| Author |
Message |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 1257
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 5:51 am: |     |
Yes. Ellen's priorities were really mixed up!
In my original source pages those quotes are all indented and block quoted -- which makes it easy to tell which are quotes and which are commentary. One thing that is extremely frustrating (and why I don't post as much as I otherwise would) is that a copy-and-paste from any rich-text source (such as my reference material) to a text-only input box completely looses the formatting, eg bolded text, indents, block quotes, embedded graphics, highlighting, embedded links, and so on.
Here is a perfect example regarding Ellen White's stating, among other things, that the purpose of the tower was to escape another flood, as well as to "discover reasons for the flood." My source material is found at http://exposingadventism.com/content/organization/clear-word-bible/verses/gen11_1-9.php . With a graphically-based input box (such as CARM uses) the formatting and embedded images of the Bible Stories series copies-and-pastes. Text only input boxes left-justify everything and looses all of that.
This whole story of the Tower of Babel being built to escape a flood is another Ellenism that has no biblical basis.
The following excerpt is a fascinating tidbit!
---- Read the following in the original source material ----
The first assertion demonstrates the height of absurdity. Genesis 7:19-20 states:
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
For Ellen White's account to make any sense at all, the tower of Babel, built on the plain of Shinar, would have had to have been built taller than the highest mountain in the world after the flood! Mt. Everest is 29,000 feet high. Mt. Ararat (where Noah's ark landed) is 16,854 feet. By comparison, the world's tallest building, Burj Dubai in Dubai, United Arab Emirates, is 12% the height of Mt. Ararat, at 2,063 feet. Perhaps Ellen White's vivid imagination was fueled by her vinegar (plus hard wiskey) addiction that almost killed her.
---------------------------------
Another function we need is the ability to easily copy someone's prior post, break it apart, and respond to it piece-by-piece.
[A formatted copy, complete with embedded links, of this thought for today can be found at http://exposingadventism.com/blogs/gjorgensen/egw/1844/adventisms-conundrum/ ]
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 1692
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 8:01 am: | |
Akweaver wrote, "Hmm I am continually amazed at the nonsense I discover everyday from this cult I was in for 46 years. I think they are in some type of alternate world where wrong=right."
I think that about sums it up. Jesus is everything becomes Jesus plus everything. Grace becomes something you get only if you do everything right. God's work in you becomes your work for God. God's omnipotence becomes God's impotence without us, and so on and so on. It's an alternate universe alright, and 'another gospel.' |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 1258
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 8:39 am: | |
SDA Pastor Kevin Morgan explained it this way, "Jesus is good, but God offers us so much more." That was an exact quote he made on CARM.
And then Adventists don't want Adventism to be classified as a cult?
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 1259
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 8:47 am: | |
Consider the following:
[You need to go to http://exposingadventism.com/content/facts/christ_adventist-jesus.php to get the formatting and bolded text.]
Exposing Adventism - The Adventist Jesus
As I read this I get the distinct impression that "Desire of Ages" is promoting a totally different message from the Bible -- a message of a weak and struggling Jesus. Doesn't the Bible teach that the battle was won at the cross? Where is the majesty and power of God? Instead Ellen White seems to glorify Satan. As Christians, we know from our Bibles that there never was any contest between God and Satan. Our God is omnipotent. Satan is just a created being!
Quote:
There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one. The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary, yet it is nonetheless true that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (SDA bible Commentary, Vol 5, p. 1129)
Quote:
"The worlds unfallen and the heavenly angels had watched with intense interest as the conflict drew to its close. Satan and his confederacy of evil, the legions of apostasy, watched intently this great crisis in the work of redemption." (Desire of Ages, page 693)
Quote:
"We are a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. The whole universe is looking with inexpressible interest to see the closing work of the great controversy between Christ and Satan." (Testimonies, vol. 5, page 526)
Quote:
"…a shout of triumph rang through every world and through heaven itself. The great contest that had been so long in progress in this world was now decided, and Christ was conqueror." (Patriarchs and Prophets, page70)
Quote:
"In swearing by the creator, the angel who is Christ, swore by himself" (Bible Commentary vol. 7, p. 798)
Quote:
"To Christ had been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father" (Testimonies vol. 8, p. 268)
Quote:
"The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son...The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself." (Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1, pp. 17, 18)
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 1260
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 8:49 am: | |
John 10:30."I and my Father are one." KJV
John 10:30 "You see,my Father and I are so close, we’re one."The Clear Word
In the KJV (and other translations in my library), Jesus is declaring that his nature and essence is exactly the same as the Father’s. He is telling us,"I am the Lord, your God!"
Dr.Blanco, on the other hand, changes the emphasis and meaning of this verse from that which unabashedly declares Christ’s claim to oneness in deity with the Father, to that which declares that the reason for oneness was not based on essence, but rather on their relationship."
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 1261
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 8:47 am: | |
http://exposingadventism.com/content/facts/salvation_jesus-did-not-die-to-bring-us-salvation.php (for bolded text)
Exposing Adventism - Jesus did not die to bring us salvation
Seventh-day Adventism teaches:
Death entered the world because of transgression. But Christ gave His life that man should have another trial. He did not die on the cross to abolish the law of God, but to secure for man a second probation. He did not die to make sin an immortal attribute; He died to secure the right to destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. He suffered the full penalty of a broken law for the whole world. This He did, not that men might continue in transgression, but that they might return to their loyalty and keep God's commandments and His law as the apple of their eye. (Testimonies to Ministers, p. 134)
Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law" (Review and Herald, vol. 71, No. 35, p. 1, August 28, 1894.)
Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. (Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 6, p. 1118)
At this time in the history of the world, we should have but one object in view--to gain eternal life. Every other desire should be subordinate to this. The work of regeneration must go on in every soul until perfection of character is reached; for nothing short of this will meet the mind of God." (Manuscript 119, 1899, p. 1;"Words to Parents," August 21, 1899; 5MR 338.2)
Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all his precepts. (Manuscript 122, 1901, quoted in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 6, p. 1118).
To every one who surrenders fully to God is given the privilege of living without sin, in obedience to the law of heaven. ... God requires of us perfect obedience. We are to purify ourselves, even as he is pure. By keeping his commandments, we are to reveal our love for the Supreme Ruler of the universe. (Review and Herald, September 27, 1906, p. 8).
The Bible teaches:
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 (KJV)
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 1262
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 8:53 am: | |
http://exposingadventism.com/content/facts/salvation_what-the-cross-means-to-the-adventist.php
Exposing Adventism - What the cross means to the Adventist
What the cross means to the Adventist
Adventism teaches that Christ's death on the cross was NOT sufficient for our salvation. When Jesus said, "It is finished:, he was just referring to His death.
Adventism teaches that Jesus made the down payment on the cross, and it is up to you to make the monthly installment payments. A review of those installment payments began in 1844, but only the Seventh-day Adventist Church has been told this. |
Martinc
Registered user
Username: Martinc
Post Number: 61
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 5:11 pm: | |
No Gilbert, I want the real Adventist IJ calculator, you know, the one in the vault that can calculate how 158 years ago, the IJ was half finished. I think it works like this:
In six years, it's half done. In 12 years, 3/4 done; in 24 years, 7/8 done. So, in the year 2036, after 192 years, it will be 63/64 finished.
As you can see, we have an infinite progression at work. So, hurry and get ready.
(Message edited by MartinC on October 23, 2008) |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 1263
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 5:53 pm: | |
Martinc, is it "infinite progression" or "infinite regression"? <grin>
If we consider that the earth's population is growing right now at about 67 million people per year, Adventist growth is actually gowing backwards by comparison.
If I remember correctly the "churn rate" in Seventh-day Adventism for 1996-2000 was 27% (exceeded only by the Jehovah's Witnesses at 32%). A friend told me the other day that he read the SDA "churn rate" for 2001-2005 was 34%.
I would not be at all suprised. Adventism is desperate to list as many people "on the books" as possible. Many are dead or not active. Growth is taking place primarily in impoverished countries where joining any denomination that markets themselves as Christian is viewed as a way to escape the endless cycle of poverty.
Of all the young people that I know that were raised as Adventists I suspect that perhaps 20% are active Adventists. Adventism;s cultic doctrines are irrelevant to the rest. It can only offer "hope". There is no assurance of salvation, no "Good News."
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Martinc
Registered user
Username: Martinc
Post Number: 64
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 10:20 pm: | |
Yes, you're right, it is an infinite regression. The last unlucky person's investigation could take longer than the entire age of the earth.
Fascinating "churn rate" statistics there. It sounds like Adventism has the same target population as Islam. Are the SDAs more aggressive in penetrating the poorest countries? In that way, the poor would get poorer. We need to bring them real hope. |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 208
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 4:51 am: | |
Is the Investigative Judgment an Adventist Purgatory?
On an other forum there is a discussion regarding a former Adventist couple, Arthur and Teresa Beem, authors of a book ‘It’s OK to not be an Adventist’, who joined the RCC.
(see: www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/SeriesSearchprog.asp?SeriesID=-6892289)
In the course of the conversation a reference was made to a John MacArthur sermon about the RCC, the following paragraph sparked the title of this post.
“Motivated by money, it has invented Purgatory (IJ). And by the way, Purgatory (IJ) is what makes the whole system work. Take out Purgatory (IJ) and it's a hard sell to be a Catholic (Adventist). People hang in there because of the deception of Purgatory (IJ). Purgatory (IJ) is the safety net, when you die, you don't go to hell. You go there and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven if you've been a good Catholic (Adventist). Take away that safety net, that's a hard sell because in the Catholic (Adventist) system you can never know you're saved, you can never know you're going to heaven. You just keep trying and trying, as the priest (Ellen?) said on the television program the other night, we are all engaged in a long journey toward perfection. Well if you're engaged in a long journey toward perfection, it's pretty discouraging. People in that system (Adventist), guilt-ridden, fear-ridden, no knowledge of whether or not they're going to get into the Kingdom, the threat of a mortal sin which throws you back out again. And the only thing that makes it work is Purgatory (IJ). If there's no Purgatory (IJ), there's no safety net to catch me and give me some opportunity to get into heaven. It's a second chance, it's another chance after death. I can't buy into this. So they had to invent Purgatory. It's just too much without it.”
(see: www.gty.org/Resources/Transcripts/90-291)
Any similarities?
John Douglas |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 8938
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 11:35 am: | |
There are many similarities, John. The biggest difference I see is that purgatory happens to Catholics after they're dead; the IJ happens to Adventists while they're still alive (well, physically alive, anyway!). What a way to live,huh? Catholics at least have the "hope" of purgatory later...
Oh, and Catholics can pay and pray to get their loved ones hurried through. I know that indulgences technically disappeared, but for sure the living can facilitate their loved one's time in purgatory. Adventists just plod through the IJ without any hope of help...
Any way you look at it, purgatory and the IJ are the defining doctrines that emphasize the centrality of the individual's sanctification. No matter haw they parse the words, both systems require individual perfection that is NOT imputed from God Himself but is achieved by each person. In other words, each system requires righteousness from each person, not an alien righteousness from God that covers each person.
Colleen |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 384
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 9:00 am: | |
Gilbert
Your comment above about the churn rate for Adventism is very interesting. I had always heard that Jehovah's Witnesses had the highest turnover rate of any religion in North America.
I'd like to find the source for this data, but am not sure where to begin. Do any readers (perhaps former SDA employees) here have the source?
Bob |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 1418
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 12:32 pm: | |
During the July 2005 SDA General Conference, Bert Haloviak, director of Archives and Statistics for the Adventist world church, made the following statement:…nearly 1.5 million left membership during the time period 2000 to 2005. The bottom line for this quinquennium is that for every 100 accessions, more than 35 others decided to leave. That total is considerably more than the 24 subtracted for every 100 added as reported at our last session in 2000… The Internet has made information accessible to people worldwide who are seeking for the answers to their questions about Adventism.
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 6069
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 12:38 pm: | |
YEAH FOR THE INTERNET. Do I hear loud applause??
Our awesome God is calling His sheep and they are answering and following Him.
Diana L |
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