| Author | Message | ||
| Freefloridagirl Registered user Username: Freefloridagirl Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2008 |
Remember the raid on the polygamy ranch in TX several months ago? Back then I read a book by a woman who had escaped. At the time I still believed in adventism. I remember thinking how could those women allow themselves to be so controlled? Then I read that book and realized that all they knew is what they were taught. It must be a rare person who questions things and acts on their curiosity. This is ironic to me because I have always thought of myself as someone who did not believe something just because I heard it or read it. Yet I was in a cult and never knew it. I had never heard that adventism is a cult until I learned what I now know because I stumbled upon it on the internet. So now I wonder: When you have people at a point where they have to behave in certain ways in order to get to heaven, it is so easy to see why cults are so dangerous. I am thinking back on Waco and think that the minds of many adventists are primed for being led into dangerous situations. Growing up I did have many questions and was uncomfortable with many contradictions but I would assume I was wrong, that the leaders understood a lot more than me so who was I to question anything? I would just internalize all of the anxiety. I lived daily with fears that I am still trying to understand. I am just trying to learn the gospel from the Bible only. I am so afraid to join another church but I think I should. My 3 year old keeps saying "Tomarrow I am going to sabbat school (he does not pronounce the th right). I tell him we are going to find a new church but he does not understand and misses his class. I am sure you all know what I am going through and I am so glad to have the support here. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 535 Registered: 7-2007 |
I've been going to a non-denominational Christian fellowship church - not joining it, but going and enjoying the sermons where the pastor is going through the Bible, not jumping all over with a verse here and a verse there. I guess I had it easy in that regard. My gentleman-friend goes there and he comes over and takes me with him on Sunday mornings. I've also been out of the SDA church for 2 and a half years. It might be a good idea to try a Wednesday night service somewhere and see what it's like. You're right about the need to be VERY careful! There are certainly lots of churches that ADD to the Bible! (Curious, how all the cults ADD to the Word of God and say that they are the ONE TRUE CHURCH!) I also was REALLY shocked to find out that I was in a cult! Even my gentleman friend didn't know I was in one, and he's always gone to regular churches. (This one is like a Calvary Chapel.) Dianne | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 60 Registered: 8-2008 |
Freefloridagirl: Everything you wrote sounds just like my life. Raised in it, saw contradictions, thought they knew more...The internet also provided my way out. So far I have not had one day go by without thinking, "We were in a cult", and my mind just sorta zones out on the thought. It makes me mad if I think about. I thank God he showed us the way out. Now I just want other people to in there to see the way out. However, it is all but impossible to get through to them. The few that will even listen to you don't seem to comprehend. They are like programmed robots. I say that knowing I was just like them and it makes me ill. Prayer is the only hope. I'm sure they are thinking what I did.."They are offshoots just trying to drag people out of God's church, satan knows he doesn't have much time left and he wants to take as many with him as he can. I remember thinking Dale Ratzlaff was the devil incarnate. Now I want to read his books and I am still scared to get them. How crazy is that? I found a place that will send you free phamplets on how to identify a cult. I am going to put them out all over my little town. Maybe someone will be saved from the dreadful Share Him scam that will start soon. (Message edited by akweavers on November 15, 2008) | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1339 Registered: 11-2005 |
Freefloridagirl, What a powerful testimony. That is a post that deserves to be printed in the letters column of Proclamation! Yes. Only the Holy Spirit can lead us out of a cult. The brainwashing and mind-control within Adventism is so strong. I think one sure sign of a cult is that those in the cult are the only ones with the "truth". I think another essential is the belief that it is only a matter of time and everyone on the outside will persecute them for believing that they have the "truth". I find the safest place for anyone to start is with a careful study of what the Good News of the Bible truly is. There are so many "snake oil salesmen" out there -- Adventism being just one. Adventism, for example, teaches that there is more to the Gospel than what God revealed through the Bible. It teaches that in order to be ready for Christ's coming there must also be
But as we have seen (for example in Hebrews 1:1-2), the gospel is God's final word, beyond which there is nothing to be said or experienced. There is no way of going on from hearing the gospel to some more profound or fuller knowledge of God. The Seventh-day Adventist "gospel" fails the test. Their "rabbit trails" into the Jewish Old Covenant Sabbath that never gets them to Christ as their true Sabbath Rest, state of the dead, etc are all irrelevant if they promote a false gospel. There is only one source that a false gospel can come from -- Satan. Think about that one for a little bit. The devil is smart, but we serve a God who has given us each the indwelling Holy Spirit. Adventism attempts to take that away and tell us that we are sealed by the Jewish 7th-day Sabbath instead of the Holy Spirit. That is why Adventists have no assurance of salvation. All they can offer is hope -- but no assurance. Even their TV channel is called the Hope Channel. The Good News of the Gospel offers unequivical assurance! John 3:16 (King James Version)There is absolutely no doubt in that statement. And yet Adventism teaches: Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. This is misleading. (Christ Object Lessons, page 155)Freefloridagirl, those kind of statements make chills run down my spine. There is only one source for statements like that -- Satan. God's Word tells us: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God: that ye may know that ye have eternal life... 1 John 5:13It seems like Ellen White spent most of her time focusing on how a person can be lost, while Jesus focused on how a person can be saved. We, who have been freed from the chains of Adventism, have that assurance. Adventism is a religion of fear and bondage -- a terribly toxic brew of heresy mixed with enough truth to ensnare those who are not well grounded in the Word. We must pray earnestly for each other, lift each other up to God that He will give us clear spiritual vision, and courage and boldness to expose this travesty for what it really is. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3780 Registered: 9-2006  |
What scares me about it is a three year old dwelling on this, that doesn't seem normal to me. I have heard other formers say something like that. Now I am wondering if this spirit works on even the kids, having been exposed to it. I mean that is down right weird if you ask me, which you didn't. Like Gilbert said, it can only come from a spirit of anti Christ. River | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 345 Registered: 10-2006 |
River, the three year old probably just misses his friends and the routine. Kids were a focal point at my former church. Sabbath school classes were fun. If a child missed a week, he would get phones calls, maybe a card in the mail (that's a huge deal to a kid) and maybe even a visit with a toy. Kids were a huge part of the service ,too. Even the littlest ones gave prayer requests and testimonies of answered prayer. They collected the lamb's offering and had their own story time in the service with aunt or uncle ____ (whoever the storyteller was that week). If I were a kid, I would miss that kind of stuff, too. All he knows it that it felt good, was fun and he misses his friends. That all being said, the indoctrination starts early in cradle roll with "Our Little friend." Kids at my church loved Sabbath school. I wonder what would happen if the mainline churches treasured and included their kids that way... Just thinking. | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 418 Registered: 11-2007 |
Gilbert posted this: Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. This is misleading. (Christ Object Lessons, page 155) As long as man is full of weakness–for of himself he cannot save his soul–he should never dare to say, "I am saved." (Selected Messages, vol 1, page 314) God's Word tells us: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God: that ye may know that ye have eternal life... 1 John 5:13 ___________________________________________ This obvious contradiction, and blatant lie, should be enough to convince people that her words are not true. This is not the only contradiction either. I am sure Gilbert could post EGW quotes, side by side of Bible texts, all day long clearly showing error in her teachings. Adventists would still defend her teachings. WAKE UP ADVENTISTS. THIS WOMAN DOES NOT TEACH BIBLICAL TRUTH. Your whole religion is based on a false gospel. Your whole religion is based on the writings of a woman that clearly contradicts the Holy Scriptures. How can you defend a woman like that? Surfy | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 604 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, it is called the spirit of fanaticism. Three year olds are born dead in their sins and are not naturally immune to fanaticism. Witness the adults they grow into! I found an interesting read on fanaticism by Voltaire at this website: Here is a sampling of some of Voltaires musings: Fanaticism is the effect of a false conscience, which makes religion subservient to the caprices of the imagination, and the excesses of the passions. We understand by fanaticism at present a religious madness, gloomy and cruel. It is a malady of the mind, which is taken in the same way as smallpox. Books communicate it much less than meetings and discourses. We seldom get heated while reading in solitude, for our minds are then tranquil and sedate. But when an ardent man of strong imagination addresses himself to weak imaginations, his eyes dart fire, and that fire rapidly spreads; his tones, his gestures, absolutely convulse the nerves of his auditors. He exclaims, “The eye of God is at this moment upon you; sacrifice every mere human possession and feeling; fight the battles of the Lord” — and they rush to the fight. Fanaticism is, in reference to superstition, what delirium is to fever, or rage to anger. He who is involved in ecstasies and visions, who takes dreams for realities, and his own imaginations for prophecies, [think Wm. Miller, my comment] is a fanatical novice of great hope and promise, and will probably soon advance to the highest form, and kill man for the love of God. When once fanaticism has gangrened the brain of any man the disease may be regarded as nearly incurable. What a tissue of frauds, calumnies, and robberies has been woven by fanatics of the court of Rome against fanatics of the court of Calvin, by Jesuits against Jansenists, and vice versa! And if you go farther back you will find ecclesiastical history, which is the school of virtues, to be that of atrocities and abominations, which have been employed by every sect against the others. They all have the same bandage over their eyes whether marching out to burn down the cities and towns of their adversaries, to slaughter the inhabitants, or condemn them to judicial execution; or when merely engaged in the comparatively calm occupation of deceiving and defrauding, of acquiring wealth and exercising domination. The same fanaticism blinds them; they think that they are doing good. Every fanatic is a conscientious knave, but a sincere and honest murderer for the good cause. Too bad Voltaire could not comment directly on Wm. Miller or the Whites, as this was written in 1764. The principles can still be seen to apply to adventism in any case. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 605 Registered: 5-2007 |
One could show an adventist such scripture as 1 John 5:13. Then one could ask that adventist if they think it was God inspired, and the absolute truth. Likely he will say yes to both. Get the adventist to say that anyone who writes the opposite sentiment is doing the work of the devil, for it is against God. Maybe they could also admit that anyone who cannot see they are going against God is being used as a tool of the devil. That should be an easy sell! Then show them the COL 155 quote! What do you think, will they "get it" or will they still be blinded by satan? | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 216 Registered: 4-2007 |
"One could show an adventist such scripture as 1 John 5:13. Then one could ask that adventist if they think it was God inspired, and the absolute truth. Likely he will say yes to both. Get the adventist to say that anyone who writes the opposite sentiment is doing the work of the devil, for it is against God. Maybe they could also admit that anyone who cannot see they are going against God is being used as a tool of the devil. That should be an easy sell! Then show them the COL 155 quote! What do you think, will they "get it" or will they still be blinded by satan?" Larry, the answer is simple, if you would just see it without your prejudices. THE ADVENTIST ANSWER: It is possible that she may have spoken something from her best judgment that was not correct. She herself gives us examples of this kind of thing--matters of judgment that God later revealed as being incorrect. My first assumption is not that she is wrong, but that I have overlooked something myself. I don't assume she is wrong every time I find an apparent contradiction. I have had enough evidence to see the genuineness of her relationship with Jesus and the reliability of her statements. The apparent contradictions can be harmonized in a similar way to the apparent contradictions found in Scripture. I think you are saying, is there a principle of interpretation that allows her to be wrong on a major doctrine but still believable. Is that correct? If there isn't such a principle, and I deem something she teaches unbiblical, does that not disqualify her? Judging her as false on the basis of my own particular view of a passage or on the basis of the most negative view of her own words is not being fair to her. I must recognize the possibility that my view is lacking particulars that she was privileged to see. John Douglas | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 608 Registered: 5-2007 |
John, I know which particular sda pastor those quotes came from! Problem with this brand of apologetics quotes is: they cannot exclude Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russell. I bet Gilbert can even find parellel apologetics in the mormon faith since he is closer to it physically and has many mormon contacts on a daily basis. And even a mormon who uses such is then not able to exclude ellen white or charles taze russell! Are you sure it is me who is prejudiced? | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 219 Registered: 4-2007 |
Larry, Larry, Larry We all know you are an anti-authoritarian chauvinist due to your rejection of Mother Ellen so that you can continue living your antinomian profligate lifestyle. REPENT and keep the Sabbath! John Oh! and stop eating bacon! | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 611 Registered: 5-2007 |
"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Corinthians 6:12 Sorry John, I am permitted to repent & worship on Sunday if I wish! If it was permitted in Jesus time, while on earth, it is permitted in my time! Have a look: After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," He said. They came to Him, clasped His feet and worshiped Him. Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him -- Matthew 28:1,9,16,17 All this occurred on a day we might call Sunday! And pork? It is one of my favorite health foods. All things are lawful. Being "not beneficial" does not turn the first phrase on its head! I am fairly certain St. Paul had no idea that the grill marks on his leg of lamb could cause cancer. He would have to wait for scientists 2000 years later to publish that info. But science does not make things unlawful for us. I think there were clogged arteries all through history. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 8979 Registered: 12-2003  |
Ha!  Floridagirl, I understand so well. When I first entertained the thought that I had been in a cult, I was shocked and tried to deny it—but ultimately, I couldn't deny it. In fact, the longer I am out, the more certainly I see it to be a truly dangerous cult. Gilbert's right about the mind control, the insistence that we are the only truth as being a hallmark of a cult. I think everyone who leaves Adventism struggles to some degree or other with the idea of joining another church. Just as with questioning Adventism, the antidote for the fear is prayer and personal commitment to Bible study. Ask God to direct you to the church where He already knows you and your son and family will grow and deepen in Jesus and His word. Look for a church that preaches the Bible. And don't be too upset if you hear things about "the rapture" or "hell"—you can find deep fellowship with Jesus even if you haven't worked through all the issues of death, eschatology, and the afterlife. God will teach you His truth in His time if you are committed to studying the Bible in submission to His Spirit. As Adventists we learned that these things were "deal breakers" and related to salvation. In fact, Christians hold differing views about these subjects, and it's OK!! Knowing Jesus and growing in Him is the core, and God will teach you what you need to know about these other things. If you stay away from an otherwise biblical, alive church because of fear of these subjects, you may deprive yourself of much-needed fellowship that God would use to support and nurture you. Ask Him to guide you where you need to go. He is faithful! He knows what you need! Isn't it wonderful to be free in Jesus? Instead of being driven by fear and doubt, we can have peace and hope even when we can't see how everything will resolve. With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 613 Registered: 5-2007 |
My previous post was at: Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 9:40 am: Colleens post was at: Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 8:52 am: Am I posting into the future? Am I a prophet now? And this post was at: Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 9:55 am: While my computer clock says 8:57 am .... (Message edited by Larry on November 15, 2008) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3788 Registered: 9-2006 |
Does that go for clogged sinks too my man? Does it? Now does it? How durst ye worship on a day I have not deemed suitable ye troll. Belay this mad man and tie him to the masthead for the forty and one lashings he so justly deserves. Oh, the cruelty of this pig eater! I dare nast look at such a throbble as ye! Begone! Begone ye pork swallower and Sabbath breaker! To the racks with ye this day, doon what ye will with this man. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3789 Registered: 9-2006 |
Howdy Sister Colleen, aire ye back from yer flounderings across the great sea? River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3790 Registered: 9-2006 |
(Message edited by river on November 15, 2008) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 8986 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ha! Indeed, River—we have floundered our way back t'home! Now let's see what time this post shows... Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 8987 Registered: 12-2003 |
Weird--Richard says there's something wrong with the clock at the server... Colleen |
