| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1362 Registered: 11-2005 |
Ask An Adventist - Adventism Question #15 If the General Conference is the highest authority God has upon the earth, and Ellen’s authority is higher than the GC, then what does that make Ellen? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 682 Registered: 5-2007 |
Obviously they are claiming for themselves something even weightier than their doctrinal "continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction" "highest authority God has upon the earth" means even higher than scripture, and higher than the Holy Spirit who is God. The essentially put themselves over God Himself, a blasphemy. Does anybody really doubt that adventism will figure into the beast power and the mark of the beast? | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2008 |
How is the GC not the SDA papacy then? It seems ironic to me that SDAs can so vehemently ridicule the Roman Catholic Church while at the same time espousing doctrines on salvation, church authority, and the authority of Scripture that are basically identical. Catholicism: Pope God's highest authority on earth. Adventism: GC God's highest authority on earth. Catholicism: Scripture plus the writings of the Church Fathers, Cannon Law, and Papal Writings. Adventism: Scripture plus the writings of Ellen White and the "Church Manual." Catholicism: Salvation by cooperating with the Holy Spirit to perfectly keep the law and thus become justified. Adventism: Salvation by cooperating with the Holy Spirit to perfectly keep the law and thus become justified. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1365 Registered: 11-2005 |
Bskillet, Those are excellent observations. Catholicism and Adventism have much in common -- more than most Adventists realize. Exposing Adventism - Another truly catholic organization, Adventism Quote: "The (ASI - Adventist Laymen's Services and Industries) convention concluded with a banquet in which Robert Muller, associate secretary of the United Nations, was the featured speaker. He is called the United Nations' "prophet of hope" and has a vibrant and optimistic philosophy of life. His wife, Margarita, accompanied him, and they discovered that there is another universal and truly catholic organization, the Seventh-day Adventist Church." (GC President Neal Wilson, From the President: Cooperation and Interaction, Adventist Review, March 5, 1981, page 3) Quote: "Structure. At the local conference level the Seventh-day Adventist Church has a representative form of government. Above that level the polity of the Seventh-day Adventist Church is hierarchical: Authority flows downward and members in local congregations have virtually no voice. Above that level, the Seventh-day Adventist Church is a closed, self-operating, and self-perpetuating system similar to the Roman Catholic Church, in which those in authority are not responsible to lower echelons. Above the local conference level, those in authority are not elected by, representative of, or administratively accountable to, local congregations or the membership at large." (Raymond Cottrell, associate editor of the SDA Bible Commentary, Spectrum, March 1984, page 42) Quote: "Next to the Roman Catholic Church, the Adventist church is the most centralized of all the major denominations in the country." (Judge William T. Hart, 1984, presiding over a court case involving the Harris Pine Mills, an asset owned by the SDA church) Quote: "Our work is not to denounce the Roman Catholic Church." (Neal Wilson, General Conference President, Pacific Union Recorder, February 18, 1985) Quote: "Although it is true that there was a period, in the life of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, when the denomination took a distinctly anti-Roman Catholic viewpoint, and the term 'hierarchy' was used in a pejorative sense to refer to the papal form of church governance, that attitude on the church's part was nothing more than a manifestation of widespread anti-popery attitude among conservative Protestant denominations in the early part of this century and the latter part of the last, and which has now been consigned to the historical trash heap so far as the SDA Church is concerned." (Neal Wilson, General Conference President, EEOC vs PPPA and GC, Civil Case #74-2025 CBR, 1975) Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 693 Registered: 5-2007 |
From one deceived cult, and seized upon by another deceived cult. Two wrongs don't make a right. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 733 Registered: 7-2005  |
Gilbert, is there someplace online that you find these quotes? Or do you have an entire library of archival Adventist publications in your house? I'm especially interested in finding a non-Former source where I can send my husband to see these quotes. I think they might just do the trick to crack the armor. But, I don't think I could get him to visit a Former website, much as I admire your various websites. Honestwitness | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1370 Registered: 11-2005 |
A good book to start with is Early Writings. One cannot read it cover-to-cover without coming to the conclusion that Ellen White belonged in a mental institution. Your husband does not need to read anyone else's writings. Most Adventists have never really "met" the real Ellen White. The denomination promotes a "sanitized" version with a "wax nose". Even the airbrushed drawings that we see don't show the damage that the rock did to her nose. Remember, she was in a coma for two weeks! Even Ellen White's nose is a myth. Look at the photo published in Auther White's "The Early Elmshaven Years", vol 5, which depicts Ellen White with a retouched nose and normal bridge. Elder W. A. Colcord, Secretary of the General Conference, vigorously protested the publishing of retouched photographs. On February 29, 1928, he wrote E. S. Ballenger: "I am glad to see that you are getting after W. C. White. ... No doubt he was the one who had his mother's picture doctored up to represent her having a beautiful, long, straight nose. ... (It is) a misrepresentation that covers up the deformity caused by an all but fatal blow in childhood which later brought on her epilepsy and ... fits mistaken for visions. .. For many years he has figured in these misrepresentations and defenses of his mother." It is critical that sincere seeking Adventists read what she wrote before it had a chance to get sanitized and explained away by Uriah Smith, the White Estate and current apologists and spin-meisters. Honestwitness, during the last six months that I attended the SDA Church I would take my Bible and the red-covered copy of Early Writings with me to Sabbath School and Church. I would ask everyone that I could find to read pages 55-56 in my open red copy of Earl Writings, and then exxplain to me if they believed Satan is now in heaven answering the prayers of non-Adventists. Most of the Adventists there just shook there heads and said that they had not seen that quote. (End of discussion, in other words, "Leave me in my ignorance.") Thoses who were more alarmed might go the White Estate to see what excuse they had, and return with that the following week. I recommend the following books read cover to cover. 1. Original red-covered copy of Early Writings. 2. Original volumes of the Testimonies. There is no way a person can actually apply these teachings without becoming a candidate for a mental hospital. Here are just a few examples: http://exposingadventism.com/content/facts/satan_in-heaven-answering-prayers.php http://exposingadventism.com/content/facts/recreation_play-picnics-discarded.php http://exposingadventism.com/content/facts/prayer_doesnt-benefit-wicked.php http://exposingadventism.com/content/facts/end-times_catholic-procession-surrounds-ellens-house.php I propose that your husband's problem is that he doesn't really know what Ellen White wrote. The same holds true for Mormons and Joseph Smith. He has been fed a quote here, and a quote there. Ellen White has been "proof-texted" in the same way that Adventists "proof-text" the Bible. Don't read any compilations. Start with Early Writings cover-to-cover followed by the volumes of the Testimonies. How many Adventists read the Testimonies. Didn't Ellen White state that one of the devil's last efforts would be to make the Testimonies of non-effect? It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction. (Testimonies, Vol 4, page 211)Doesn't your husband's not reading and following what she wrote accomplish the same? Your husband is a middle-of-the-road Adventist. That is where most Adventists stay to deal with the cognative dissonance. They avoide really reading and following this so-called "instruction from God" because it would require a radical overhaul of their values. They don't want to study because they are afraid that what they might find out might cause them to leave Adventism. Above all, Honestwitness, we are here to pray for you and hubby, and support you in any way that we can. No non-Adventist sources are required -- just an honest study of Ellen White's own Early Writings and Testimonies to the Church. Your brother in Christ, Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 734 Registered: 7-2005 |
Interestingly enough, Gilbert, we do have Early Writings and several volumes of the Testimonies. All have red covers. I remember trying to read these books from cover to cover many years ago, in my early years as an Adventist. I couldn't finish any of them. They are too horrific. However, even though hubby purchased the red books, I have never seen him read any Adventist books, except the compilations. I have shared with hubby many times (in the past) my objections to Adventist doctrine. However, in the past, I also told him I found some of White's writings very inspiring. All he ever heard or wants to hear from me is approval of Adventism. He has always completely ignored any disapproval I have ever expressed. It has been eighteen years now that he has known of my growning list of objections to Adventism. If there is any questioning on his part, he has never shared it with me. Thank you very much for your prayers. Honestwitness | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 735 Registered: 7-2005 |
Gilbert, other than your web site, where can I find this quote? Where did YOU find it? I'd like to be able to get this quote from a source that is not published by a Former Adventist, so hubby will have no reason to suspect it was misquoted or manufactured. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Although it is true that there was a period, in the life of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, when the denomination took a distinctly anti-Roman Catholic viewpoint, and the term 'hierarchy' was used in a pejorative sense to refer to the papal form of church governance, that attitude on the church's part was nothing more than a manifestation of widespread anti-popery attitude among conservative Protestant denominations in the early part of this century and the latter part of the last, and which has now been consigned to the historical trash heap so far as the SDA Church is concerned." (Neal Wilson, General Conference President, EEOC vs PPPA and GC, Civil Case #74-2025 CBR, 1975) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Honestwitness | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 711 Registered: 5-2007 |
HW, I searched google for some hits (LINK) and it seems that only those who attack adventism use that particular quote. I think the sda organization is smart enough to keep it off their websites! It doesn't serve them in any manner. I suppose you could order a copy of Civil Case #74-2025 CBR, 1975 from some legal source, but having never done that I cannot advise any further. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1373 Registered: 11-2005 |
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1W1GGLL_en&q=%22historical+trash+heap%22+pejorative&btnG=Search Steps2Life is a very pro Adventist site. I first heard about the statement from Vance Ferrel's newsletter back in the early '80s. Gilbert | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1374 Registered: 11-2005 |
Honestwitness, do you attend a Christian fellowship each week? That is very important for your own self-esteem and ability to connect with other Christians. The next step is to work out some sort of arrangement where you can entice hubby to come with you. He needs the exposure. It sounds like at present he has nothing to compare Adventism with. What do you think? Gilbert | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1187 Registered: 5-2007  |
Speaking of Vance Ferrell, is he still alive? Whatever happened to him? Phil | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1375 Registered: 11-2005 |
His current site is at http://sdadefend.com/ According to http://sdadefend.com/Reports.htm Vance Ferrell was alive as recently as July 2008. http://sdadefend.com/MINDEX-D/Dreams-EKnoll.pdf | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 736 Registered: 7-2005 |
Larry and Gilbert, thanks for the links. I took a quick look at them and will ponder whether they might be well received. Gilbert, for the past two years, I have attended a wonderful Evangelical Presbyterian church each week. Also, most of my extended family is and has always been very loving, very stable Protestant Christians of the Sunday church variety. Hubby has been exposed to them for the past 18 years at frequent family gatherings. My family has known of my objections to Adventism since shortly after I joined the church, but they have stayed neutral about them and said nothing to hubby all these years. Hubby has visited my church twice, once for a Christmas cantata and once for a holiday party. He plans to attend this year's Christmas cantata, as well, and plans to bring with him the only folks from his church (a married couple about our age) who have kept up any kind of contact with me, since I left. Hubby has PLENTY with which to compare Adventism. Did you see my post in another thread where I shared how I overheard him speaking on the phone to his SDA pastor? Here's what I wrote: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ The other day I overheard him talking on the phone to his SDA pastor. He said,"I know what you mean! [I have no idea what the pastor had just said, but get this...] I talk to people all the time who have a John 3:16 kind of religion. It's like a big umbrella that covers everything." I wanted to go up to him and say, "Well...DUH!" _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ By this, I understand that he not only has witnessed my Christian family's lifestyle for the past 18 years, but has also been receiving Christian witness from people at work. He's a very hard nut to crack! Honestwitness | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1376 Registered: 11-2005 |
Wow! That is quite a testimony. Praise God that you have a well grounded family background. Gilbert |
