| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1248 Registered: 11-2005 |
[A formatted copy, complete with embedded links, of this thought for today can be found at http://exposingadventism.com/blogs/gjorgensen/egw/1844/adventisms-conundrum/ ] Adventism’s Conundrum October 22nd, 2008 "It has been 164 Years since October 22, 1844" – so our trusty 1844 counter at the top of each weblog page here at ExposingAdventism.com tells us. Leading SDA "1844" expert Clifford Goldstein reveals to us in his seminal publication "1844 Made Simple" these enlightening truths: I never realized, until then, just how much of our [Adventist] message is linked to 1844. p. 8 If 1844 is not biblical, Ellen White belonged in the same class as Mary Baker Eddy, and Joseph Smith. p. 8 Simple logic told me that if 1844 is not biblical, Adventism is a cult. p. 9 A few weeks later, I was finished [with my study]. My conclusion: If you were to use the Old testament — without — the New — you would have as much evidence for an investigative judgment as you would for Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah! p. 9 The 1844 judgment — more than the state of the dead, the Sabbath, the second coming — establishes the validity of Adventism. p. 10 You probably haven’t heard a sermon on it [1844 and the investigative judgment] or read about it in years. p 11 But if you are not grounded in the 1844 doctrine — if you don’t have at least a rudimentary understanding of that teaching — then you are ill-prepared for the time of trouble and the shaking. p. 11 The 1844 investigative judgment, the theological pillar of our movement, sits as a dusty relic in the Adventist family closet. p. 12 How clever of the devil to have us set aside our most basic doctrine. p. 12 The 1844 teaching gives irrefutable assurance that Adventism is the truth for this time. p. 12 This book … has been written to present the doctrine of the 1844 investigative judgment in the simplest and clearest manner possible, in the belief that an understanding of that doctrine is crucial not only to an understanding of Adventism, but crucial for our people to be prepared to meet the coming crisis. p. 13 Some argue that Ellen White was not a theologian, and therefore no good for theology. I suppose, in a classical sense of the word, she wasn’t a theologian — she was a prophet! p. 13 Don’t use Ellen White to get solid on the Bible. Get solid on the Bible, and you will get solid on her. Base 1844 on the Bible, and you’ll stand unmovable on Ellen White. Use her as your base for 1844, and both will crumble. p. 13 Since the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches that "The 1844 judgment — more than the state of the dead, the Sabbath, the second coming — establishes the validity of Adventism.", one would think that they would be using today for an uprecedented media blitz to remind a lost world that Adventism alone is God’s repository of last-day truth. Adventism holds the keys for determining when Christ’s Second Coming occurs. Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law" (Review and Herald, vol. 71, No. 35, p. 1, August 28, 1894.) Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God’s commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. (Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 6, p. 1118) At this time in the history of the world, we should have but one object in view–to gain eternal life. Every other desire should be subordinate to this. The work of regeneration must go on in every soul until perfection of character is reached; for nothing short of this will meet the mind of God." (Manuscript 119, 1899, p. 1;"Words to Parents," August 21, 1899; 5MR 338.2) "Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ is perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own." (Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 69) "When the character of Christ is perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own." Then, and not until then. In the meantime, Christ is held hostage by the Seventh-day Adventist Church. What is Adventism doing today to remind people of God’s unique calling, and this very special anniversary date? Adventist News Network is oddly silent on this very important day. "It has been 164 Years since October 22, 1844" There is no mention anywhere of this so important date, 1844. The date that, to Adventism — more than the state of the dead, the Sabbath, the second coming — establishes the validity of Adventism. Why? Instead the feature headline at Adventist Network News today is "Church budget adjusts for tough financial times." "It has been 164 Years since October 22, 1844" So what exactly has been going on these past 164 years? In 1850 Seventh-day Adventism’s "Pen of Inspiration" wrote that the Investigative Judgment, beginning in 1844, was over half done. I saw that the time for Jesus to be in the Most Holy Place was nearly finished, and that time cannot last but a very little longer; and what leisure time we have should be spent in searching the Bible, which is to judge us in the last day. Experience and Views (1850), page 46 Let the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ be in your minds continually, and let them crowd worldly thoughts and cares from the mind. When you lie down and when you rise up let them be your meditation. Live and act wholly in reference to the coming of the Son of man. The sealing time is very short, and soon will be over. Experience and Views (1850), page 47 Said my accompanying angel, "Time is almost finished. Do ye reflect the lovely image of Jesus as ye should?" Then I was pointed to the earth, and saw that there would have to be a getting ready among those who have of late embraced the third angel’s message. Said the angel, "Get ready, get ready, get ready. Ye will have to die a greater death to the world than ye have ever yet died." I saw that there was a great work to do for them, and but little time to do it in. Experience and Views (1850), page 52 I saw that some of us have had time to get the truth, and to advance step by step, and every step we have taken has given us strength to take the next. But now time is almost finished, and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months. And they will have to unlearn much, and learn again. And those who will not receive the mark of the beast and his image, when the decree goes forth, must have decision now to say, nay, we will not regard the institution of the beast. Experience and Views (1850), page 55 So let’s use our Adventist calculators to do the math. If by 1850 the Investigative Judgment was only one-half done, that would be six years. Another six years would bring us to completion by 1856. That was still 152 years ago! "It has been 164 Years since October 22, 1844" Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 59 Registered: 9-2006 |
Gilbert, I have searched the web in vain for an Adventist calculator. Google had only six entries for my query and none had anything to do with 1844. I was very disappointed. Maybe it was discontinued and someone here needs to develop the software for it. Even so, thank you for the encouraging reminder of the fast receding investigative judgment. October 22 was the day my wife and I left the SDA church for good. I like October 22 even more than before. Now, Ellen White stated that until the character of Christ is perfectly reproduced in His people, He cannot come. Does this mean that the frequency of cases being reviewed is decelerated or accelerated in proportion to the rate of overcoming sin? Is the review frequency reduced each succeeding year by a mysterious formula? Can our time be extended by the eating of forbidden foods or breaking the Sabbath? Can we buy time by sinning? Or is the end of the IJ a fixed date, and the "waiting" happens elsewhere? If Adventists continue to "hold Christ hostage," and the investigations must continue without stopping, how do they avoid the possibility of a closed probation in which no one is fit for heaven? Yet another disappointment. Could we demand a mistrial? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1691 Registered: 8-2004  |
Also, if the sins just now being added have yet to be calculated, how could they have been paid for by Christ's death two thousand years ago? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 5917 Registered: 3-2004  |
The Bible tells me our sins will be put in the depths of the sea. Some places we cannot find the bottom of the sea. It also says as far as the east is from the west that is how far our sins are from us. Now, it does not say only sins before a certain time or after a certain time. It says ALL our sins. I know I am preaching to the choir. Just thought I would throw that out for any seeking, lurking SDA. We love you and want you to know God's truth. He is always awesome. Diana L | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1250 Registered: 11-2005 |
Martinc, if you go to the weblog reference, or the ExposingAdventism.com homepage .. any of my pages that show the elapsed time since 1844 ... and save the HTML page to your local harddisk you will see that I use an embedded Javascript routine to calculate the time. You're welcome to pull a copy off and improve on it. Have fun! "It has been 164 Years since October 22, 1844" – so our trusty 1844 counter at the top of each weblog page here at ExposingAdventism.com tells us. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1251 Registered: 11-2005 |
Perhaps the delay is due to other factors. There seems to be some confusion as to whether the angels are "judging" our actions when they decide to write us up in the little books Ellen White states that they are carrying around for the purpose, or if like Scripture says, we will judge the angels. It's all very confusing. ==== Imagine block quotes here ==== Ellen White tells us: …we have fixed our minds upon the exceeding great and precious reward; and, in order to obtain it, we must have a perfect character. The angels of God are watching the development of character. Angels of God are weighing moral worth; and we are to obtain a fitness here to join the society of sinless angels. Do you expect that when Christ comes He will give you that fitness? Not at all. You must be found of Him without spot, without blemish, or wrinkle, or anything like it. Now is the watching and trying time. Now it is the time to obtain a preparation to abide the day of His coming, and to stand when He appeareth. (Review and Herald, April 19, 1870.) Here is presented before us the great and solemn day when the Judgment is to sit and the books are to be opened, and the dead are to be judged according to the things written in the books. We must all meet the unerring record of our lives written in the books on high. We are probationers, on trial. God is testing us to see what kind of characters we will develop in this life. Angels of God are weighing moral worth. Our heavenly Father has sent us a message warning us of the fast-hastening Judgment, that we may prepare for that day of final reckoning.Here is presented before us the great and solemn day when the Judgment is to sit and the books are to be opened, and the dead are to be judged according to the things written in the books. We must all meet the unerring record of our lives written in the books on high. We are probationers, on trial. God is testing us to see what kind of characters we will develop in this life. Angels of God are weighing moral worth. Our heavenly Father has sent us a message warning us of the fast-hastening Judgment, that we may prepare for that day of final reckoning. (Signs of the Times, 1887, Article 15) At the time appointed for the Judgment--the close of the 2300 days, in 1844--began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins. All who have ever taken upon themselves the name of Christ must pass its searching scrutiny. Both the living and the dead are to be judged "out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." ... How solemn is the thought! Day after day, passing into eternity, bears its burden of records for the books of Heaven. Words once spoken, deeds once done, can never be recalled. Angels have registered both the good and the evil. The mightiest conqueror upon the earth cannot call back the record of even a single day. Our acts, our words, even our most secret motives, all have their weight in deciding our destiny for weal or woe. Though they may be forgotten by us, they will bear their testimony to justify or to condemn. (Great Controversy, 1888, p. 486) I saw that we are now in the shaking time. Satan is working with all his power to wrest souls from the hand of Christ and cause them to trample underfoot the Son of God. An angel slowly and emphatically repeated these words: "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Character is being developed. Angels of God are weighing moral worth. God is testing and proving His people. (Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 429) Angels of God are watching the development of character. Angels of God are weighing moral worth. If you bestow your attentions upon those who have no need, you are doing the recipients harm, and you will receive condemnation rather than reward. Remember that, when by your trifling conversation you descend to the level of frivolous characters, you are encouraging them in the path that leads to perdition. Your unwise attentions may prove the ruin of their souls. You degrade their conceptions of what constitutes Christian life and character. You confuse their ideas, and make impressions that can never be effaced. (Testimonies on Sexual Behavior, p. 145) God's Word tells us: Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! (1 Corinthians 6:3, NIV) =================================== Since Ellen tells us that Christ died for the angels as well, that has to be factored in: ==== Imagine block quotes here ==== Quote: To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory. (The Desire of Ages, p. 758) Adventism teaches that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. I suppose that the logic is that when he died, he died not only as a human but also an angel? A truly amazing statement is the following, There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood (Heb. 9:22). It is Jesus' blood that purchases pardon. It is the same blood that would purchase pardon for Satan. But Satan will not be pardoned because he knowingly continued in rebellion. (SDA Pastor Kevin Morgan) "Jesus' blood .. is the same blood that would purchase pardon for Satan"? Satan is an angel. Since when did Jesus die to redeem the angels? Hebrews 2:14-16 (New International Version) 14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. ==================================== And then there is the troubling matter of Napoleon. According to Ellen White he had already been through the Investigative Judgment in her day -- and found wanting. In fact she says that he will lead Satan's armies against the heavenly city. He is going to have a rather impressive learning curve to quickly master all the new warfare technology that has been produced since his day! Based on the fact that Napoleon's verdict was already past in Ellen's day, it would appear that the Investigative Judgement has slowed down to the point where it is actually getting further and further behind. SDA Pastor Kevin Morgan explained it to me this way: ==== Imagine block quotes here ==== A SDA Pastor friend of mine made the following observation: But even though God knew that, and He could make a correct judgment and just say it is all over—He could say this is who is going to be saved and this is who is going to be lost,—the angels do not know all that and the inhabitants of the unfallen worlds do not know all that. They do not have all the knowledge that God has, so they have to keep records, and they have to review them. God could do it in a moment, but angels need more time, and God is willing to spend the extra time and effort, so all the angels and all the inhabitants of the unfallen worlds can see that the right decision was made. So why did God wait until 1844 to get started with the Investigative Judgment? =================================== Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1252 Registered: 11-2005 |
In my references there are actually numerous portions that are bolded that did not copy over in the copy and paste. Here are the references: http://exposingadventism.com/content/facts/christ_died-for-the-angels.php http://exposingadventism.com/content/facts/ij_angels-are-judging-us.php http://exposingadventism.com/content/facts/ij_angels-need-more-time.php Here is another interesting thing to consider. ==== Imagine block quotes and bolded text here ==== Exposing Adventism - Bypassing the Investigative Judgment Ellen White tells us: During His ministry, Jesus had raised the dead to life. He had raised the son of the widow of Nain, and the ruler’s daughter and Lazarus. But these were not clothed with immortality. After they were raised, they were still subject to death. But those who came forth from the grave at Christ’s resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave. These, said Christ, are no longer the captives of Satan; I have redeemed them. I have brought them from the grave as the first fruits of My power, to be with Me where I am, nevermore to see death or experience sorrow. (Desire of Ages, p. 786) How does this work if the Investigative Judgment didn't begin until 1844? Christ hadn't had a chance to investigate and judge them yet! ======================================= Reference: http://exposingadventism.com/content/facts/ij_bypassing-the-ij.php Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| ~angel~ Registered user Username: ~angel~ Post Number: 391 Registered: 3-2008  |
Thank you Gilbert for this very interesting post. So in a sence Adventism has swept this hugh doctrine mistake under the rug? How can anyone in their right mind stay in it or believe in it after this? I guess they are not in their right mind or they would see the errors as God has lead us to see the truth. I wonder if Mormans or JWs have anything like this that they are hiding? Just a thought.... Deceit is not of God! And God is not a Liar or a Deciever like Satan is! ~Angel~ | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1253 Registered: 11-2005 |
Diana, you bring up some more interesting questions. If, as Adventism teaches, Christ's blood was the physical transport that took sins to the heavenly sanctuary, then how do sins committed after that point in time get to heaven? An equally big problem is that the sins covered by the sanctuary service and the Day of atonement were sins of ommission (such as touching a dead person), not intentional sins. In the Adventist scheme of things how is a person forgiven of sins that the sanctuary atonement process did not cover? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 5922 Registered: 3-2004 |
Gilbert, Thanks for all your hard work. I know it is important to know the unbiblical things EGW said and wrote. When I read them, my mind goes in circles because it is so confusing after knowing what the Bible really says. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 8928 Registered: 12-2003  |
Gilbert, thank you. So many people think they "don't believe" in Ellen; they are amazed to find that she shaped their entire worldview when God finally strips away the veil from their eyes. Brian Cain's story is classic—a young adult who believed he didn't believe in Ellen—and one day he realized everything he understood was built on an Ellen worldview. You can read his story here: http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2008/Proclamation2008MarApr/faithstorya.html Colleen | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2008 |
I'm thinking that the IJ doctrine fit well when the shut door was still held (maybe not Biblically). Jesus out of the mediator job,into the judge job..but once the door had to be opened it no longer fit. Now Jesus was out of the room where forgiveness took place and how are all the new people that sin gonna get forgiven. Fits if the door stays shut, not if it is open. Everything since then has got to be just more twisted nonsense to cover up for that false shut door..IMHO | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 407 Registered: 11-2007 |
Thank goodness for the internet. Wish it had been around when I was younger. Only takes a few minutes to look EGW quotes up. I don't see how there can be any excuse for believeing her now unless someone has their eyes and minds closed. Surfy | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1255 Registered: 11-2005 |
Akweavers, a fascinating question to ask Adventists is why God the Father and God the Son were both sitting on thrones in the holy place of the heavenly sanctuary. During that time the light over the mercy seat above the Ark of the (Old) Covenant must have been out, because the Father was sitting on a throne in the other room -- the holy place. And then when they get up off their two thrones in the Holy Place and get in chariots to ride into the most holy place, then Satan (who was cast out of heaven) returns and goes into the holy place (1843-1844) where he answers the prayers of non-Adventists. http://exposingadventism.com/content/facts/satan_in-heaven-answering-prayers.php Imagine how much different history would have turned out if Christ had taken Satan up on Satan's offer to help shoulder the "plan of salvation"! http://exposingadventism.com/content/facts/christ_satan-offers-to-help-with-plan-of-salvation.php And Seventh-day Adventism claims that it is a "Christian" denomination? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1141 Registered: 5-2007  |
Surfy, Concerning the power of the internet, you've got that right. When I returned to the Lord, there were plenty of Christ centered people to lead me into true Christian doctrines. Researching SDA theology was a whole different 'ball game'. It was the direct help of the Holy Spirit that showed me what was wrong with the IJ and that convenced me that Ellen was a false prophet. What took many years to do was to study and learn, on my own, an overall picture of SDA theology and history. Walter Martin's books were a help but it was clear to me he didn't see the 'real picture'. For instance, I had never heard of Ron Numbers and his book. I had no idea how to find Canright's books. I had no way to find or contact others who were doing what I was doing. In that respect, I was all alone. Now, all is different. A couple of clicks on the internet and tons of information is on my computer screen. When Colleen suggested I should get on this forum, I responded by asking; "What's a forum"? Here, we are family and I love it. Phil (Message edited by philharris on October 22, 2008) | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 26 Registered: 8-2008 |
Hey, I did ask one adventist about chairs being in there. They said yes they were and that Jesus or God moved them from outside in there and then on into the second room..they said Daniel 8 talked about moving funiture and that proved it..I could not help but laugh..don't think they took to kindly to that  | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 380 Registered: 1-2006  |
Gilbert Thanks for your good post. Have you even wondered if the Lord may just grant an investigative judgment to those who insist on having one? Bob | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1256 Registered: 11-2005 |
Akweavers, I wonder what they would do with Hebrews 10:20 stating that the earthly veil was a shadow of Christ's body. I suppose that the rest of the "heavenly sanctuary" is physical, but then according to Hebrews 10:20 the physical veil of the physical heavenly sanctuary is replaced by Christ's physical body? That makes as much sense as their attempt to put the heavenly sanctuary outside the New Jerusalem as a tourist attraction. Would Christ's physical body still be replacing the physical veil when it becomes a museum? How long would He be stuck there? http://exposingadventism.com/content/organization/clear-word-bible/verses/rev21_22.php Adventist cultic doctrine is so ludicrous that they only way to believe it is to use it as the interpreter for all other truth. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2008 |
jorgfe: Hmm I am continually amazed at the nonsense I discover everyday from this cult I was in for 46 years. I think they are in some type of alternate world where wrong=right. The worst part is, most are not even willing to consider that just MAYBE they have something wrong. Of course with all the warnings of doom pronounced on anyone who questions the "prophet" or even associates with someone who questions her...I guess I understand why. I was just like that not too long ago. Thank the Lord He opened my eyes. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 282 Registered: 7-2004 |
Of all the ridiculous things that were on the list, this one sticks out to me... "At this time in the history of the world, we should have but one object in view–to gain eternal life." If we have to worry about this....if we have to focus on gaining eternal life...we sure as heck aren't concentrating on sharing the gospel with others! What a selfish statement!!!! We've got to GAIN eternal life, not accept the free gift! Heresy is the only word to describe it. I can't even believe that he would print this! |
