| Author | Message | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2008 |
In my area there is an Advent Christian Church. This is the denomination that split with the SDAs over the Sabbath and EGW. While I was transitioning out of Adventism over the past 6-12 months, I went on their website. I got a very different take on William Miller than EGW gave. Perusing their history, one quote from William Miller interested me particularly: "The first proof we have as it respects Christ's Second Coming, as to the time is in Daniel 8:14: 'Unto two thousand three hundred days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.' By 'days' we are to understand years; 'sanctuary' we understand as the church; 'cleansed' we may reasonably suppose means that complete redemption from sin, soul and body, after the resurrection, when Christ comes 'the second time, without sin, unto salvation.'” See http://www.adventchristian.org/Aboutus/OurHistory/tabid/91/Default.aspx Compare this to EGW in the Great Controversy: "Miller accepted the generally received view that in the Christian age the earth is the sanctuary..." (GC 324-325) EGW said Miller taught that the sanctuary was the earth. Miller taught that the church is the sanctuary on earth. My point? Despite his misunderstandings in other areas, at least William Miller showed a great deal more understanding of the New Covenant than EGW. In Acts 15, we find the early church interpreting the prophecies related to the re-building of the temple as referring to Jesus building His church, by which they meant people, not buildings. In Ephesians 2:19-21, Paul describes how Christians are being built up together as God's temple on earth. In 1 Cor 3:16, Paul says collectively to the church, "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?" In 1 Cor 6:19, we see the famous quote that "your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit," indicating that each individual is also God's temple on earth. In 1 Peter 2:4-5, we find: "As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." EGW was wrong: Miller did not teach that the Sanctuary was the earth. He taught, correctly, that the Sanctuary in the New Covenant is the Church, by which the Bible means people and not buildings (see for instance Acts 7:48). Perhaps a minor error on her part, but it does show that EGW had no understanding of the New Covenant, even by the standard of her own time. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 675 Registered: 5-2007 |
What I find interesting is that with the failure of 1844 to materialize the second coming of Jesus, those who would be unrepentant and move on to become sda necessarily embraced a private interpretation that only one man came up with, and his name was Hiram Edson. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20 Early sda's violated "no man knows the day or hour", then moved on to violate principles of private interpretation. I am sure they have violated many more, as they will not submit to the pure gospel. Without Hiram Edsons private interpretation, they would have had to repent of the whole mess and once again submit to scripture. I would like to see how these "Advent Christian Church" people explain their way around private interpretation! | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2008 |
The Advent Christians don't explain their way around it. They don't believe in the IJ. They admit that Miller was wrong. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 677 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am wondering, do you see these people as telling the truth in any manor?
Timesetting a MAJOR point, but just not monomania, right? Isn't that a way of fibbing, all the while ignoring the fact that "no man knows the day or hour"? They must not realize that 1% poison mixed with 99% good food is still 100% poison!
Does this statement have connotations of the occult to in your estimation? It certainly sounds like it to me. Where does the Bible talk about spells being a good thing?
The devil invades, uninvited. We are not told that the gospel invades, in scripture.
Question: How come Miller is seen to have his own believers when Martin Luther championed righteousness by faith 300 years prior? Perhaps Miller was teaching something in addition to the gospel, such as definite time??
I would like to see proof of that. Why is the 1844 movement not in their names, instead instead of Wm. Millers??
Sounds like a big fat lie now. Miller never used his charts LINK with the number "2520" emblazoned on them?? Why then do we have charts showing such things? Here is a link that describes a minister, JOHN DOWLING, Pastor of the Pine-street Baptist Church that wrote directly against Miller in 1840!! LINK the very first line goes like this: "Mr. Miller is not the first expounder of prophecy that has attempted dogmatically to decide upon the very year of the coming of Christ." Simply put, the people who put up that website at adventchristian.org are either deceived, or are attempting to deceive others. Either way it is from the devil.
And the proof offered is .... what?
Such a lie. To this day the picture of Millerites is one of a people who got deceived, and those Millerites who would not repent became sda's and "advent christians" -- both deceived.
Why fade from leadership if all they were teaching was the Gospel? When I tried to click on "What we believe" button, I just get the same "Man named Miller" page. Pathetic. Keep in mind that Millers message was never about the seventh day sabbath. Naturally, the people who would go on to be sda's would be deceived about yet another "time", that being a day of the week. Deceived nonetheless. It matters not a whit to the truth that there are still some Millerite enthusiasts out there that never moved on to adventizm!! 
By their website that cannot be proven, as their "What we believe" option does not work. Maybe you know of another site that tells us exactly what they believe the Gospel to be?? | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2008 |
"I am wondering, do you see these people as telling the truth in any manor?" Not particularly. Though I doubt they are intentionally lying. Just like, when we were SDAs, we honestly believed the lies we were taught. My point was just the difference of Miller's own words versus EGWs representation thereof. As for their beliefs: Confirm the National Association of Evangelicals' statement of faith. (http://www.adventchristian.org/Aboutus/Whatwebelieve/NationalAssociationofEvangelicalsStatement/tabid/97/Default.aspx) Scriptural Confession of Faith. http://www.adventchristian.org/Aboutus/Whatwebelieve/AScripturalConfessionofFaith/tabid/93/Default.aspx They affirm the Apostolic Creed. http://www.adventchristian.org/Aboutus/Whatwebelieve/TheApostlesCreed/tabid/96/Default.aspx Advent Christian Declaration of Principles. http://www.adventchristian.org/Aboutus/Whatwebelieve/TheAdventChristianDeclarationofPrinciples/tabid/95/Default.aspx Seems from the last one that they hold to soul sleep and annihilationism, but not the Sabbath. The part about the "conditions" of salvation of course bothers me, but it seems to be the typical error of hyper Arminianism. Again, my point is that EGW wasn't correct on what Miller actually taught vis-a-vis the Sanctuary. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 679 Registered: 5-2007 |
I wonder if the advent christians could point out were sda-izm has gone astray!! Any light on that?
Here is the rub: If they teach another gospel, thus not being justified by God, God sees them as He does any other kind of liar or sinner. Does NOT matter a hoot to God whether they "mean to" or not. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2008 |
"I wonder if the advent christians could point out were sda-izm has gone astray!! Any light on that?" I don't know much about them, but I'd say it is the same as when the two groups first split: Disagreement over the Sabbath and EGW. And they obviously don't buy the IJ either, but I think the split happened before the IJ. "Here is the rub: If they teach another gospel, thus not being justified by God, God sees them as He does any other kind of liar or sinner. Does NOT matter a hoot to God whether they "mean to" or not." I think there is a difference between believing something that one doesn't realize is untrue, and ignoring the prodding of the Holy Spirit once you've been convicted of the falsehood. We aren't justified before God by the facts we know, per se, but by the Person we trust. For instance, the early church originally thought the Gospel was only for Jews, and was to be combined with the Law of Moses. This actually went on for a number of years, before Peter had his famous vision and then saw the Holy Spirit pour Himself out on a bunch of Gentiles. So were the very early Christians not justified? Was Peter a liar? No, he was just still learning. Paul says to the Galatians that anyone who teaches a different Gospel is accursed. But I think we should take that in context: He is writing to a group of Christians who had already been given the correct New Covenant Gospel. It was not that they hadn't heard or been taught by the Holy Spirit, but that they were straying from what they knew to be true. My point is that there is a bit of a nuance between having faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, and having all your facts perfectly straight on every point of theology. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 685 Registered: 5-2007 |
Please tell me how Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, and the Holy Spirit who will lead us into all truth, are going to have many people believe many nuanced gospels! How many gospels are there? | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2008 |
I didn't say there is a nuanced Gospel. I'm saying that there is a distinction between having every fact about God correct and having faith in Jesus for salvation. Or were Peter and other early Jewish Christians unjustified before the Cornelius thing happened? Luther had his doctrinal differences with Zwingli about the Lord's Supper. Which of the two was condemned to hell in your view? (Message edited by bskillet on November 20, 2008) | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 687 Registered: 5-2007 |
Skillet, are we saved by having all our facts about God correct? Last I checked, His way and thoughts are not our ways and thoughts. Why would you even posit the sentiment? Tell me how Peter could have been lost, being that he was wrong about this or that? He was elected to be saved, Jesus promised to be the author and finisher of Peters faith, and Jesus promised not to lose a single one that the Father gave Him. Please explain how Peter was ever in danger of losing his salvation. You don't know much about advent christians, why do you expect me to know about Luther and Zwingli about the Lords supper? Does my view on them affect my salvation? or yours? | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 689 Registered: 5-2007 |
We have the promise that the Holy Spirit WILL lead the elect, the chosen, into all truth. He will not fail. How do you know that advent christians have ignored any proddings? How do you know ellen white ever had such proddings? To say that their were proddings, and that the Holy Spirit was unsuccessful, is to say that God fails in certain instances. God chooses us, we do not choose Him. We take no part in the glory just like the lost coin took no part and could not refuse to be found, or the lost sheep refusing to be found. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2008 |
"Tell me how Peter could have been lost, being that he was wrong about this or that? He was elected to be saved, Jesus promised to be the author and finisher of Peters faith, and Jesus promised not to lose a single one that the Father gave Him. Please explain how Peter was ever in danger of losing his salvation." I don't think you're understanding my point. First, I wasn't saying Peter would lose his salvation. My point is that salvation is not a matter of having every fact correct. Peter clearly did not have all of his facts in order about the New Covenant before his vision. Yet he was still saved even then. You made the blanket statement that Advent Christians are unjustified before God because of their beliefs about Miller. I am countering that such a blanket statement is not necessarily correct because it doesn't admit the possibility that a Christian might be saved while not having all his facts perfectly in order. "Skillet, are we saved by having all our facts about God correct? Last I checked, His way and thoughts are not our ways and thoughts. Why would you even posit the sentiment?" I'm not saying salvation requires us to have our facts correct. I am saying the opposite. "You don't know much about advent christians, why do you expect me to know about Luther and Zwingli about the Lords supper? Does my view on them affect my salvation? or yours?" Well, Zwingli and Luther never reached common ground on the real presence of Christ in the Supper. Zwingli was correct (but that's not my greater point here). Does that mean Luther believed another Gospel and was thus under God's curse? Doubtful. I'm saying that just because someone doesn't have all their facts straight vis-a-vis the historical aspects of William Miller's movement, doesn't mean that person is necessarily under the power of Satan. My point is that blanket statements about Advent Christians' salvation because of their recounting of their history is a bit too much for me to agree to. And as I said before, they don't still affirm Miller's proofs, and don't believe in the IJ, or EGW, or the Sabbath. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2008 |
"How do you know that advent christians have ignored any proddings? How do you know ellen white ever had such proddings?" I never said I know anything regarding how the Spirit works in the lives of Advent Christians. I am saying that they are not necessarily unjustified before God and under the power of Satan because of their understanding of the history of the Millerites. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2526 Registered: 10-2004  |
Bskillet, I agree with you there--although, it is disconcerting to see how they continue to honor a proven false prophet (Miller), centuries after his prophecies failed. In fact, what reason did they have to continue to exist as a separate denomination? These things should be red flags which cause people to look a bit further. And when you do, you discover that they don't believe in the Trinity and that they don't believe in the Gospel (salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone), but instead they teach salvation by faith plus works. They also teach the heresies of soul sleep (or outright soul-denial, it looks like) and annihilationism. It is not Christianity. Thus, these things place them in the category of being a cult, rather than a Christian church. As far as the Apostle Peter, I don't see any evidence that he didn't believe in salvation by grace through faith. In fact, at the Acts 15 Council, he made it very clear (verses 7-11) that he believed salvation was by grace alone through faith alone. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on November 20, 2008) | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 15 Registered: 8-2008 |
"As far as the Apostle Peter, I don't see any evidence that he didn't believe in salvation by grace through faith." I agree on this point. But what I'm saying is that getting theology perfectly straight isn't identical with faith in Jesus. Peter believed in Jesus, and was justified by that faith, at the same time that he didn't know God intended the Gospel to go to the Gentiles. "And when you do, you discover that they don't believe in the the Trinity and that they don't believe in the Gospel (salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone)..." Generally that tends to be the case with cults. In this particular instance, it appears they affirm the Trinity. OTOH, I thought the SDA church affirmed the Trinity, until I learned the true understanding of the Trinity and realized SDAs are tritheists. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2528 Registered: 10-2004 |
In their official statement of beliefs that you linked to above, they don't affirm the Trinity (or even that Jesus is eternal or the Creator), and in fact, the statement implies a denial of it: http://www.adventchristian.org/Aboutus/Whatwebelieve/TheAdventChristianDeclarationofPrinciples/tabid/95/Default.aspx I do see that they have the National Association of Evangelicals' statement on their website, also, though. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on November 20, 2008) | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 690 Registered: 5-2007 |
How would you resolve them believing that war is contrary to Jesus, yet Jesus ordains your government? They speak out of boths sides of mouth, like sda and Miller do! One could conclude that they believe the USA is not properly constituted constituted, God made a mistake.
What is meant by "approximate time"? Miller thought he knew approximate time also! What approximate time do you agree with? Or do you believe it when Acts 1 says: 6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. Does it seem natural to submit to the advent christian teaching or will you submit to scripture?
What is this about a future probation? Do they claim that we are on probation now? Because that is exactly what ellen white the false prophetess teaches! Do they think Wm. Miller was a service to God by timesetting? Remember, inflexible rules! Miller said in his so called letter of apology that he would do it all over again. He said nobody had brought convincing evidence against his theories! Skillet, what do you think of all their lies and prevarication I pointed out in my post 677? Is the truth really served by their lies? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9017 Registered: 12-2003  |
Bskillet, I admit I'm a bit confused here. Are you worshiping with the Advent Christian Church, or did you only research them? I'll admit that your initial point was interesting to me, that whatever else may be said about William Miller, the ACC, and EGW, it does appear that EGW had her own private interpretation of William Mller which she "sold" to generations of Adventists. That point aside, I also find it interesting how much overlap there is between cults. JWs, SDAs, ACCs, etc believe in soul sleep, annhiliation, etc. They are all based on unbiblical interpretations and charismatic leaders. And while I agree that technically a person can be alive in Christ and still entangled in some faulty theology, I also believe that the Holy Spirit will not leave them in the dark. If they stay in the dark even though they have the Scripture and the Holy Spirit's teaching, I question their experience... I recognize that God has His own timetable, and I can't say why He waited until I was in my 40s to make the gospel clear (perhaps I was resistant...! For sure God brought me to a place of recognizing my incurable sinfulness before I really understood the gospel...) but others recognize the gospel and experience life in Jesus much sooner. Colleen | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 701 Registered: 5-2007 |
Yep Colleen. Sometimes we just have to reflect how utterly DEAD in sin we were! Tee hee, it is amazing! Now we have passed from utter death and depravity to everlasting life and purity in Gods eyes! That is even more amazing! Wowsers. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 16 Registered: 8-2008 |
"Bskillet, I admit I'm a bit confused here. Are you worshiping with the Advent Christian Church, or did you only research them? " I've never met with them. I was just researching them. Their story of Miller is quite different from what EGW says, but too accomodating of Miller anyway. I think some here are a bit confused. I'm not defending their theology or their recount of history. Larry, I think their point on salvation is, as you mentioned, very much a matter of the definitions of words. But I've seen enough bad Christianity to know that invariably those words are defined improperly, regardless of the particular denomination. The "conditions" of salvation is troubling. The only "condition" the Bible puts on salvation is faith in Jesus Christ, which is something God accomplishes in us through the Holy Spirit (Eph. 2:8,9). In Protestant soteriology, repentance means the change of heart into revulsion to sin and love of God brought about by the regeneration given by the Holy Spirit. Repentance is something Jesus does in us. In SDA theology, repentance means never sinning again. I don't know enough about these people to know where they are, but their article on salvation is far more troubling to me than on soul sleep or their history of Miller. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 708 Registered: 5-2007 |
B. Skillet, I had another thought on the above declaration. How would they parse the fact that the old testament is full of war and killing? How can they consider Old Testament Israel a properly constituted goverment? Do they think their Lord and Master, Jesus Christ was not at the helm of all Israelites warring that they were commanded to perform? I wonder what they make of this scripture: But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth - John 16:13 Can they honestly claim that the Spirit of truth was attending Israel? Who do they think the Spirit of truth is? It is truely laughable what these people say and claim to believe. And I'd bet you a steak dinner that they practice the same exact brand of confusion -- that of redefining words and terms -- as do the sda's, for their father (Wm. Miller) did the same thing as does the father of all confusion, the father of miscommunicative Babylon itself. When words no longer have a certain meaning, you have a Babylon on your hands! | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 709 Registered: 5-2007 |
Can you prove that? Or are you taking a small group of adventchristians word for it? How does that proclaimed belief actually fit into the timesetting, for the world to end, in both 1843 and 1844? You know, it does not matter if you find 10 more small groups of people, all with different takes on Miller. If they will not come right out and state that Miller was deceived, they have no case. Miller clearly went against scripture when he ignored repeated warnings that "no man knows the day or hour". | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 710 Registered: 5-2007 |
If it was me living where you are, I would start meeting with them, just to find out what they really say and think. I bet it would shed tremendous light on the subject. Of course one would need to be grounded in scripture, and be ready to discover heresy. Does this sound like an exciting project to you? | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2008 |
"Does this sound like an exciting project to you?" Haha! Maybe some day. But for now I don't feel the need. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 717 Registered: 5-2007 |
BSkillet, beings that they really don't see what is wrong with general timesetting, I bet they are right now saying things of that nature, what with the financial problems, liberal president-elect, and multiple warfronts. It'd be interesting if you had the fortitude. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 764 Registered: 5-2007 |
Bskillet, Please read this link when you have an hour to spare. It was written 4 years before 1844, by a minister who opposed Millers teachings. I wonder why? Miller considered the sanctuary of Daniel 8 to be earth, not a church. That is why he was so cocksure that Jesus would come in 1844. How come the adventchristians don't link to, or reprint Minister Dowlings 1840 report, after all, it is a historical account of one mans dealings with their own Miller. I wonder why the sda's do not reprint all stuff related to Miller, after all it is their roots!! Read all about it: http://www.ex-sda.com/dowling.htm |
