| Author | Message | ||
| Freefloridagirl Registered user Username: Freefloridagirl Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2008 |
My cousins come every year for Thanksgiving and do not know the extent of my discoveries about the problems with adventist doctrine. I would like to witness to them but in many ways beleive that I am too new at this and not familiar enough to debate effectively over the issues. However, I may feel complelled to do so. I am thinking about leaving Dale's books around so they might conveniently stumble upon them. They are health nuts,so to speak, and cling to the health message. I was wondering if any of you know of information that would show the errors of EGW's health message, any "ask an adventist" questions in this area? Also, were EGW's writings on health also plagerized? | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1358 Registered: 11-2005 |
I have found that former Adventist pastor Greg Taylor's book, "Discovering the New Covenant—why I am no longer a Seventh-day Adventist", is very well written and gentle on the Adventist who is for the first time confronted with the theological cracks in Adventism. Dale Ratzlaff's books are very good for those who are ready to do some deeper theological digging, or those who are not committed to Adventism in the first place -- such as your local Christian pastors who don't know much about Adventism. I consider them to be excellent followup books. I would feel comfortable giving Greg's book to the most diehard Adventist. The Adventist's visceral reaction is to grasp onto anything that they can use to defend Adventism. The organization, rather than Christ as their Savior, is their identity. Since they are on "probation", it is the organization that "saves" them, rather than the assurance that they are "adopted son's and daughters" of God. I cover this at Exposing Adventism - Marketing the Adventist Agenda. Actually keeping an Adventist focussed during a discussion of Adventist beliefs is extremely challenging. Think of it as a situation where you have only one chance, and that opportunity has to be successful. If I want to broach the subject of Adventist teachings with an Adventist I will explore with them the "gospel of assurance" vs the "gospel of probation". I will typically do it in question form, eg, "I have been doing a lot of Bible study recently, and I need help defining what the 'Good News' of Adventism is." Let them come up with some sort of answer. Then I share with them that my Bible study has led me to the conclusion that there are two gospels -- the genuine and a counterfeit. I find it best not to even focus on Adventism but to be passionate about the true gospel of assurance vs. Satan's counterfeit gospel of probation. The closer you lead them to the true gospel of Christ the more you can contrast it with the elements of Adventism's false gospel without even mentioning Adventism per se. I have non-Adventists ask me how to witness to Adventists. My answer is always the same. They don't even need to know Adventism and Ellen White to preach the real Good News! Christ died for each of us. When we are born again we do have the assurance of salvation. Jesus has led me into the full freedom of the gospel, and the absolute assurance that I have been saved, and that I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. No one, no demon, no person, no false doctrine, no legalism can separate me from the love, the eternal love of my Savior and God. Now that is Good News. I contrast that with a gospel of probation where we are never quite good enough. I would ask, "What is the difference between someone who is on probation, and someone who is adopted? Which one does the Bible teach?" Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1359 Registered: 11-2005 |
Exposing Adventism - Where did the Health Message really come from? and related pages will help you. I recommend keeping the conversation focused on the gospel though. If Ellen White promotes a false gospel, then there is no way she can be a true prophet and there is no reason to fear what she wrote. The devil is very adept at mixing a little poison with truth. The gospel of adoption is the best antidote. Accept no substitutes! http://exposingadventism.com/content/facts/ http://askanadventist.com/content/questions/index.php Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 592 Registered: 5-2002 |
Just talk about Jesus, how wonderful He is and how secure you are in His salvation because the Lamb is worthy! Anytime religion is brought up, stay focused on your Lord and Savior and His merits and what He already did for you on the cross. I predict that you will see them try to change the subject or re-inject doubt into your confidence. Watch the "Yes, BUT"s fly! They may even get cranky with you continuing to focus on Jesus ALONE. If you can manage to stay within yourself, it can be a very eye-opening experience for you as to how un-confident they really are except within the confines of their church's prophet and her doctrines. When they try to bring you that way, simply bring them back to Christ. Loyal Adventists simply cannot tolerate the simple, wonderful Gospel. But preach it anyway! ALWAYS keep in the front of your mind that their veil can only lifted in Christ. Praying for you. Good luck! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9010 Registered: 12-2003  |
Floridagirl, I agree. Just keep talking about Jesus and the gospel. They will likely tire of the subject—but that's what they need. Ask God to prepare their hearts, to give you opportunities to speak, and to give you His wisdom. I suspect that you'll sense a new low-level discomfort yourself because for the first time it will be obvious that you're in different places regarding the Lord Jesus. When we know Him and are alive in Him, the exchange with people who are veiled to the true gospel is limited. It's a discomfort that is clear and understandable to you, but to them it will be more mystifying and uncomfortable. I know that my own MIL and FIL were, for the first time this week, open about why they don't like spending the holidays with us. Of course we've all known of the discomfort, but it was finally articulated. It's a relief, actually, to have it stated, but it's a division that can't be completely ignored. With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 730 Registered: 7-2005  |
I love the simple gospel. *sigh* Why, oh why, can't my Adventist husband appreciate it, too? The other day I overheard him talking on the phone to his SDA pastor. He said,"I know what you mean! [I have no idea what the pastor had just said, but get this...] I talk to people all the time who have a John 3:16 kind of religion. It's like a big umbrella that covers everything." I wanted to go up to him and say, "Well...DUH! Sheesh! Honestwitness | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 425 Registered: 11-2007 |
Adventists visiting for the holidays? I suppose a Honeybaked ham is out of the question but a nice turkey should start some conversation. And follow up dinner with coffee or tea and see how many of your adventist relatives go for it. Surfy | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 676 Registered: 5-2007 |
To whom can I speak and give warning? Who will listen to me? Their ears are closed so they cannot hear. The word of the LORD is offensive to them; they find no pleasure in it. Jeremiah 6:10 The [spiritually] blind receive sight, the [spiritually] lame walk, those who have [spiritually] leprosy [hey, that was our former selves!] are cured, the [spiritually] deaf hear, the [spiritually] dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me. Matthew 11:5,6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Matthew 18:6 Notice no mention made of the "little ones" needing to believe in anything Wm. Miller or Hiram Edsons private interpretations? That is a GOOD thing. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day [notice no sabbath requirements here]. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. John 6:53-57 "All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you [gossipy mouths kill] will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. John 16:1-3 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10 | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 226 Registered: 4-2007 |
I wouldn't have an Adventist for Thanksgiving, they may be turkeys but I'd rather have the real thing. John | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 680 Registered: 5-2007 |
Yeah John, have you ever tried to put the stuffing in an sda? LOL  | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9013 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hey, we don't need to insult our Adventist loved ones! I understand the pun (and I normally love puns!), but this does deliver a message we aren't intending for them to get. This subject is really on the surface for me right now. My in-laws actually won't come for Thanksgiving or Christmas this year—and this is after ten years of becoming more and more uncomfortable after we've left Adventism—and one of the stated reasons (although we both now it's a surface excuse) is not being able to tolerate the smell of turkey. Of course the reasons go far deeper—"I just want things to be like they used to be," was one comment we got. And things cannot be like they used to be. The deep loyalty to the Adventist illusion is stronger than mere filial attachment. Conversely, Adventists would say the same about us: We are loyal to what WE believe to be truth and are willing to sacrifice family. This whole thing always distills down to the same issue: what is truth? And when we know Jesus and realize that He IS TRUTH—and that He literally asks us to be willing to give up everything—even what we think is right—in order to embrace Him alone, absolutely everything and every relationship in our lives changes. It's a life-changing, life-wrenching situation(s)—but God is faithful, and He does give us Himself even when everyone else backs away. There's definite pain involved, and loss, and disillusionment. But being planted in truth and reality instead of deception is an amazing gift. Colleen | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 683 Registered: 5-2007 |
One of our weapons in truth is this, as applies to both Wm. Miller hand Hiram Edson: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. - 2 Peter 1:20 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9014 Registered: 12-2003 |
(And by the way, Jonvil and Larry, I understand this humor! It's almost easier to deal with our unresolved issues with Adventists by letting off steam with our special "gallows humor" than just to sit in the anger or sadness or frustration we feel so often!) Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1364 Registered: 11-2005 |
Good points, Colleen. When dealing with loved ones, we can win the battle but loose the war. Gilbert | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 686 Registered: 5-2007 |
Don't forget Gilbert, Jesus promised not to lose a single one that they Father gave Him. The war cannot be lost, in spite of our foibles. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 228 Registered: 4-2007 |
Colleen “Hey, we don't need to insult our Adventist loved ones! I understand the pun (and I normally love puns!), but this does deliver a message we aren't intending for them to get.” Sorry, I was envisioning my own Adventist family; cultural historic evangelical liberal conservative, depending on the situation. Colleen ”This subject is really on the surface for me right now. My in-laws actually won't come for Thanksgiving or Christmas this year—and this is after ten years of becoming more and more uncomfortable after we've left Adventism—and one of the stated reasons (although we both now it's a surface excuse) is not being able to tolerate the smell of turkey.” The smell of a roasting turkey is one of my all time favorites!! Colleen ”Of course the reasons go far deeper—"I just want things to be like they used to be," was one comment we got. And things cannot be like they used to be.” THERE IS NO GOING BACK Colleen ”The deep loyalty to the Adventist illusion is stronger than mere filial attachment. Conversely, Adventists would say the same about us: We are loyal to what WE believe to be truth and are willing to sacrifice family.” Has ANY former excluded a relative just because he/she is a SDA? I DON’T THINK SO! Colleen ”This whole thing always distills down to the same issue: what is truth? And when we know Jesus and realize that He IS TRUTH—and that He literally asks us to be willing to give up everything—even what we think is right—in order to embrace Him alone, absolutely everything and every relationship in our lives changes.” It is beyond sad when the person who accepts ‘saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone’ is deemed to be lacking truth…by a Christian Colleen ”It's a life-changing, life-wrenching situation(s)—but God is faithful, and He does give us Himself even when everyone else backs away. There's definite pain involved, and loss, and disillusionment. But being planted in truth and reality instead of deception is an amazing gift.” I kind of took the ‘damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead’, ‘que sara sara’, ‘no pain, no gain’ attitude. In other words, I closed my eyes, lowered my head and blundered on, and made it through unscathed. Any difficulties I’ve encountered were vastly outweighed by my gain. John | ||
| Mommamayi Registered user Username: Mommamayi Post Number: 668 Registered: 12-2007  |
Freefloridagirl, Potential questions to ask an Adventist, related to the health message: 1) How can the ideal diet make you Vit. B 12 deficient? 2) Adventists have considered the health message to be a sign validating EGW's inspiration. The Mormon's have a similar health message and believe that Joseph Smith was given this information ahead of his time, as a sign of his divine connection with God. How is it possible for them to both have received this from God? (Especially since Joseph Smith died in 1844, and EGW didn't get the health message until much later.) 3)During the late 1800's there was concern over the contamination of meat with tuberculosis. Improved meat inspection programs were instituted as a result. These days don't we seem to hear more worry about the safety of our vegetables - things like spinach and tomatoes, for example? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9015 Registered: 12-2003 |
John, I understand; I know you have significant (to you) Adventist family, and I admired how you've not looked back as you've journeyed over these last few months. It IS vastly worth all the difficulties! Colleen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 307 Registered: 2-2008 |
I have a question which may be farfetched: Because of more and more discussions of end time events... do you think Adventists may have a fear of socializing with Non-Adventists at this time? ~vivian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9032 Registered: 12-2003 |
Without doubt, Vivian. The sincere and observant among them definitely have a certain fear of this. In fact, I'm certain my in-laws' pulling away is partly because of the fear of world events and their conviction that the time of trouble is nearly upon them. My MIL has frequently referred to the fact that we're "living now in the antitypical Day of Atonement", and because of this, all worldly things must be put aside, just as the Israelites had to cleanse themselves and avoid all worldly (or even normal human) indulgences and influences on the Day of Atonement. I don't think your question is far-fetched at all. Just the other day Richard said to me that he believes his parents' intensifying discomfort with us is related to their fear of end-time events. Colleen | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 738 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen, ask MIL why the "antitypical Day of Atonement" is not a year for a Bible day? Since she is so interested in that little concept, make her prove that it should go 164 years! By what authority can she change a year for a day to a 164 years for a day? Ludicrous! |
