| Author | Message | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 66 Registered: 9-2006 |
With the economy slowing down, donations at our church here in Redlands, Trinity Evangelical Free Church, have declined. Cuts have been necessary, understandably. However, I was disturbed by one of our church elders getting up two Sundays ago, and urging us all to pay tithe, with 10% "as a guideline." He used Malachi 3 to warn us about bringing "defective" offerings, meaning incomplete ones, and challenged us to bring the full tithes to the store house so that God can pour out a blessing. You might call this an SDA flashback. We've had some good discussions about tithing on this forum in the past, and this was a reminder that the issue is alive in many places. I am disturbed by the use of the Old Covenant language of blessings and curses to motivate Christians. There are no "guidelines" in Malachi 3, this is a call to abide by the Law. Someone on our forum linked a wonderful article by John MacArthur, http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/tithe.htm, where he shows how the OT demands much more from the Jews than 10%, it was really about 25%, to support the theocratic system. It reminded me of how as Adventists we picked out what parts of the OT Law we wanted to keep. Christ-followers are under the whole law of Christ. I'm considering writing a letter, but I want to do this in a loving way, and am interested in your comments. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1649 Registered: 10-2002  |
I'll be praying for you all at Trinity. (>_<) In Jesus, Ramone | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2008 |
In his book Pagan Christianity, Frank Viola shows that tithing was not a part of Christian life until about the 7th or 8th centuries, IIRC. How did it come into Christianity? Back then, the payment for leasing land in feudal Europe was 10% of the produce of the land. The Catholic Church was a huge landowner, so to justify receiving this 10%, they read back their tradition into the Bible and came up with the Old Covenant tithing requirement from Leviticus. This continues in Protestant churches. Sad, but not surprising. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1714 Registered: 8-2004  |
Welcome to the Forum, Bskillet. Your username brought a smile to my lips before I even read your post. Make yourself at home! Blessings, Mary | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3778 Registered: 9-2006  |
welcome to the forum bskillet, tell us something about yourself when you are ready. River | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 237 Registered: 1-2007 |
Welcome Bskillet, I did not realize about the tithing starting in the 7th or so centuries. Guess I am not too old to learn something new. Gail | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 599 Registered: 5-2007 |
10For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. 11They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach - and that for the sake of dishonest gain. Titus 1 Hi Bskillet. Believe it or don't, there is a Lickskillet Road a dozen miles from me, just a little past the settlement of Crabtree! | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2008 |
Hi all! Thanks for the welcome. Another funny thing about Malachi 3 is that the same author I mentioned before, Frank Viola, showed that there were three tithes paid by Israel (I'm sure many here are familiar with this). The tithes, especially the third tithe paid every three years, went to the poor. In context, Malachi 3 is criticizing people under the Old Covenant who were neglecting the tithes necessary to help the poor. (See verse 5, where it speaks of widows and orphans.) This was one of the things that convinced me of the wrongness of tithe. Only landowners in the Old Covenant, the rich of society, paid tithe, because only the produce of the land and the flock were acceptable for tithe. Poor people NEVER paid tithe. Rather, they RECEIVED tithe. Adventists who use Malachi 3 unwittingly condemn themselves, because they do not use the tithe to help the poor. They stand condemned by their own measure. Kind of a Romans 2:1 thing: "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things." | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1332 Registered: 11-2005 |
Are Adventists willing to follow the tithing instructions given in Deuteronomy 14:22-29 and Deuteronomy 26? Do Adventists believe that Deuteronomy 14:26 (KJV) is also instruction from God? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 208 Registered: 4-2007  |
I have never read those verses before Gilbert. Very interesting...especially vs. 26. ;) ~Kristen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1334 Registered: 11-2005 |
I personally prefer not to encourage the drinking of alcoholic beverages, but if we are going to be faithful to God's Word we must be willing to follow Scripture wherever it leads us -- in context. The Bible also has plenty to say about the abuse of alcohol. One of many problems I have with Adventism is that they treat God's Word like a buffet where they yank a verse out of its context, misapply it, and then refuse to ignore other supporting texts. If they are going to implement tithing, using any Bible verses as support, then they have to be willing to bring all the verses relating to tithing "to the table" to see if they apply. The Bible very clearly says in Leviticus 27:31 that if they cannot pay in produce or animals, and prefer to redeem them for cash, which they present instead, that they are to add another 2%. Adventists simply don't know their Bibles. What they know is the Ellenized version. How many Adventists are faithful tithe payers -- paying a 12% tithe as Scripture commands? They are fond of quoting the story of Abraham giving 10% of his stolen loot to Melchizedek. How many Adventists raid their neighbors and then bring 10% to church? Adventist misapplications make my head spin. To start with a predetermined goal of finding justification for paying tithe, and then attempt to yank isolated verses out of context to support a preconceived objective is a farce. That is what Adventism does with the 7th Sabbath -- while totally ignoring the ultimate Sabbath of the system of Mosaic Sabbaths -- the Year of Jubilee -- which pointed forward to Christ as our true Sabbath Rest. That is what Adventists do with the New Covenant sealing by the Holy Spirit. They replace the Holy Spirit's rightful chair with their own nebulous misapplication of the 7th-day Sabbath from the Mosaic Law. That is what Adventists do in attempting to support their "soul-sleep" myth. They rally around Ecclesiastes 9:5 while ignoring Ecclesiastes 7:1. That is in the same book of the Bible -- only two chapters away! Adventists will give you a totally blank stare if you ask them to explain 2 Corinthians 5:1-10. Is God's Word really that hard to understand? This is what Adventists do in attempting to support a "weekly" Sabbath in heaven by quoting Isaiah 66:23 but making sure that it is not followed by verse 24. Adventism has an urgent need to toss their theological mutant that makes up most of its 28 Fundamental Beliefs into the trash bin of illogicality. For example, the sanctuary doctrine is the duck-billed platypus of post-Millerite theology, an absurdity pieced together from spare parts lying around after the implosion of the Great Disappointment. Its exquisite exemplification of cognitive dissonance theory would have amazed, and perhaps embarrassed, even Leon Festinger. Just one example of the height of this absurdity is the SDA Clear Word rendering of Revelation 21:22. Revelation 21:22 (King James Version)Say what? I have read a lot of crazy things in the SDA Clear Word Bible, but nothing prepared me for this preposterous interpretation. "The Temple or Sanctuary I had expected to see was located outside the City as a reminder of what God had done for His people"? Where does it say that in the Bible? The first part that says, "I didn't see any Temple in the New Jerusalem because there was no need of a Temple, since God and the Lamb were personally there" is equally damming to Adventism's cultic beliefs. If indeed there is no need for a Temple "since God and the Lamb were personally there" then please tell me Who does Adventism teach entered the Most Holy Place of the Sanctuary in 1844? So this physical sanctuary the Adventists' Investigative Judgment took place in starting in 1844 actually sits outside the New Jerusalem, and serves as a museum piece? I wonder how big the Holy Place is that Christ was stuck in for 1813 years? This Adventist "pretzel logic" defies description. It makes absolutely no sense, and it surely is not Biblical! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3779 Registered: 9-2006 |
No it ain't Biblical Gilbert, it is brazenly prideful and presumptuous on Gods own word. Basically it sneers at the Bible and God himself seems to me. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 534 Registered: 7-2007 |
Adventists ignore the fact that Isaiah 66:23 also says that all people shall come to worship before God "from one New Moon to another." [Notice that it says "from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another," not "on the New Moons and Sabbaths." It's obvious to me that the verse is simply stating that people will be continuously worshiping the Lord.] Anyway, Adventists don't believe that they have to observe the New Moons! (Colossians 2:16,17 says that the festivals - which are the yearly and seasonal Sabbaths; the New Moons and the Sabbaths are all shadows of Christ.) Philippians 1:21-25 was a difficult passage for me when I was an Adventist. I'd read through it quickly, thinking that surely it didn't mean what it said! After all, the apostle Paul is saying there that he wishes that he could depart and be with Christ, but that it was more important that he stay in the flesh for the sake of the people he was teaching. I wonder what the Clear Word makes of that! I wouldn't be surprised if it completely changed it in order to be consistent with Adventist doctrine. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3781 Registered: 9-2006 |
Speaking of the Clear Word I wish the person that borrowed my copy and didn't return it would do so. Its not right to beg to borrow something saying you will return it and then fail to follow through. I was kind enough to mail it to you and pay the postage myself, so please return the book. River P.S. If you are reading this, my address has changed. Come on here and fess up and I will give you my new address. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3782 Registered: 9-2006 |
Before I responded to this thread I wanted to go back and study Malachi three. Malachi starts with this prophecy 1. “Behold I will send my messenger and he will prepare the way before me and is linked with the NT John the Baptist indicating both a historical and messianic application. Although there is no consensus to in the contemporary church as to the NT applicability of tithing, It reflects Israel’s neglecting her covenant relationship with God by robbing him of tithes and offerings and her neglect brought retributive judgment and God challenges her to prove him. We are under the new covenant, the new has replaced the old, yet Gods principles remain the same. The New Testament early church indicates giving and Jesus indicated giving. The local church where we are fed is Gods “storehouse” for us in particular time and as Martinc’s post reflected the local church suffers shamefully at the hands of it’s local congregation just as Gods house suffered then. God was displeased then and I have no doubt he is displeased when it happens now and I see no reason that he might withhold a blessing now from the hands of a stingy and selfish congregation of people. Even in hard times we can stretch out and give to take care of the local church where we go to worship and in doing so I believe God will abide by his word whether you call it tithing or giving. As reflected in MartinC’s post a shameful condition exist in the local church at Redlands and while I don’t believe the elder should coerce the people to pay tithe with the 10 % as a guideline there is plenty of teaching from the New Testament he could give on giving and the church body probably needs to hear it seeing the place they expect the doors to be open to them on Sunday morning is still there and I think the warnings from Malachi is apt. I just can’t see God being pleased when his “store house” suffers. He said to bring “all” the tithes into his storehouse that there may be food in his house. Picture this scenario, the Pastor or elder walks slowly up to the steps of the church to turn the key to lock for the last time, the electricity has been turned off by the power company for failure to pay, the banker waits with greedy hands for that prime property and the place is dark and cold, no more to hear the joyus shouts of children, no more to see the bowed knee of a hurting or seeking heart. His steps grow slower as he climbs that last step and his heart is fraught with sadness. The cutbacks at Redland are a harbinger of that time. You say “Oh, that won’t happen.” But without the giving it will happen. The Bible says he is like a refiners fire and a launders soap, he knows the heart of those who withhold an offering in righteousness, the rightness of local church support and he knows the heart of those who puts their cars and houses and vacations first, those who do not even bother to attend and support the local church where the gospel is heard, encouragement is given and faith is born. The New Testament records how some churches sent relief to other churches and that is the kind of thing I think God is pleased with. To support themselves and to send relief to others surely reflects a giving people. So I do believe we can take the message in Malachi three and apply it to the NT church, God had a real beef with these people of that time and he may have a real beef with people in the NT church today because there is no doubt that it is showing signs of neglect, I have no reason to doubt MartinC’s word that his church at Redlands is suffering. Without faithful and generous gifts Proclamation! cannot continue or perhaps even this forum for that matter and I have proved God with obedience in giving. Years ago we were all getting into the car for church and I had to go back into the house for some reason or other and I had to go around through the back of the house, as I came back out of the back door to lock it I saw a wino digging through my garbage can, we were poor ourselves and I had only five bucks to my name, I saw that the wino’s head was bleeding from cuts and I walked over to him for a closer look and the Holy Spirit prompted me to give him my five bucks so I gave it to him and said get yourself something to eat. I walked back around to the car and my wife said “What took you so long, we are going to be late.” I told her what happened and she railed on me for giving our last five bucks to a wino. I thought “Well Lord, that’s that”. That night people walked up to me and hand me a sack of groceries and told me the Lord told them to bring it, another person walked up and said the Lord told them to give me ten bucks, another person walked up to me and shoved money in my hand, it was seven bucks, I went back home that same night I gave the money with a sack of groceries and seventeen bucks, it don’t sound like much, but it was far more than what I walked out the back door with and God saw us through. Take the testimony and do what you will with it, but I learned about Gods principles of giving that night. So I do believe although the Lord was addressing Israel the same principle of giving can be carried over into our time and I believe the 10% is a good base for giving and God will bless us for our giving. My hope is that, although there is no link to tithing to the new covenant that I can see, I want to encourage people to give generously whatever the case may be, my experience has been that you can’t out give God. I call it faith giving. Corinthians II 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. What we give into today in faith is toward that that is unseen, it don’t make much visible sense for a man with a wife and five kids to feed to give his last five bucks to a wino digging through a garbage can and the world would call me foolish, the wisdom of God is foolishness to the world, but I have staked my hope on things unseen and ignored by the world. Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. Corinthians II 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Corinthians II 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. Corinthians II 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: Corinthians II 9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. Corinthians II 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;) Corinthians II 9:11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. Corinthians II 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; So what God said in Malachi still stands in principle as far as I can see. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 8980 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, thank you for the II Corinthians passage above. You are right; God asks us to give generously. It is our obligation as Christ-followers. I totally understand Martinc's reaction, though. As Adventists we were taught tithing as an obligation and even a threat; a "do this and be blessed or refuse and SUFFER!!!" And the point was that our tithe was actually a "church tax"—denominational employees, in fact, had to pay tithe to stay employed. I remember having to sign an agreement to pay, and the conference treasurer kept track. In some circumstances, such as Richard's as a student at an SDA academy, working in the school's furniture factory industry, his tithe was deducted from his paycheck before he received his check. The passages in the New Testament address the issue of giving from a new covenant position, and I believe they are more powerful today than are the Old Testament tithing requirements because those were rooted in the specific conditions set up in the Mosaic Covenant. The NT instructions, however, ask us to give way more than a "mere" 10%. They ask us to give beyond what we seem able to give. In fact, we are to see everything we have as God's—and that's what I hear you saying, River. We have no right to our money or our things. These are all gifts from God, and they are His. He asks us to steward them for His glory. And when we give according to His prompting beyond what our finances seem able to bear, He provides what we need. There's no way to know how He will do this unless we act in faith first. I'm not suggesting a self-serving, test-God-and-see-what-happens attitude. I'm say that when we trust God, we know His voice, and we know when He is asking us to give beyond our apparent ability. He is faithful. My personal wish is that more churches had the courage to preach true NT sacrificial giving—laying the groundwork first of establishing that nothing we have is ours, anyway. God asks us to depend on Him, not on our bankroll. As the II Corinthians text you quoted, River, says, God gives us what we need to be able to give what He asks us to give. His provision is for the sake of our generosity and love for God. He is faithful. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 8981 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, Bskillet, welcome to the forum! Sorry I'm so late with my greeting—I'm glad you're here! Colleen | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 229 Registered: 1-2005  |
That being said, River, bashing folks over the head with guilt and accusations of stinginess and selfishness really don't go very far in striking a chord of love in people's hearts. People don't need sermons to urge them to give. They only need the facts. It's the Holy Spirit's job to do the convicting, not ours. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3791 Registered: 9-2006 |
You are correct Lindylou, I have heard it done, used as a bludgeon into giving. I do disagree with you in that we don't need sermons on giving, the sermons given in the proper context and manner, some folk are just plain ignorant to the blessing that come out of giving. some don't think about it at all and I think we do need sermons on giving the same as sermons on other subjects. Support of the visible stick churches and the missionaries they support is a needed thing. Jesus thought it was good to instruct on giving, why should we be any diffrent, although I do understand where you are coming from, a strictly legalistic back ground. The Holy Spirit many times uses sermons on many subjects to convict, else why preach at all? River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 536 Registered: 7-2007 |
The tithe was strictly Old Covenant. In the New Covenant, God wants people to give cheerfully. Actually, God guides ministries by the supply of money. Dave Wilkerson never asks people for money, yet the money comes in to support all of his ministries. George Mueller never asked for money for the orphanages he ran, yet the money he needed came in. Besides all that, God is RICH! He doesn't need our money. He only asks that we give, so that we ourselves will be blessed by our giving. Every cult requires tithing. Since they are not being led by God, there isn't any money for them for their churches/temples/mosques, etc. So in order to run, the Adventists, Mormons, JWs, etc. HAVE to require it. The difference is that the tithe was a mandatory Old Covenant rule. Giving is New Covenant and voluntary. Before F.D. Roosevelt started the welfare system, it was the willing ministry of the churches to take care of the poor. Now that there's mandatory taxes to run welfare, people aren't willing to take care of the poor and the poor are worse off now than they used to be. |
