| Author |
Message |
Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie
Post Number: 96
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 12:05 am: |     |
Asurprise, you said:
"whenever you try to think about Jesus and the gospel, is it like running up against a blank wall where it gets hard to even continue thinking about Christianity? "
Well, yes, I think that might be a good way to describe it--a brick wall! At least a brick wall as far as MY understanding goes. Even when I was a little kid, I had difficulty with concepts that didn't seem to make sense, that required that I just let go of my intellectual capacity and 'trust'. Particularly if it seems that I'm being asked to trust something that is clearly going against my best interest. I suppose I'm a strong-minded person, very unwilling to be coerced or 'guilted' into anything. And I'm quite certain that THAT comes from my SDA upbringing! I spent so many years of my life looking to outside authorities for answers and directions in my life. So many years complying and appeasing and pleasing. All to no avail, I might add! It was not until just the last few years that I could even begin to conceive that I am a full-fledged adult, and as such, I have a 'God-given' right to think for myself, and decide for myself what I think, what I believe, how I want to live my life. People think it's strange when I say that. I think it's a concept that most folks don't question--even Christians. So, yes, Christianity understood as trust and 'surrender' to an outside authority goes against everything I now hold very dear.
Please understand, I have nothing against most of the ethics of Christianity. I agree that many of the ideals taught by Jesus are admirable and worthy (if not always realistically possible for human beings to put into practice). I believe in compassion and caring about others, being kind, helpful, thoughtful, etc. I think that these things come quite naturally to human beings... unless they have had the misfortune to have experienced cruelty and betrayal and ill-treatment that cause them to lose trust in other human beings. I would say I even still believe in the 'turn the other cheek' and 'love your enemy' concepts... up to a point. Although, I'll confess, as my life has gone in the recent months, I am definitely reconsidering those for something a little more along the lines of, shall we say, self-preservation?!
So I guess you could say, I have no beef at all with Christianity as an ethical and philosophical system and way of life. My problem is when it comes to giving up my mind and my well-being to it. Been there, done that, never again, thank you very much. I just don't want anything to do with a God who would demand that, and truthfully, I guess I don't really believe a God who would demand that would be much of a God. To me, 'made in God's image' has to mean freedom and ownership of my own mind, not a slave to an ideology and to those who would use those very ideals against me.
Sorry if I've ranted too long. Right now, I am really fighting to hang onto a belief in myself, my integrity, and my self-respect. Long story short, my whole life has recently been turned upside down, and it has forced me to really start examining and asking: What do I really believe in, if anything. Right now? Precious little. Look at it as a clean slate, my sister sister says--the chance to start over and re-define everything this time, for MYSELF. I will listen to other opinions, but in truth, right now, I trust no one and nothing, except my own mind, to have my best interest at heart.
Thanks for 'listening',
Joyce |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 959
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 6:07 am: | |
Joyce, back to the subject of "hearing God's voice." I don't doubt Diana's experience, but I think 99.99% of the time when a Christian says they "hear God's voice" they do not and never have audibly heard God. I never have, most Christians I know never have, and I don't believe the Bible teaches God speaks that way to every person. Even Diana says it was only twice in her life, so it can't be the "normal" experience for Christians.
I do hestiate to use that term because it can be confusing unless audibly is exactly what is meant. What I think Christians normally mean with that term, and I have experienced, is a deep "spiritual sense" of God's leading and direction. It is very difficult to explain, because it is not a physical thing. And because it can't be physically proven, a person can only compare this impression with what the Bible teaches, and if it is not in conflict, trust it is God. (And I have no idea how that could have worked out when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac! I know there are seeming conflicts in Christianity, but I would say Abraham literally, audibly heard God's voice, and then knew God so well by that point he had no reason to question if it was God or not.)
I know what you mean about being unwilling to trust anyone or anything, and feeling you have the right to have complete ownership of your mind. For me, that is true only within other human relationships. I am willing to let God have complete ownership of my mind and all of me, because He is the only trustworthy One in the universe. There is so much I can never understand and don't need to, because He is the author and finisher of my faith, and He is completing everything He has begun in me.
I'm praying for God to give you faith, because it's certainly nothing that can be faked or brought about by any human, including yourself. God's timing can't be understood, but I think there is something to the idea that God often waits until a person is at the point where there is nothing left to trust.
I recall a time in my life when I begged God to show Himself to me and angrily told Him what I wanted Him to do, if He exisited, if He cared about me, etc. I think the reason none of that worked was God wanted me to learn I'm not in charge of what God does or doesn't do - in His timing, when I was least expecting it, He changed my heart and opened my eyes. And it wasn't through anything visibly miraculous, just a changed heart that believed and wanted to learn as much as possible directly from the Bible. And that happened several years before leaving the SDA church. |
Surfy
Registered user
Username: Surfy
Post Number: 438
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 8:57 am: | |
Joyce, I saw your post over on Facebook so I would like to comment on it here as well as a few thoughts on prayer.
On prayer: Not everyone is a strong prayer warrior. Prayer happens to be one of my weak points in my spiritual life. I do not like to pray in front of people. I spend time in prayer but would not be what you would call "good" at it. No big deal for me. I realized, a long time ago, that my prayers take the form of worship. It helps that I am a musician and can express myself that way..either in private or in public. Some are called for prayer just as some are called to heal or preach.
Prayer is not necessarily about a feeling. When one relies on feelings to confirm certainty and faith, one could be waiting a long time instead of reaching out and grasping the joy and the life that is avaliable.
The Christian life is really very simple. Churches and their doctrines muddle it up. Acts 16 has a guard asking, "What must I do to be saved?" and the reply..."Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved--you and your household." That simple...believe...not feel or wish or anguish try to be good or whatever. Believe.
John 20. Jesus to Thomas, "Stop doubting and believe." and Thomas' reply, "My Lord and my God."
Not do. Not feel. Not think. Not be convinced beyond the shadow af a doubt. BELIEVE.
Adventists especially muck it up. You have to do this. You have to do that. You have to eat this and can't eat that. You have to keep this day holy. It's no wonder that a lot of people leaving adventism just chuck it and walk away from God, too. I was one of them. Adventists left such a bad taste in my mouth that I didn't want anything to to do with Christians of any kind. I was so convinced that you had to keep the sabbath to be saved and there was NO POSSIBLE way that I was going back to the adventist church that I told myself that I must get used to the idea of being lost. I was on the road to hell but at least I was enjoying the ride. That sort of thing. PTL. He had other plans for me.
In a nutshell, that is my thoughts on prayer and people who leave the adventist church and do not end up in a Sunday church.
Surfy |
Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie
Post Number: 97
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 11:12 am: | |
Raven, can I ask you why you consider God to be "the only trustworthy One in the universe"? Is that simply based on what the Bible says? Or do you also really feel it/believe it yourself? In other words, is your faith based on a belief about the Bible, or is it based on what you experience as 'real'? I have finally had to admit, (and I used to be afraid to tell people this) that the reason I can't make a leap of faith for the God of the Bible is because, what if it's right? If all that were to turn out to be true (and mind you, I'm not at all convinced that it is), well, not to offend anyone here, but I really don't like the God of the Bible very much. I'm okay with Jesus, and of course the idea of a 'comforter/holy spirit', but I have a strong visceral reaction to the so-called 'justice' of the vengeful, wrath-filled God of the Bible. It seems that he's just not a very nice guy, and Jesus has to run interference to keep him from condemning us all. And for what? Merely having been born. So, even though I like to think there might be a creator/sustainer of the Universe, I sure don't want it to be Yahweh!
Surfy, may I comment on some of your ideas? I have been similarly advised by my sister (who is 100% NOT a Christian) that I can't trust my feelings. But I find this about as puzzling as anything I've ever heard. Because, if I can't trust my feelings, what else do I have? I would have to turn outside myself to some other kind of authority. And who's to say whether these other authorities have got it any more right than me? Besides, I did this for years, living out the biblical principles that I describe as 'doing the right thing' and believe me, that did NOT work out for me. I feel now that I want to learn a new way of thinking that will help keep me from being continually taken advantage of, but I just don't know what that could be. Honestly, I'm really tired of 'loving my enemy' and 'giving till it hurts'! (And, P.S., where was God when all this was going on???)
I think maybe what is being accepted as a given here, but hasn't really been discussed, is an overall acceptance by the folks on this forum of the Bible as the end-all/be-all answer book. And maybe they just don't realize that I don't. This is fine.... for those who believe that way. But it still leaves me out in the cold because, for me, 'trusting the Bible' or 'trusting God' amounts to the same thing as trusting any other outside authority (i.e., outside my own mind). I have used my powers of reason to try to find answers, but I truly don't find anything about the Bible that would make me accept it as somehow 'special' or 'different' or above all other 'authorities.' I just don't see it that way, and haven't for a very long time, probably since I was a little kid, if then. As I've noted above, biblical principles for dealing with life and other human beings seems to have just gotten me, shall we say... 'used and abused'. And right now, I don't want to just believe for the sake of having a belief. I want to FEEL better. And know it's real, not just wishful thinking or hoping.
Thanks, everyone, for your input.
Joyce |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2537
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 12:01 pm: | |
Joyce,
You wrote:
quote:If all that were to turn out to be true (and mind you, I'm not at all convinced that it is), well, not to offend anyone here, but I really don't like the God of the Bible very much. I'm okay with Jesus, and of course the idea of a 'comforter/holy spirit', but I have a strong visceral reaction to the so-called 'justice' of the vengeful, wrath-filled God of the Bible. It seems that he's just not a very nice guy, and Jesus has to run interference to keep him from condemning us all. And for what? Merely having been born. So, even though I like to think there might be a creator/sustainer of the Universe, I sure don't want it to be Yahweh!
I find your comments to be very interesting. It sounds like you are actually describing the God(s) of Adventism--not the Bible. Jesus actually spoke more about hell than He did about heaven.
According to the Bible, Jesus IS God. So, if you like Jesus, then you do like the God of the Bible--because He is Him! If you don't like the God of the Bible, then read what Jesus said, because He is the God of the Bible. Jesus is the one and only true God. He took His own wrath upon Himself, in order that we might be saved from our sins against His perfect holiness. Because of His incredible love for us, He took the punishment that we deserved, so that we could become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21).
So, Jesus is not some "lesser god" running "interference" with God--there are not multiple, separate gods like Adventism taught us. There is only one true God, and Jesus Christ IS the one true God. That is what the true Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches, unlike the false "Trinity" that Adventism taught us.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on November 30, 2008) |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 553
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 7:05 pm: | |
Joyce, please please please don't be offended, but the reason I asked that question is because of something I read. There was a person who couldn't commit her life to Christ because she had been to palm readers and fortune tellers - which, of course, is part of the occult. A Christian friend bound the demons in the name of Jesus (speaking out loud in her presence) and then she was able to accept Jesus.
ALL of us who've been Adventists have been in Satan's kingdom of darkness. I've felt his power come over my mind two or three times as I was studying my way out of Adventism. When that happened, I couldn't make any sense whatsoever of what I was reading in the Bible. I prayed, but nothing happened. Then the friend (whom the Lord had fast and pray for me to bring me out of the SDA church) prayed for me in the name of Jesus and immediately the weird "fog" shrouding my mind lifted and I was able to understand the Bible again.
The pastor of the church where I go, preached a good sermon today, touching a little on this topic. He's been preaching through the book of Ephesians and now he's preaching on Ephesians 6 where it talks about spiritual warfare. First he went to John 8:31-41 where Jesus is telling those people who believed Him that "you shall know the truth and the truth will make you free."
They protested that, saying they weren't in bondage to anyone.
Jesus told them that "whoever commits sin is a slave to sin" and that "if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."
Today's sermon should be online in a day or two. It's called "Truth As Armor" You will be able to find it at www.trail.org
We are definitely in a war over our souls, whether we like it or not. I heard a joke which goes: "how do you know when the devil is lying? Answer: his lips are moving." Satan doesn't ever tell a truth unless it is to promote a bigger lie.
Joyce; consider this. God created us. Therefore He knows what will make us happy. He loves us. Therefore being in Heaven with Him will make us happier than our wildest imagination here can portray. The Bible says: "He Who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?" (Romans 8:32)
My view of what's happening/happened in this world is just from my tiny little finite point of view. God, Who's infinite, sees all things as they really are. |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 960
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 7:12 pm: | |
Joyce, Yes, I do really feel/believe God is the only trustworthy One in the universe, in addition to believing that is what the Bible teaches.
I understand how some of the things God did in Bible times (mostly Old Testament but some New Testament) can cause doubts. Yet John 3:16 says that God loved the world so much He gave His only Son - that isn't Jesus running interference for God. As Jeremy explained, the Triune God is One in everything. While Jesus was on Earth, He said many times He was there to show us the Father, and said if a person has seen Jesus, he has seen the Father. I will never have answers to all questions, but they are not doubts for me because I believe God is real and trustworthy.
Besides the faith God has placed in me and a changed heart that I can't deny, here is my logic (which could be seen as flawed or circular reasoning, but it works for me): It makes no sense to me that something as complicated as life could exist without an intelligent designer, therefore God exists. Enough historical facts about Jesus on earth can be proven that I am willing to believe what the eye witness accounts say in the Bible. Jesus (according to the eye witness accounts in the Bible) accepted the Scriptures (at least the Old Testament) as true, accurate, and important. |
Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie
Post Number: 100
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 8:40 pm: | |
Raven, I agree with some of what you're saying. I feel like Life shows evidence of intelligence. I just don't know what that is, and see no particular evidence that the Bible is the 'true' explanation. Every culture has had it's sacred books and traditions, and their own explanations for the Universe. I wish I did know what the answer is, but I don't. And the answers I've been given so far don't satisfy.
Joyce |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9071
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 10:11 pm: | |
Joyce, it is not up to us to find and figure out God. God Himself is the One who must reveal Himself to us. So your deep confusion and frustration make total sense to me. Yet we can resist internalizing God's revelation of Himself to us.
When we were in Israel earlier this month, most of our group went and floated in the Dead Sea. It's impossible to sink in it, yet it's awkward and a little disconcerting (if not downright fearsome) to let yourself simply SIT DOWN and lift your legs in that water. When I did sit down—deliberately, not because I was deep enough to have to float—and deliberately lifted my feet off the bottom, I discovered I was floating with my head well above water, my toes out of the water on the other end, and it was much like simply sitting on water with no effort.
One woman in our group sent into the Sea, waded out to her knees, but never simply sat down. She said she didn't want to get her hair wet, so she didn't float. Well, her hair would NOT have gotten wet--but she was afraid of what might happen and was unwilling to risk trusting that the water would keep her buoyant just as it was keeping everyone around her buoyant. She totally missed the Dead Sea experience!
The burden is on God to reveal Himself. He asks us to be willing to act on that revelation—and He further gives us the faith to believe. If you can be willing to have your fear suspended and ask God to show you what is true and real and to give you the faith to believe if He is real, you will discover that He is teaching you truth and confirming Himself to you.
Jeremy's post above is exactly right. God is NOT vengeful. He cannot allow sin to exist eternally in His presence because sin is fatal and crippling. God, the Creator, took the death sentence He decreed on Himself in the person of Jesus. He redeemed humanity by becoming incarnate and as a man living on this broken earth and dying our death and conquering the power and the fear of death.
He gives us His life. He makes is possible for us to be redeemed and reconciled to Himself. He doesn't ask us to measure up. He asks us to accept His death in our place.
The "answer" you seek is not information. It is literally a Person—a Person who will never let you go, who will never let you out of His love, who will provide for you and keep His promises to you. And this Person chose to reveal Himself in two ways: His word and Jesus. Just as we buy a Steven Hawking book if we wish to read about the man Hawking and his particular understanding of the universe, so we read the Bible to learn the truth about its
Author.
Second-hand information is never as accurate or convincing as the Person's own words. The Bible is God's revelation of Himself and His salvation to the world.
Joyce, I'm truly sorry your life has been turned upside down. Yet I know that God is using this anchor-less time in your life to begin to recognize your deepest fears and to be willing to have them be healed and redeemed.
What you learned about God as an Adventist is not what God Himself has revealed about Himself.
Colleen |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9072
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 10:16 pm: | |
Joyce, I was sitting in church this morning, and the sermon on John 1:1-5 was absolutely riveting to me. For some reason, as I listened, you were profoundly on my mind. I was praying for you, and I knew that you need to hear the sermon I was hearing.
It is now online; please listen to it (or watch the video version). You can access it here: http://www.trinityonline.org/cgi-bin/MediaList.cgi?section=
It is today's sermon, November 30, and it is the first one on the list—"The Best Gift Ever". Gary Inrig is a teacher more than a preacher, and he is never trivial or shallow. He is brilliant but without being affected, condescending, or pompous.
Please listen!
Colleen |
|
