned these stories from the Bible story books which also give the EGW version of every thing. You will find these stories in the bible -- the Clear Word Bible, that is! Another really bizarre thing I am now documenting. Ellen states in some places that 666 is the number of the beast. In one place she says 666 is the number of the image to the beast!
I have run across a number of similarly bizarre statements. I am currently working on putting together a side-by-side analysis of each of these including the Clear Word rendition. These will be posted on http://beyondadventism.com Gilbert | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6906 Registered: 12-2003  |
Laurie, I SO relate!!!! I actively prayed that God would help me read the Bible without an "Ellen overlay", and it took years before the Ellenisms didn't automatically cloud my thoughts. Also, praying for God to remove the spirit of Adventism and replace it in my heart with the Holy Spirit where it had been helped. Just today I had an "A-ha" re: an Ellenism: our pastor preached on Mark 11:1-11: Jesus' triumphal entry. He pointed out that Jesus, in the tradition of the Roman "triumphs" staged for conquering generals and rulers, rode into Jerusalem and deliberately drew the public's attention to Himself. However, unlike honored generals or kings, he rode a previously unridden donkey colt. The paradox, Gary said, was that He commanded attention in a traditional way, but he was the "donkey king". He rode the animal of the common, undignified everyman, not the stallion war horse of the kings and rulers. He was a different kind of king, and His kingdom was of a far different nature. On the way home Richard reminded me that we had learned Jesus rode a donkey into Jerusalem because it was the traditional animal ridden by kings. I found Ellen's quote in the Desire of Ages: Christ was following the Jewish custom for a royal entry. The animal on which He rode was that ridden by the kings of Israel, and prophecy had foretold that thus the Messiah should come to His kingdom. (ch. 63, DA) I also looked up "donkey" using BlueLetterBible.org, and there were no references to donkeys being ridden by Israelite or other kings. Where on EARTH did she come up with THAT?? Another Ellenism... Colleen | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 244 Registered: 10-2006 |
Laurie, There's nothing wrong with you. EGW was crazy, a real nut job. steve | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 170 Registered: 4-2005 |
It was also fulfilling prophecy in Zec 9:9 about riding on the colt of a donkey--I have just been going over Sabbath in Christ again, and have been interested in all the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled. We have so much to learn, and I think of the people who were brought up in other churches who take all this so for granted and we have to sift and measure. Better now than never, I am really so thankful for the opportunity! I I threw away, or got rid of all the "red" books long ago. I don't think I have one around and I don't think about Ellen much--I have dismissed her--that may be the wrong attitude but I hope not. Peggy | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 869 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen, Here is some additional information for you: In bible times they were called "asses". In "Manners and Customs of Bible Lands" by Fred H. Wight, its states on page 260-261: Riding the donkey not considered a mark of humility. Rich people and important people rode on this animal. Of Abraham Scripture records that "he rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass" (Gen 22:3). Concerning one of the judges it was said, "and after him arose Jair, a Gileadite, and judged Israel twenty and two years. And he had thirty sons that rode thirty ass colts, and they had thirty cities" (Judges 10:3, 4). also Achsah, the daughter of Caleb (Judges 1:14), and abagail, the wife of wealthy Nabal (I Sam. 25:23), each road on an ass. The donkey used for riding. Before the tenth century B.C. it was used more than any other animal for this purpose. at that time, the mule came into use, expecially among the rich, but the donkey has continued to be in use by many through the years. (Reference: Edwin C. Bissell, Biblical Antiquities, page 117.) White donkeys were used by persons of high rank. "Speak ye that ride on white asses, ye that sit in judgement, and walk by the way" (Judges 5:10). These white donkeys are used today in many places in the East by people of high social standing. They are usually larger animals and are supposed to be swifter. (Reference: J. G. Wood, Bible Animals, page 264-267.) The donkey used as a symbol of peace-times. The horse has usually symbolized times of war, but the donkey, times of peace. In Old Testament times this was especially true from the days of King Solomon. This fact helps to explain the words of the prophet about the Messiah that were fulfilled in the triumphant entrance of Jesus into Jerusalem: "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even a colt the foal of an ass" (Zech. 9:9; cf. John 12:15). Here the use by Jesus of the donkey was to signify that He was the Prince of Peace, rather than Captain of an army, when He entered the Holy City." (Reference: Edwin C. Bissell, Biblical Antiquities, page 117.) ================================ Next we will compare Desire of Ages with William Hannah's, Life of Christ. Fred Veltman, studying 15 chapters in Desire of Ages, found that Daniel March had been used 129 times. If the average for the other chapters was the same as for these, then Daniel March was used in Desire of Ages 748 times. In the 15 chapters studied by Veltman, Daniel March was used 129 times, and William Hannah was used 321 times. This means that in just one book (Desire of Ages), Hannah was used an estimated 1,862 times, and Hannah + March were used over twenty-six hundred times. http://www.ex-sda.com/5a-notec.htm Desire of Ages: Christ was following the Jewish custom for a royal entry. The animal on which He rode was that ridden by the kings of Israel, and prophecy had foretold that thus the Messiah should come to His kingdom. No sooner was He seated upon the colt than a loud shout of triumph rent the air. The multitude hailed Him as Messiah, their King. Jesus now accepted the homage which He had never before permitted, and the disciples received this as proof that their glad hopes were to be realized by seeing Him established on the throne. The multitude were convinced that the hour of their emancipation was at hand. In imagination they saw the Roman armies driven from Jerusalem, and Israel once more an independent nation. All were happy and excited; the people vied with one another in paying Him homage. They could not display outward pomp and splendor, but they gave Him the worship of happy hearts. They were unable to present Him with costly gifts, but they spread their outer garments as a carpet in His path, and they also strewed the leafy branches of the olive and the palm in the way. They could lead the triumphal procession with no royal standards, but they cut down the spreading palm boughs, Nature's emblem of victory, and waved them aloft with loud acclamations and hosannas. {DA 570.1} ===================== Life of Christ - William Hannah http://books.google.com/books?id=Rr44AAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA4&vq=colt&dq=editions:0aoTKBwlDw-__f4XFJ#PRA1-PA4,M1 The disciples listen with wonder to these instructions. It is but a short distance into the town—an hour's walk, or less ; it cannot be through weariness that Jesus wishes to have an ass to ride upon. He had seldom if ever before used this mode of travelling, one not having any special dignity in our eyes, but one that highest dignitaries in the East, kings and princes, prophets and priests, might not unsuitably, upon the most important occasions, make use of. Can it be that the hour so long waited for has come? Can it be that Jesus is about to throw off his disguise, assume his regal rank and character, and enter the capital as the King of the Jews? and priests, might not unsuitably, upon the • Page 4 ============================= Now that you have all of that let me give you a little additional background. My oldest daughter (26) specializes in raising donkeys. When she was about 15 we purchased some sheep. Then we purchased a BLM donkey to protect the sheep from stray dogs. She enjoy Sissy, the BLM donkey so much that she purchased bigger and bigger donkeys -- mammoth jackstock. She writes a column for the two leading mule and donkey magazines. She has a genealogy database of over 55,000 donkeys that we are bringing online within the next month. She owns LongearsMall.com (http://longearsmall.com/) with about 900 customers, as well as another website, Sagebrush Ranch (http://sbr.longearsmall.com/). SBR represents her herd as well as other services and products that she offers. She still lives here at home because we have the acreage for her to pasture all of her animals. She offers donkey training for people's donkeys and their owners. I don't know how many she has now but I believe she has eight donkeys across three pastures. If you go to http://sbr.longearsmall.com/donk.htm you will see a white donkey like royalty rode in Bible times. He is called "White Knight". http://sbr.longearsmall.com/knight.htm All of her donkeys are top show quality. Oklahoma Andy (http://sbr.longearsmall.com/andy.htm) is a two time World Champion Race Donkey in the Donkey Race at Bishop Mule Days (2002 & 2003). Bishop Mule Days is the top international event in the world for mules and donkeys. In local parades Andy tries to pass up the horses. There are lots of pictures for you to enjoy. We have encouraged each of our three children to develop and pursue their interests. Karen, 19, is a real estate agent. I am currently working with Peter, 12, on building a Zenithair CH701 2-place kit plane. Back to donkeys... Kristie said that in Bible times that the royalty road donkeys in times of peace, and horses in times of war. That is consistent with William Hannah's narrative. I have no idea where Ellen got her narrative from. It is probably safe to assume that it is a patchwork of sources. When she combined them she ended up with oddities like confusing the two Herods. Yes. Ellen does have a lot of very nice narrative. My recommendation is for people to go to her sources, such as Hannah, Edersheim, March, etc. I buy their original books from amazon or ebay used books. The books are beautiful, and the reading delightful. Do you want to know another interesting tidbit. Do you know how Ellen writes all about the people clambering on the outside of the ark, climbing to higher ground, etc. And yet the bible is silent about that. If you go to Alfred Edersheim's Bible History: Old Testament (http://philologos.org/__eb-bhot/), he notes that the Bible is silent about this, and then conjectures about the very things that Ellen filled in! See http://philologos.org/__eb-bhot/vol_I/ch06.htm
Gilbert | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6914 Registered: 12-2003 |
Interesting, Gilbert. Yes, I know that "ass" is the word used in the KJV--I looked up "donkey" in the NIV version, so I did find all those texts from the OT. It's interesting that the donkey is associated with peace and horses with war. That makes sense. It is interesting, though, that in the Zechariah passage quoted in John, it points out that Jesus was "lowly": "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even a colt the foal of an ass" (Zech. 9:9; cf. John 12:15). Further, the animal he rode was not a broken animal but a colt, one never before ridden. You make a good point about finding the original sources instead of trying to figure out exactly what Ellen was saying! Colleen | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 484 Registered: 12-2004 |
WOW Gilbert | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 612 Registered: 7-2000 |
Thanks so much for posting the links to books by Hannah and Edersheim. I've been searching for Hannahs' book online and hadn't found it. Anything written by Edershiem is bound to be a favorite of mine. As I've begun reading extensively of these 19th century authors that wrote when EGW lived, I'm recognizing just where she got so much of her information. I still use my SDA study Bible as there is more room for notes than any other Bible I've ever found. The Bible has EGW commentary on many passages of Scripture. I often find myself reading one and saying 'that sounds like something from (fill in the blank).' That white donkey is a fine looking animal. How many hands high is he and how much weight can he hold? I've been around the little brown, BLM donks. I weigh about 210, and they don't like it much when I climb onboard! | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 873 Registered: 11-2005 |
Loneviking, I asked my daughter about White Knight. She said he is 3-1/2 years old and 14 hands tall at the shoulders. He currently weighs 800 lbs, and when full grown will weigh about 1000 lbs. She said her largest is Bentley (http://sbr.longearsmall.com/bentley.htm). He is 5 years old and 15 hands (60") high at the shoulders. He weighs 1000 lbs. He's like a big baby. I go out there, and he follows me around like a puppy dog. They are so loving, and really enjoy getting the insides of their ears rubbed. Kristie went over to Israel on a choir trip about six years ago. She said over there the donkeys are the size of BLM donkeys here, but they load them down with huge loads and damage their backs and legs so they don't live as long. She said here in the US the rule of thumb is that an equine should not carry more than 1/4th its weight, so White Knight could carry 200 lbs right now. Bentley could carry 250 lbs. Gilbert |
