| Author | Message | ||
| Jamundson Registered user Username: Jamundson Post Number: 43 Registered: 7-2007 |
The last time I posted here I mentioned the controversy I was having with my SDA FIL. It became a huge battle and finally my wife insisted that the two bulls back off and go back to there respective corners and shut up. I was amazed at my lack of ability to persuade him on anything. Nadda, nothing. I was eloquent (so I thought). I barrowed (plagiarized ) extensively from some of you here to bolster my position......to no avail. I have been, frankly, depressed and as my wife would tell you very irritable about this. I know with out a shadow of a doubt that the peculiarly SDA doctrinal beliefs are wrong and I have failed miserably to make a dent in them. But now a new battle (opps.....opportunity) has surfaced and I want to take up the flag and go forth.....sigh....well maybe In a recent letter to my SDA (PHD) brother the subject of the antichrist came up. He responded with a standard SDA position (Papacy) and I responded with a countering view. This launched an expected response but now he has enlisted my other two brothers, both staunch SDA (one is a minister) to counter and persuade me of my error. I do enjoy the debate but if it cannot succeed in piercing the veil I fear the result will be the same as the FIL experience. I am now engaging 3 very smart people and frankly I have the least brain cells of the 4 brothers. Of course we have the HS and the truth of Scripture but we all know that "truth" is subjective to Adventist not objective. Specifically I would like to ask for some back up if any one is so inclined. I have a very active business and often cannot take the time to research and compose an effective dialog. I can copy and past but I have found more is needed. If not, then please pray for Wally,Rene, and Ron to receive a lifting of the veil and to see the freedom in the Spirit that you all now know, and for me to receive wisdom from above Jay | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4403 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jay, From what I have seen here and on CARM, what we formers say, quote looks like it does not do a thing. We can present what the Bible says and the SDA will counter with their twist on it and at times it is a real twist. So, Ask God for the help of the Holy Spirit. They will do the convincing and convicting. All we do is plant the seed. We cannot convince anyone that does not want to be convinced. I am not saying this to discourage you. It may just end up like your FIL. So, I will add the FIL and your brothers to my prayer list. That is Wally, Rene, and Ron. God is working on each one, even when we cannot see it. And when it comes to a point like your FIL, just be friends. My oldest sister will have nothing to do with God/religion/faith, but she and I get along well because we love and respect each other and do not tread on each others boundaries. Father in Heaven, You are the I AM and I thank you for that. I thank you for Jesus. Because of Him we can call you Father. I bring Jay's brothers-Rene, Wally, Ron and his FIL to you and ask that you remove the veil so they can see you and Jesus as you really are. Thank you God for doing this. As always, You are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 344 Registered: 7-2005  |
Jay, in answer to your heartfelt call for help, I have something to offer. I, like you, have felt that my efforts to present the truth have failed miserably. It has helped me to think of this situation like a Chinese finger puzzle. I hope you know what that is, but if not, I'll try to describe it. You can buy them at party shops and teacher supply stores. They are cheap little party favors for kids. They're made of pliable woven reed-like material in the shape of a tube. You put each of your index fingers into opposite ends of the tube and they try to pull them out. BUT...the tube reshapes itself around your fingers trapping them inside. The only way to get your fingers out is to do exactly the opposite of what feels normal. You PUSH your fingers together, instead of pulling them in opposite directions, and the tube loosens and you can work them back out. The concept of doing the exact opposite of what seems right is what I'm getting at with confrontations over doctrine. Not that we should agree with the wrong doctrine, but rather that we should refrain from making assertions of what our beliefs are. Rather, we ask clarifying questions and invite the other person to explain their doctrine, or supply reasons why they believe what they do. After we're clear on what they're actually asserting, we then take that assertion to it's ultimate, but logical, conclusion and show them the absurdity of their beliefs. I am learning about this from a series of teaching messages by Greg Koukl, called "Tactics for Defending the Faith." You can see his web site at www.str.org. In my opinion, he's brilliant. I've listened to the entire set of 5 messages almost three times now and plan to listen over and over until it becomes second nature to interact with non-Christians (or Adventists) the way he recommends. He says that when you ask questions instead of making assertions, you're respectfully inviting the other person to an interactive dialog in which they are given the opportunity of being asked their opinion and having it listened to attentively. This happens so rarely, he says, that people really can't resist sharing their hearts with you. Then he suggests you can ask further questions to encourage the other person to give reasons why they believe what they do. After you listen carefully and are able to state back to them accurately what they are asserting, you are then able to ask further questions to help them to see that their thinking is absurd when taken to its ultimate conclusion. An example he gives is the young woman who told him she didn't believe in abortion herself, because she could never kill a baby, but said she couldn't support anti-abortion legislation. He asked her why she wouldn't want to keep other people from killing babies, if she believed it was wrong for herself to kill babies. She responded that there are many things to consider on this issue. He asked her what kind of consideration would make it all right to kill a baby. To which she answered that incest would make it all right. Then asked her to imagine he had a two-year old child standing next to him and asked her, "So, if this two-year old was conceived in incest, you are saying I should be free to kill this child?" Naturally, she couldn't agree to that. So he effectively got her to at least start thinking about the ramifications of her belief system, and he did it without making any assertions himself. I highly recommend this series of messages for anyone who plans to interact with SDAs in any way that might involve discussing differences in doctrine. Honestwitness (Message edited by honestwitness on October 18, 2007) |
